To find out more information on what has been happening from the side of the CSRA have a read here:
http://www.albertarifle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=86
http://www.albertarifle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=86
CSRA 2012 Schedule?
- Thread starter Winchester3030
- Start date
Thank you for shedding light on pretty much everything.
DaveMachine
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- That one place with a cowboy complex
Hopefully we get a good decision on the 19th with city council. I am really looking forward to shooting some CQB and 3-gun this summer.
Thanks for the update. I guess I'm one of those members that don't exist as I have never received any form of notice regarding the events that are detailed above. Just little tid bits by word of mouth. Talk is cheap and rarely accurate. In the past before all this came to light I was openly critical of the way APRA and some of the user groups within were conducting business. Did I ever get chastised for it! It would appear to me now I wasn't too far off as I obviously struck a nerve with the people involved.
Thanks to all within the CSRA who have made an effort these past months to resolve the issue at hand. It seems to be a hopeless situation however. I hope I'm proven wrong.
Nothing from the committee yet I take it? From what I can understand of this it is the committee that is holding things up at this point. I'm beginning to think the APRA books are in worse shape than the CSRA ones if the committee can't figure this out.
I believe you will find the APRA books are in much better order than those of of the CSRA, why don't you focus your attention on the subject at hand? The committee is still waiting for an official response in writing from the CSRA. Continued attacks by you is not helping your cause
Your're right...that's been my (small) experience with them (2005 World Masters). Try using "their" rules against them. I finally got a small measure of justice from them by threatening to go through the grievance procedure....
As frustrated as everyone is and perhaps some statements hold some validity, Rufous makes a good point that all these attacks against the people who can make or break the return of the CSRA surely isn't helping the situation. We all need to remember who is reading these posts.
If you, as the tenant, gave the money to the landlord, and the landlord didn't pay the owner of the building, the owner would not kick you out. The landlord is the one responsible. The landlord was representing the building owner. The landlord gave receipts to the tenant for rent paid, and then didn't direct the money properly to the owner... There are 3 entities involved.
BIG difference. The issue is between the building owner, and the landlord, NOT the tenant. And the CSRA members are the tenants.
Try to keep your analogy directly related.
As with all things, there are 2 sides to every story. But to punish 70-80 service rifle members, who knew nothing, is inappropriate at best.
All shooting sports are suffering as of late. We battle the general public, who are either ambivalent, or against guns to start with. We battle politicians, who will be swayed either way, with what they think will get them votes. We battle residential neighbourhoods. We battle bad publicity through the media.
Why do we need to battle fellow shooters? We are our own worst enemies.
BIG difference. The issue is between the building owner, and the landlord, NOT the tenant. And the CSRA members are the tenants.
Try to keep your analogy directly related.
As with all things, there are 2 sides to every story. But to punish 70-80 service rifle members, who knew nothing, is inappropriate at best.
All shooting sports are suffering as of late. We battle the general public, who are either ambivalent, or against guns to start with. We battle politicians, who will be swayed either way, with what they think will get them votes. We battle residential neighbourhoods. We battle bad publicity through the media.
Why do we need to battle fellow shooters? We are our own worst enemies.
So as members when you hold your AGM don't you look at the treasure's report?
Also how canthis happen? If you are a non prophet club don't you have to send a financial statement to the government? This seems to be a good example to make sure things are being done right in the club you belong to. A perfect example of buy a membership and never get involved?
Also how canthis happen? If you are a non prophet club don't you have to send a financial statement to the government? This seems to be a good example to make sure things are being done right in the club you belong to. A perfect example of buy a membership and never get involved?
Yes the CSRA screwed up, that has been admitted to and efforts to reorganize have been made. The CSRA has been totally up front and provided all information that it can to the APRA. The CSRA has offered to pay up but the APRA can't or will not even say what is owing. To resolve this situation the CSRA will do what ever it is asked to do within it's power to do so. The ball it completely in the court of the APRA at this time. And yes this is a perfect example of why members of clubs should be involved in the running of their clubs.
Perfect example of "buy a membership and never get involved".
And how is that any different than the other 90+% of members of EVERY gun club in Canada? Don't say it isn't, I've been around too long. Did the APRA have a 100% attendance record at the recent AGM?
Now that your little example of a renter not paying rent has been de-bunked; instead of you too pointing fingers, why not try to be part of the solution, rather than an accuser?
Why not demonstrate how to build, rather than blame and destroy?
Trouble is, there are only two entities here - the CSRA and the APRA (tenant and owner to use your analogy - the owner is also the landlord and the CSRA has not paid the rent). The CSRA is in an awkward position where APRA membership funds have not been forwarded to the APRA.
The membership of the CSRA is not being 'punished' by the APRA - it's a byproduct of the situation where their APRA membership is suspect, as the CSRA cannot verify that they are paid members of the APRA.
And actually there are three side to any story - yours, mine and the truth. Let this be worked out between the APRA and CSRA, not with innuendo in a public forum.
The membership of the CSRA is not being 'punished' by the APRA - it's a byproduct of the situation where their APRA membership is suspect, as the CSRA cannot verify that they are paid members of the APRA.
And actually there are three side to any story - yours, mine and the truth. Let this be worked out between the APRA and CSRA, not with innuendo in a public forum.
Well, no you are incorrect.
As I said, there are 3 entities. The APRA, the CSRA members as a whole club, and the CSRA president.
The CSRA club members = tenants.
The APRA = Owner.
CSRA president = landlord.
Follow so far?
The CSRA members (tenants) gave money to the president (landlord) who gave these same members (tenants) a receipt (APRA membersip cards that prove they paid their APRA membership dues to some representative of the APRA).
The president (landlord) supposedly did not turn over all dues. Repeat supposedly.
The APRA (owner) evicted the tenants (CSRA members) who gave their money in good faith to a representative of the APRA who was issuing the APRA membership cards.
BTW, the APRA cannot verify they weren't paid. (You brought it up)
And BTW, you can't come on here, along with "willytucker", put in your .02c worth and then say "Let this be worked out between the APRA and CSRA, not with innuendo in a public forum".
Incorrect, or factually wrong statements must be corrected.
There are many other issues, but how about working towards a solution, rather than accusations?
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how about working towards a solution, rather than accusations?
Exactly! one error in your above statement "the APRA cannot verify they weren't paid."
I believe the APRA does NOT have to prove anything here, it is 100% the responsibility of the offending group to prove (with receipts that they indeed paid the APRA over the last several years) Especially since the APRA has received admissions that said group were negligent with their payment The APRA also has an admission from the former "president" that he did not submit the fees in question and an admission by the acting executive that the fees were not actually paid.
NOW I refer you to the first statement quoted here!
Exactly! one error in your above statement "the APRA cannot verify they weren't paid."
I believe the APRA does NOT have to prove anything here, it is 100% the responsibility of the offending group to prove (with receipts that they indeed paid the APRA over the last several years) Especially since the APRA has received admissions that said group were negligent with their payment The APRA also has an admission from the former "president" that he did not submit the fees in question and an admission by the acting executive that the fees were not actually paid.
NOW I refer you to the first statement quoted here!
OK, so let's continue making accusations here on this board.
You say the above quote is an error:
It would be an error IF the APRA could PROVE they weren't paid. So I am asking, can the APRA prove they weren't paid? I don't know what is going on, you appear to be speaking on their behalf. So tell us, can they? You and Scout are making statements on this public board.
From what I can see, the CSRA isn't accusing anyone of anything, it is the APRA making unproven accusations, along with you two and willytucker.
The individual members received APRA membership cards, did they not? If it is like any other club, there is a path before the money makes it's way to the bank account of the club, different hands to pass through. However, is it the first time or junior club member's responsibility if the money, once given to the person who is handing out the cards, didn't make it to the bank of another governing body? I know some clubs have hundreds and hundreds of members, including some that are first time members and have never been a part of a gun club. Is it their responsibility to ensure the money they gave, when they received their card, goes into the bank? Hardly. It is those members who were locked/kicked out.
I'll repeat your above tidbit:
Sorry, what sort of backwards logic is this?
How do you even know there is an "offending" group, if the one making the accusations can't prove anything?I think even the most junior police officer is taught in cop school, that it is the one making an accusation, must be the one to prove there is an offense. Or am I wrong? Can any police officer on this board provide some insight?
"Have you been beating your wife and kids lately?"
"No"
"Not lately, well there you have it, an admission." "You, now have to prove you don't beat your wife and kids."
Better yet: "Witch, witch."
Again, finger pointing and accusations in the public area; why no work towards a solution?
Do the accusers have something to hide?
Do the accusers have something to gain?
Is there an ulterior goal?
It's only shooters that get hurt. Everyone loses.
The accusations continue, oh well......
Who gave the CSRA president the APRA membership books, year after year?
Where was the money, collected for APRA membership cards, supposed to be turned in to?
Had the CSRA president ever given funds previously to the APRA for APRA membership cards sold?
Who's executive meetings did the CSRA president attend?
Who's executive was the CSRA president voting on?
Either way, this is supposedly the actions of one person. It appears the entire club membership was punished, and they knew nothing of the circumstances. To suggest the club members were also responsible, because they didn't know, is folly. And you might not want to go down that path here.
Again, and I've asked this how many times now, why not fix the problem instead of pointing blame at the shooters trying to offer a solution and move forward.
Added:
Instead of being caught up in the blame and semantics game, why not try to get more shooters out to the range?
Why not get beyond this stuff, quit punishing shooters, and get on with it? Get on with rebuilding and shooting.
Service rifle shooters take a hit wherever they go. Why not rise above that, and create shooting comradeship between all the shooting disciplines?
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