Daniel Defense AR vs Norinco

michaelsabre said:
My $0.02:

The majority of AR jams are because of the original design. You can spend 1M on your AR however SKS will still beat it on reliability - M43 is simly much easier on rifle action than SS109.

On the quality, you guys may want to talk to CanAm, whi has been in more Chinese military factories than any other Canadian.
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My $0.02

You have no clue what you're talking about. Firearms don't "jam" for starters, and the original design is/was sound. Plenty of evidence to support that. 50 year old myths and BS stories populate the uneducated minds as fact.

TDC
 
enefgee said:
That's a sack of pompous, bullsh*t. The odds of you ever relying on an AR for anything more than bragging rights are far, far longer than the odds of you getting a letter from the Feds after the next election, telling you AR's are now prohib and it's time for you to drop it off at the local gunshop for destruction. Norinco sells the products of various state owned factories, at this point in time I'm pretty sure there are at least 3 distinct factories producing "Norinco" AR15's so exactly which factory do you suppose produced your 3 samples, and do you suppose all factories produce identical products? Also, is the lack of a peel washer really an indication of poor QC - because I've seen some pretty spendy (comparatively) AR's with some sh*t that would send you shrieking into the night. Bushmaster with a loose gas block ($1200), S&W with an unstaked (not improperly staked, totally unstaked) gas key($1500), and then of course there are the disasters we saw here from the early NEA situation($1000+) (and I write that truly hopeful that NEA's issues are done with). As far as metallurgy goes, there are still people who will try to sell the idea that Chinese metallurgy is inferior, it is not, as has been proven, the Chinese military industrial complex is as capable as any in the world, and since China has no civillian/commercial sales outlet in it's home market, that includes the stuff that gets exported to Canadian civvies. The idea that "they" don't 'list what their rifles are made of' is much more to do with the way the rifles are imported (several smallish importers purchasing rifles without support, on spec). The fact is that "Norinco" really isn't geared toward selling products to civillians, it is geared toward selling complete armies to client nations, this contributes to the lack of advertising bling and full page spreads in your favorite tacticool magazine. The US ban doesn't help either. From day 1 that these things became available until today I have not heard of a single catastrophic failure, or for that matter major component failure (BCG/Bolt/barrel/trigger group/selector/etc) in a Norinco branded AR15 - if you have please provide first hand details and/or pictures. It's been a few years now, and at least one shooter has gone over 10,000 rounds without failure and many are in the 3-5,000 round range without a serious malfunction - if there was a serious defect in materials it would have shown up long ago. The reality is they work, they cost less, they aren't as well finished but still manage to be acceptably accurate, and you personally are looking for reasons to justify the fact that you chose to buy a more expensive version of the same rifle - that's your choice, but quit trying to bullsh*t people into believing that the rifle they purchased is somehow a risk to their safety. Are they a DD/LMT/Stag etc? No. Are they unsafe? No. If I owned one (at the present time I do not, but I have had 2 of them, and I've had 2 Colts as well, by the way) would I trade it for a shiney new Bushmaster? No effing way.
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TDC said:
My $0.02

You have no clue what you're talking about. Firearms don't "jam" for starters, and the original design is/was sound. Plenty of evidence to support that. 50 year old myths and BS stories populate the uneducated minds as fact.

TDC
Click to expand...

You have no clue what you're talking about. Firearms do "jam" for starters, and the original design isn't/wasn't sound. Plenty of evidence to support that. 50 year old myths and BS stories populate the uneducated minds as fact.

:dancingbanana:
 
enefgee said:
That's a sack of pompous, bullsh*t. The odds of you ever relying on an AR for anything more than bragging rights are far, far longer than the odds of you getting a letter from the Feds after the next election, telling you AR's are now prohib and it's time for you to drop it off at the local gunshop for destruction. Norinco sells the products of various state owned factories, at this point in time I'm pretty sure there are at least 3 distinct factories producing "Norinco" AR15's so exactly which factory do you suppose produced your 3 samples, and do you suppose all factories produce identical products? Also, is the lack of a peel washer really an indication of poor QC - because I've seen some pretty spendy (comparatively) AR's with some sh*t that would send you shrieking into the night. Bushmaster with a loose gas block ($1200), S&W with an unstaked (not improperly staked, totally unstaked) gas key($1500), and then of course there are the disasters we saw here from the early NEA situation($1000+) (and I write that truly hopeful that NEA's issues are done with). As far as metallurgy goes, there are still people who will try to sell the idea that Chinese metallurgy is inferior, it is not, as has been proven, the Chinese military industrial complex is as capable as any in the world, and since China has no civillian/commercial sales outlet in it's home market, that includes the stuff that gets exported to Canadian civvies. The idea that "they" don't 'list what their rifles are made of' is much more to do with the way the rifles are imported (several smallish importers purchasing rifles without support, on spec). The fact is that "Norinco" really isn't geared toward selling products to civillians, it is geared toward selling complete armies to client nations, this contributes to the lack of advertising bling and full page spreads in your favorite tacticool magazine. The US ban doesn't help either. From day 1 that these things became available until today I have not heard of a single catastrophic failure, or for that matter major component failure (BCG/Bolt/barrel/trigger group/selector/etc) in a Norinco branded AR15 - if you have please provide first hand details and/or pictures. It's been a few years now, and at least one shooter has gone over 10,000 rounds without failure and many are in the 3-5,000 round range without a serious malfunction - if there was a serious defect in materials it would have shown up long ago. The reality is they work, they cost less, they aren't as well finished but still manage to be acceptably accurate, and you personally are looking for reasons to justify the fact that you chose to buy a more expensive version of the same rifle - that's your choice, but quit trying to bullsh*t people into believing that the rifle they purchased is somehow a risk to their safety. Are they a DD/LMT/Stag etc? No. Are they unsafe? No. If I owned one (at the present time I do not, but I have had 2 of them, and I've had 2 Colts as well, by the way) would I trade it for a shiney new Bushmaster? No effing way.
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Every single rifle you mentioned as an argument for norinco's qc is bottom of the barrel... I never once said bushmaster or s and w or nea was better then norinco as they are all junky toys. The onus is not on me to prove what their metallurgy is, it is unknown to me an you and likely changes from lot to lot.
Btw I dont read or do anything tacticool, and in no way feel the need to justify spending my hard earned cash on proper rifles. I know what is the base level of quality that I want/need and I don't go below that.

If you have little money and want to reenact cod at the range the norc is perfect for you and ypu should buy 3! But please don't compare it to rifles that are engineered and executed with very little compromise and very few corners cut if any.


I f**king hate this attitude I'm arguing with, we get it you love your 700 dollar ar, and get offended when people call it what it is, a cheaply made mass produced and inconsistent rifle. But please stop call your sheep a wolf you are fooling no one but yourself comparing it to top tier ar's. And I suppose that's what this comes down to, dudes without cash trying to make themselves feel better by telling others they don't need a better rifle then a norc in Canada...
 
Wow all the emotion and no substance...........

Hey guys the Norcs are okay for what they are, but they are a far cry from any Bushmaster or colt.

List off the specs on the NORCS PLEASE?

Here is a hint:

What barrel steel?
Are the parts even Milspec/Commercial or standardize for that matter?

Personal observation

Why are so many Norcs I have seen with new Bolts and new triggers.etc etc.?

Hey the gun is alright and great for the money, but my conclusion is it is a BARN SPEC build. It is definitely not a gun I would buy for serious use without seriously upgrading it.Many of the models I have seen have many problems with taking various magazines that are stanag standard etc etc...and problems with swapping out pistol grips and other parts. I think we need new Mods to police the black rifle section here that really have a more in-depth knowledge of the AR line and about the manufacturing process as well.
 
Loving my ignore list right now...

Thanks to Ganderite for pursuing this and being one of the few here who posts based on facts and evidence. I'm looking forward to the final range report.
 
michaelsabre said:
You have no clue what you're talking about. Firearms do "jam" for starters, and the original design isn't/wasn't sound. Plenty of evidence to support that. 50 year old myths and BS stories populate the uneducated minds as fact.

:dancingbanana:
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Please explain why you think the design is not sound. Or rather what elements of the rifles design are unsound?
 
MUGEN said:
An AR is an AR. As long as it is built to spec of the DRAWING (drawing includes dimension, tolerance and material specified) then it is an AR. The DD torture test video, in my opionion, only shows what an properly made AR can be up to. Can a Norc withstand the same? I believe so.
CGN just has too many no brainers here. BS everywhere. Moderator should acts more proactively.
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If Norc ARs were built to spec, then they would be the same as anything else built to spec.

But if they were built to spec, then aftermarket parts would automatically fit Norc ARs as well any DD or Stag or Colt.

But as everyone on this forum ought to be aware by this point, that is often not the case. Many parts do not drop in on Norc ARs.

So at the very least we know the dimensions are not correct. And there is no way to know what the materials are.

So why anyone would assume they are built to the TDP is absolutely beyond me. They clearly are not. They may run (although I have seen performance out of Norc ARs ranging from excellent to useless) but that does not mean they are built to spec.

I have seen Norc ARs that would not lock back on ANY mag. I can think of one that would not lock back which the owner insisted "ran perfectly" despite this...because it didn't affect him as he only ever used it plinking off a bench. He still insists it is "flawless". He gets a stoppage every 5 rounds, and his gun is perfect.

I have seen them run well and poorly, which is not surprising for Norinco anything. I have built a lot of Norinco guns and they do sometimes have good parts. But don't kid yourself...they are not out-of-the-box quality. They are a lottery ticket with decent odds.
 
Leibermuster said:
Wow all the emotion and no substance...........

Hey guys the Norcs are okay for what they are, but they are a far cry from any Bushmaster or colt.

List off the specs on the NORCS PLEASE?

Here is a hint:

What barrel steel?
Are the parts even Milspec/Commercial or standardize for that matter?

Personal observation

Why are so many Norcs I have seen with new Bolts and new triggers.etc etc.?

Hey the gun is alright and great for the money, but my conclusion is it is a BARN SPEC build. It is definitely not a gun I would buy for serious use without seriously upgrading it.Many of the models I have seen have many problems with taking various magazines that are stanag standard etc etc...and problems with swapping out pistol grips and other parts. I think we need new Mods to police the black rifle section here that really have a more in-depth knowledge of the AR line and about the manufacturing process as well.
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No one has said a Nork is better, we know its a $700 rifle and no one is disputing that ........But what will a "brand name" rifle do that a Nork wont ? I have seen plenty of top end AR's with different Bolts and triggers etc. as well as high end AR's with mag issuses (pssssst its usualy the mag its self not the gun) so dont even go there . They are made for millitary forces over the world ,Paraguay SF use them as well , you really dont they make them just for canada do you ?
It sounds like you have the Knowledge to answer the 10million Doller question

What will a "brand name" rifle do that a Nork wont?
 
I originally bought a Norc so my kids could learn on it...once they finished beating the crap out of it (disassy./reassy.) and knew the AR platform I sold it...they all have much better rifles now (Spikes/Colt/PSA) and fully appreciate them. Not knocking the Norc...it did its job.
 
BCboy said:
What will a "brand name" rifle do that a Nork wont?
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I know this wasn't directed at me but the Answer in my opinion is "not much for most recreational shooters".

I think the differences would likely become more apparent at high round count. I also think that you would find a greater frequency of factory issues. Finally, my experience with Norinco guns which is fairly extensive has led me to believe that their springs cannot be trusted. I have also found unpredictable porosity levels in their small parts.

So while I think the average plinker could pick one up and be relatively satisfied with the performance, there are performance gaps that would become apparent to higher volume shooters.
 
blaxsun said:
I'm seriously starting to feel dumber following this thread...
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Not me. I have learned a lot from this thread. Now I know that norinco ars are better than DD and the sks is better than both of them. where was this thread two years ago when I sold my sks d and bought a DD v1. I feel like such a sucker now.
 
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