Defense against BEARS.

=(M-1)= said:
I prefer the pistol grip over having a stock, and not because its tacticool, but because your shoulder doesn’t get beat to death by the magnum loads, so it ups the cycle rate in which you can accurately fire, or so I have found. And no I'm not referring to dead on accuracy, just good enough to hit a paint can at 40-50 yards with a slug, or hammering off a wall of 000 led at 30 yards.:dancingbanana: long range shooting just isn’t necessary for a shot gun in my opinion, if its range you need, I bring a rifle.

:)
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Prefer pistol grip so it doesn't hurt your shoulder? Wall of OOO?

Have you ever killed a bear?

You should point your sister in law to someone that can actually help her train for a bear encounter, using appropriate weapons. I have no faith whatsoever that you will be able to equip her with anything other than a false sense of hope.
 
I'd love to give you some advice Troutseeker, but I have a long family history of being undergunned for bears:redface:.
My Grandfather shot one with a Model 99 Savage in .22 Hi-Power as did my uncle:confused:. The same uncle shot another one with his M870 Rem 12ga 23/4 chamber 30 in barrel full choke duck/goose gun using slugs and 00 buck, with a mag plugged to 2 rds and no strap on ammo pouches, flashlite holders, pistol grips, or any other gee-haws:rolleyes:. Another uncle popped a real big blackie with a 6.5mm Carcano of all things:eek:. And two more used a .243 Win and a .257 Roberts:eek::eek:. I'm a little more wussy, so I stepped up to a .303 British Jungle Carbine (less than max load and only 5 rds in the mag I must confess) when I shot my 6.5ft cinammon boar):).
Bears are getting a lot tougher nowadays, and they seem to be a lot more familiar with ballistics tables too, so I'm upgunning to a .30-06 Garand with 165gr handloads as my carry gun this year:p.
 
Gatehouse said:
You should point your sister in law to someone that can actually help her train for a bear encounter, using appropriate weapons. I have no faith whatsoever that you will be able to equip her with anything other than a false sense of hope.
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That's very good advice for the OP after sifting through this nonsense.
 
98%Brent said:
How did they find all those bullets in the dead bear? They must have sliced it like lunch meat to dig them all out since x-rays for bears hadn't began until at least the start of the depression. Then bear spas and alternative treatment facilities started popping up.

Moral of the story is, don't shoot a bear in the ass, believe half of what you see and nothing of what you hear.
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The Brits were using X-ray on wounded soldiers during the Boer war.
 
=(M-1)= said:
I prefer the pistol grip over having a stock, and not because its tacticool, but because your shoulder doesn’t get beat to death by the magnum loads, so it ups the cycle rate in which you can accurately fire, or so I have found. And no I'm not referring to dead on accuracy, just good enough to hit a paint can at 40-50 yards with a slug, or hammering off a wall of 000 led at 30 yards QUOTE]

At first I thought you were serious, then it all seemed like good fun. Now after reading that statement, I am quite certain you are now just trolling for controversy and you really have no clue about shotguns. Faster rate of aimed fire with a pistol grip ?? accurate enough to only be able to hit a paint can at 40 - 50 yards?? Get a grip. Now you're wasting everyone's time.
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purple said:
I'd love to give you some advice Troutseeker, but I have a long family history of being undergunned for bears:redface:.
My Grandfather shot one with a Model 99 Savage in .22 Hi-Power as did my uncle:confused:. The same uncle shot another one with his M870 Rem 12ga 23/4 chamber 30 in barrel full choke duck/goose gun using slugs and 00 buck, with a mag plugged to 2 rds and no strap on ammo pouches, flashlite holders, pistol grips, or any other gee-haws:rolleyes:. Another uncle popped a real big blackie with a 6.5mm Carcano of all things:eek:. And two more used a .243 Win and a .257 Roberts:eek::eek:. I'm a little more wussy, so I stepped up to a .303 British Jungle Carbine (less than max load and only 5 rds in the mag I must confess) when I shot my 6.5ft cinammon boar):).
Bears are getting a lot tougher nowadays, and they seem to be a lot more familiar with ballistics tables too, so I'm upgunning to a .30-06 Garand with 165gr handloads as my carry gun this year:p.
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Thanks, but this is all very upsetting. Now I am more confused than ever. Has you illustrate poignantly with your tale, it does appear that bears are getting thougher as decades pass... I am starting to believe that my .300WSM may be marginal!

I wonder if Gatehouse still has his spear????:eek:
 
Ok. here’s the deal all you =(M-1)= haters out there.:nest: I don’t have a bigger more powerful firearm than a 12 gauge 3" magnum 8 shot defender. hence why I support the shotgun end of the spectrum, just like ford guys support fords, My shotgun is all I have with some punch to it. the rest is all light cal. semi autos. I have just got back into guns recently and am hoping to get out hunting sometime soon. consequently no body me or my sister in law knows, has anything bigger than my shotgun. I'm sure you all have three .416 rem mags in your collection, and probably a couple of .458's rem. mags. and atleast one Macmillan .50BMG, and perhaps a a few of you have Dantel Mechem NTW 20mm. And I'm sure you have all killed 4 or 5 bear of every different size and shape, and did it standing on your head. But I just have a shot gun, and that’s it for the time being. my sister in laws other option is to use a .44 magnum pistol. WHAT WHOULD YOU CHOOSE?? I have never hunted a bear, because I don’t have a big boar, nore do I plan on getting one. I plan on getting a Norinco M305 and perhaps a .300 win. mag. long range marksmen rifle. Because I don’t hunt bear I don’t need your XM-109 25mm payload rifle. I mostly just like varmint and small predator hunting. So no I don’t know a lot about bear except what I read, heard, or seen in my few encounters . (hence why I'm posting a thread asking for your opinion, and offering mine, I'm not here telling you how it is. unlike certain people.) and no I don’t use a butt stock on my shot gun, I don’t F'-ing need it, I can shoot fine without it, and it DOES hurt less after shooting off three dozen shells, and it fits better in a back pack when I don’t foresee a need for it. Yes I prefur to have more shots in my fire arm than 4, Why??? because as so many of you have pointed out, its best to wait until the Bear is close before you fire, so you get a good clean shot with what you have. Well if you have ten shots you can start shooting much earlier. And maybe have one or two left after the bear gets you, that’s when its so good to have a loaded rifle not an empty one. And playing dead only works if the bear is not killing you for food, so yes even a tomahawk, pepper spray, road flair, pocket knife or sharp stick has its place when its your ass on the line. But that is just my humble OPINION. So chill out, take a pill, stop puffing up, I'm not a threat to you alpha male status.
Hunting and Sporting Arms hunting firearms -we are seriously... fun? :confused:
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The handgun option has the advantage that the gun is always with you when you need it. It's not left in the cabin, the tent, or leaning against a rock behind the bear that suddenly appeared out of nowhere. The downside is that it is much more difficult to shoot well, and compared to a long gun it lacks power, so it's bullet must be placed with greater precision. I would sooner see your sister in law armed with a .30/30 she can shoot well under any circumstances, than a big bore she cannot. The implicit danger of the M-305 or the 12 ga is that the guns are heavy enough, and shotgun ammo bulky enough, that the guns get will be left in the tent once she becomes complacent after not seeing a bear after a few days. And she might stay there a month and not see one, or she might see a half dozen within a mile of her camp on the helicopter ride in.

Problem bears are often the juvenile males who are trying to make a place for themselves in the world, and like human teenagers sometimes have a chip on their shoulder. The chances are, if she doesn't seek out a close range encounter with a bear, she won't have one, but the possibility exits. If she has a problem, the bear she has to shoot might weight 300 pounds, or it might weigh 1500. All bears of all species have distinct personalities, compared to a herd of antelope lets say, who are essentially clones of one another, and who act and react in a predictable manner. That is one of the challenges to knowing how a bear might react in any given situation. When you think he'll do this or that, he'll do something that hasn't occurred to you.

If you haven't already, get the books on bear attacks by James Garry Shelton, he has a set of 3 published, and the book "Bear Attacks, Their Causes and Avoidance" by Stephen Herrero. These 4 should be mandatory ready by anyone who intends to work alone in bear country. Shelton's books might be more suitable to her immediate needs, although he straight up states that he has no polar bear knowledge. Herrero and his son have both been to Churchill.

In the meantime, talk to the girl, and find out from her the general area where she will be working, the time of year she will be in camp, the duration of her stay, the number of people involved on the ground, and a rough idea of the budget for the exercise. Will she have helicopter support? Will she have an ATV or Rhino type vehicle? If she is near a lake or river, will she have a boat or canoe? How far inland will she be working, or is she right on the coast? Does she have any idea how bad the bugs will be, how strong the winds can get, or that it can snow in mid July when a storm comes off the bay?

The biggest problem that I can foresee for her is that once she has become focused on her work, she could be oblivious to what is happening around her. This can result in not only bear problems, but weather and tide problems as well, resulting in being cut off from her camp and food for some period of time, resulting in discomfort, and in extreme cases loss of life, particularly if she gets wet and then the temperature drops.
 
Boomer said:
The handgun option has the advantage that the gun is always with you when you need it. It's not left in the cabin, the tent, or leaning against a rock behind the bear that suddenly appeared out of nowhere.
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I resemble this remark. :redface: When you're out there, temptation is to leave the shotty laying on your backpack and work without them weighing you down. A way around this would be one of those tactical slings that harnesses the gun to your body. Haven't found an ideal yet, but the Specter CQB looks compelling. Also, side-saddle ammo carriers seem like a PITA when slug across my body. They poke me. Think about a 21" barrel and definitely ghost ring or at least iron sights. Longer barrels are less loud by a factor of about 10 in intensity, more sight radius and easier to shoot. I've shot 14" and they are no picnic at all: unruly things compared to 18" or, even better, 21".

Nothing worse than juggling hammer, clipboard, compass, pencil, measuring tape, etc etc with a shotgun in one arm or sliding off your shoulder all the time.

Boomer said:
Problem bears are often the juvenile males who are trying to make a place for themselves in the world, and like human teenagers sometimes have a chip on their shoulder.
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We had an issue when a juvie kept dragging mom along when he kept investigating our camp. She'd hang out back while curious George had to come see.

Handguns need practice, but I can see good reason to have one on the hip.
 
Boomer said:
Problem bears are often the juvenile males who are trying to make a place for themselves in the world, and like human teenagers sometimes have a chip on their shoulder.
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I have seen this with Black Bears, and the last place we lived back in Port Alberni we had a Mom and juvenile lurking around the back of our townhouse. She had two cubs but a big local Male bear killed one of them.

The cub would go up a tree next to the house and refuse to come down for hours leaving her to get stuck doing guard duty at the bottom until he felt like coming down (see dark spot in tree). Not a good situation given the fact the place was full of nosy kids and stupid parents that would hover trying to take pics, etc...Darwin award candidates. :rolleyes:

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I'm thinking that if I'm in the back woods and I come across a LARGE bear and I DON'T have my nikes on then I would prefer to have my S&W 460mag with 350grain HP's, 5 rounds at close range will do some damage and maybe enough for me to HA out of there!! A moss 500 defender with slugs will do the same thing !!!!!!!!!!!:shotgun: G:
 
You guys are wasting your breath. This guy claims he can shoot better and longer with a pistol grip shotgun and 3 inch magnum slugs. Good luck with that. You must have superhuman grip, and wrists bulgin with muscles. I don't doubt you can shoot birdshot all day with a pistol grip but aiming a shot is not nearly as practical, and follow up shots would never be faster with a pistol grip. And one you start shooting 3 inch buckshot or slugs there is no way in hell you can shoot more and be more accurate with a pistol grip. You can argue with me but nothing you can say will make me believe you. Just like Santa clause your stories sound like fairy tales.
 
mlehtovaara said:
You guys are wasting your breath. This guy claims he can shoot better and longer with a pistol grip shotgun and 3 inch magnum slugs. Good luck with that. You must have superhuman grip, and wrists bulgin with muscles. I don't doubt you can shoot birdshot all day with a pistol grip but aiming a shot is not nearly as practical, and follow up shots would never be faster with a pistol grip. And one you start shooting 3 inch buckshot or slugs there is no way in hell you can shoot more and be more accurate with a pistol grip. You can argue with me but nothing you can say will make me believe you. Just like Santa clause your stories sound like fairy tales.
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Un believable, you just don’t quit do you? well READ MY POST AGAIN, I never once said it was more accurate than shooting with the butt on the rifle. I said it was more accurate to fire rapidly. And it is, when you use buckshot, and shoot as fast as you can, because your not getting hammered by recoil, ever notice how much more manageable your shotguns recoil is when you shoot it from the hip? or have you ever even tried it? I've fired a lot of fully automatic rifles and sub machine guns in my time, and trust me, most of the larger ones you cant fire more than a burst without muzzle rise taking over. but if you shoot from the hip, its easy to lay off a full mag, well when you have a pistol grip on your shotgun, you don’t need to fire from the hip, you can raise it up and aim, and you get to enjoy the reduced effects of recoil, just be sure to hold it a good foot away from your face, or you’ll lose teeth.
Furthermore, I actually dont need the butt on the rifle to hit a target paint can at 40-50yards. But no I'm not blasting away as fast as I can with slugs hitting the can, I CAN however hit and miss it off and on with one shot every three or so seconds which is about as fast as I can accurately fire that shotgun at a longer range. having the butt on makes this easier to hit but it quickly gets to be painful, this is what slows down my shooting and makes me just want to stop. However with the duel pistol grips, I push forward on the front grip, and hold steady on the rear,( it feels like your trying to pull the shotgun apart, it can only be done properly with duel pistol grips) this distributes the initial impact of the shot onto the fore grip, and the recoil naturally follows through applying force to the rear grip (Equal impact distribution) I can shoot like this all day with padded weight lifting gloves. Its what works for me. But I doubt its better for just a few shots at a bear than a full stock. but since I shoot my shotgun quite often at the range, and carry it for bear defense only once every second blue moon. I prefer to have pistol grips on it. And its lack of weight and bulk is much easier to pack with you rather than be left at camp as "Boomer" points out. I hope this clears this up for you, I'm really not trying to misslead anyone. I just dont always explain things in this much detail, or get flamed quite this bad on account.
 
It's irrelevant what you find easier to shoot with. It is relevant what your sister in law is comfortable with.

I still recommend that you get her some training with someone that actually has knowledge of bears, or get her to post here herself.
 
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