Did you notice how AR is about to be prohibited?

[guess_kto]

6-7 million in the Ukrainian genocide

Fake that is currently promoted. Population increased in 30s. Was there a problem with food? Yes, but not limited to Ukrainians and not even to USSR. Start digging and you will find out the truth.

As for AR15, only dumb people cannot see the ban in the current bill.

1. 12(9) is limited to restricted guns that cannot be non-restricted. This means AR and handguns. Tip: compare 12(8) vs 12(9).
2. 12(9) allowed ATT along with 858 and swiss (3 sections added as exclusion, but we know only 2 guns for only 2 other section, but not 12(9))
3. Auto ATT is left for restricted and prohibited handguns, but not for 12(9), so 12(9) is unlikely to be a handgun.

Therefore, we have only one option left for 12(9): AR15.

Or, if you an idiot, you can assume thst all thosd changes for the introduction of 12(9) and ATT amendments were done for no particular reason without any gun in mind + AR will always stay restricted, because for some reasons the regulstions that took over orders of council cannot be changed... unlike real ways thst also require voting while regs do not

 

[Hilo71]

Fake that is currently promoted. Population increased in 30s. Was there a problem with food? Yes, but not limited to Ukrainians and not even to USSR. Start digging and you will find out the truth.

As for AR15, only dumb people cannot see the ban in the current bill.

1. 12(9) is limited to restricted guns that cannot be non-restricted. This means AR and handguns. Tip: compare 12(8) vs 12(9).
2. 12(9) allowed ATT along with 858 and swiss (3 sections added as exclusion, but we know only 2 guns for only 2 other section, but not 12(9))
3. Auto ATT is left for restricted and prohibited handguns, but not for 12(9), so 12(9) is unlikely to be a handgun.

Therefore, we have only one option left for 12(9): AR15.

Or, if you an idiot, you can assume thst all thosd changes for the introduction of 12(9) and ATT amendments were done for no particular reason without any gun in mind + AR will always stay restricted, because for some reasons the regulstions that took over orders of council cannot be changed... unlike real ways thst also require voting while regs do not

....

 

[BattleRife]

While I don't disagree that the Liberals would like to move the AR-15 to prohibited status, the base concept of this thread, that 12(9) must be directed at the AR because of the reference to a registration certificate, is baloney.

Any firearm may be declared prohibited by order in council, and at that point the gun becomes subject to registration, and a certificate is issued. Once an owner has a registration certificate, he is grandfathered by clause 12(9).

 

[H Wally]

I tend to agree that the AR is in line for the cutting block - the libs have wanted to get it from the start, and giving the RCMP the power to reclassify firearms as they wish.... we all know what would come after that.

I'm assuming that their plan is to get the current bill through in the hopes that the laws aren't repealed next election so the RCMP can keep chipping away at ownership while we try to get the conservatives to do something constructive. The liberal game definitely seems to be to choke ownership out and establish a "new normal" wherein semi-autos and handguns in private hands are inconceivable and bolt/break actions are tightly controlled at best. If I had to guess their dream would be outright total prohibition, but the small parts of their minds that are still in touch with reality are focused on eliminating handguns and semi autos. By only banning two guns currently, but setting the stage for the RCMP to run rampant down the road, they're leaving a wound that'll keep bleeding the gun community even after they're voted out of power.

That said, we have a chance to turn it around on them, or get it repealed next election. In a manner of speaking it's quite a good thing that they've done this, as there's no question whatsoever what they're up to, and the gun community has rapidly come together and become self aware over the last 15 years or so. If we can get our organizations all pointing in the same direction we can likely actually make some victories.

 

[Brian46]

I tend to agree that the AR is in line for the cutting block - the libs have wanted to get it from the start, and giving the RCMP the power to reclassify firearms as they wish.... we all know what would come after that.

I'm assuming that their plan is to get the current bill through in the hopes that the laws aren't repealed next election so the RCMP can keep chipping away at ownership while we try to get the conservatives to do something constructive. The liberal game definitely seems to be to choke ownership out and establish a "new normal" wherein semi-autos and handguns in private hands are inconceivable and bolt/break actions are tightly controlled at best. If I had to guess their dream would be outright total prohibition, but the small parts of their minds that are still in touch with reality are focused on eliminating handguns and semi autos. By only banning two guns currently, but setting the stage for the RCMP to run rampant down the road, they're leaving a wound that'll keep bleeding the gun community even after they're voted out of power.

That said, we have a chance to turn it around on them, or get it repealed next election. In a manner of speaking it's quite a good thing that they've done this, as there's no question whatsoever what they're up to, and the gun community has rapidly come together and become self aware over the last 15 years or so. If we can get our organizations all pointing in the same direction we can likely actually make some victories.

It needs to be show that prohibition is only about not having to offer a buy back of currently legally possessed firearms.

Equate it to the government all of a sudden saying you can't build a house on land you paid for and that when you die it is forefit to the government at zero cost.

 

[Brian46]

While I don't disagree that the Liberals would like to move the AR-15 to prohibited status, the base concept of this thread, that 12(9) must be directed at the AR because of the reference to a registration certificate, is baloney.

Any firearm may be declared prohibited by order in council, and at that point the gun becomes subject to registration, and a certificate is issued. Once an owner has a registration certificate, he is grandfathered by clause 12(9).

And when you die they are all forfeit as I see no provision for a family member to be grandfathered to maintain possession. In one generation all the guns will be turned in and smelted with no compensation being paid

 

[RyoTHC]

I bet you did not. Took me a while. We all expected AR to be listed instead we have swiss 12 (14) and cz 12(10).

But a new section 12 (9) applies to new prohibition by name via regulation (stroke of a pen) and that section grandfathering requires a registration certificate. There is only one long gun type that has certificate for every gun of that type, and this gun type is.... yup, AR15!

Remember a story "first they come after.." This new bill creates everything to prohibit AR in a jiffy, but it is not obvious or explicit, and I can bet that's what that section is there for.

Putting AR explicitly will cause too much noise now, but once the law is in, it will be prescribed as prohibited without even MPs involved. Target achieved!

I really wish more folks in the gun community shared the same thinking as you and I, too many AR owners I've spoke to are not concerned since they didnt have a cz or a swiss and didn't shoot with people who did.. but it's dividing the community taking small groups at a time so we don't fight together!! power only comes in numbers, otherwise it's an illusion.

 

[redshooter]

I really wish more folks in the gun community shared the same thinking as you and I, too many AR owners I've spoke to are not concerned since they didnt have a cz or a swiss and didn't shoot with people who did.. but it's dividing the community taking small groups at a time so we don't fight together!! power only comes in numbers, otherwise it's an illusion.

I have yet to meet an AR-15, or owner of similar rifles that isn't concerned. If you actually meet someone who claims it's not likely to happen just remind them that it already did. All one needs to do is google the list of Prohibited rifles. What they will find is that pretty much ALL "Assault Weapons" (in the Governments eyes not mine) commonly available in the early 90's were made Prohibited by OIC, but one. That Rifle is now restricted regardless of barrel length. To think it couldn't happen again is deluding ones self.

 

[Kosmonument]

I'm definitely concerned about any gun being banned that hasn't been proven to have been converted to full auto in Canada before. This all amounts to preventitive enforcement, AKA potential thought crime, the way it is being handled now.

 

[Rick911]

 

[King0265]

Well I’m confused, disgusted and fed up...

 

[themarauder]

I'm definitely concerned about any gun being banned that hasn't been proven to have been converted to full auto in Canada before. This all amounts to preventitive enforcement, AKA potential thought crime, the way it is being handled now.

Why would it being illegally converted to full auto matter? The "easily" convertible thing shouldn't be a thing at all. It's full auto or it's not. Full stop.

 

[Cameron SS]

With respect, your analysis fails to precisely consider the wording and implications of the sections you are discussing.

I bet you did not. Took me a while. We all expected AR to be listed instead we have swiss 12 (14) and cz 12(10).

But a new section 12 (9) applies to new prohibition by name via regulation (stroke of a pen) and that section grandfathering requires a registration certificate. There is only one long gun type that has certificate for every gun of that type, and this gun type is.... yup, AR15!

Remember a story "first they come after.." This new bill creates everything to prohibit AR in a jiffy, but it is not obvious or explicit, and I can bet that's what that section is there for.

Putting AR explicitly will cause too much noise now, but once the law is in, it will be prescribed as prohibited without even MPs involved. Target achieved!

12 (8) vs 12 (9)

Somebody asked me why 12 (9) if 12 (8) already exists? Seems a duplicate, messy and useless.

Well, not quite.

12 (8) allows GF for restricted and NR.
12(9) is only for restricted (they promised to ban AR)
12 (9) is allowed (along with 858 and Swiss) to have ATT (see att changes in c71) while all other prohibited including 12 (8) cannot.

Once AR15 is banned, they will still give you ATT to keep you quiet, "you can still take it to the range as before"

That is another hint/red flag that AR15 is about to be banned in the upcoming regs along with 858 and swiss.

If 12.9 is only for restricted, then it is redundant to 12.8.

12.9 has nothing to do with 858s and Swiss Arms. Those firearms are uniquely and exclusively handled by 12.10-12.14.

You will note that ALL of the 12x sections of grandfathering require a registration certificate, even the ones that were prescribed prohibited by OIC from the NR class.

You will also note that unlike other grandfather sections, such as 12.2 and including 12.8, which required the certificate to have been held BEFORE the prohibition and grandfathering came into force, 12.9 does not specify the circumstances under which the certificate needs to have been held. Contrast that to 12.10 and 12.13 where the certificate only needs to be held or applied for before the prohibition comes into force.

12.9 is deliberately open ended, so that if any new firearm is prescribed to be grandfathered, they can also prescribe the registration certificate requirements at that time.

Unlike 12.8 which talks about a specific firearm being prescribed to prohibited, 12.9 confusingly references a prohibited class of firearms. It is unclear whether this means a new class of firearms separate from NR, RES, and Prohib, or some kind of sub class of prohib. More importantly, unlike section 12.8, which references a statutory authority to prescribe firearms to be prohibited, no such authority is referenced in 12.9. This is important because despite the existence of 12.9 as a grandfathering mechanism, without any statutory authority to issue a regulation in the first place, 12.9 can never actually be used to prescribe either a firearm, or a class of firearms, to be prohibited. No such statutory authority exists anywhere in the criminal code, the firearms act or bill c71.

All of this bleating about 12.9 and ARs is a waste of time, and a distraction from the legitimate issues with the bill.

Realistically, the only thing that 12.9 could possibly be used for is to grandfather owners of firearms that are already prohibited by OIC, but owned by people not currently eligible for grandfathering. The only problem with this theory is that I can't see the Liberals ever grandfathering an already prohibited firearm by regulation when the existing laws will let the gun be confiscated and the Liberals won't be directly responsible for it.

The only other theory I have on why 12.9 exists is based on speculation as to how the bill was written, and that's far more technical, wordy, complicated and boring.

 

[Cameron SS]

I'm definitely concerned about any gun being banned that hasn't been proven to have been converted to full auto in Canada before. This all amounts to preventitive enforcement, AKA potential thought crime, the way it is being handled now.

The idea of a gun being banned because it is 'readily convertible' stems from an old case called Hasselwander. When the judge created the concept of readily convertible, it was in the midst of a case where a regular cop, not a gun smith, was able to convert a firearm into full auto right there in the court room with a custom made part that was found in the possession of the accused.

The qualifier of 'within a relatively short period of time, with relative ease' was not really quantified, but looking at the facts in that case, it should be taken to meant in mere minutes, with simple or no tools, by an ordinary person.

Contrast that with R V Sinclair, where a gun was found NOT to be readily convertible, despite the RCMPs claims to the contrary, because RCMP gun smiths were unable to obtain the tools and parts required either from their extensive gun collection or from the manufacturer, or in one case, where it took them hours of work and custom machining with uncommon tools.

The problem with readily convertible, not being statutorily defined, is that the RCMP have been able to slowly expand the applicability of that phrase, and gun owners have let it go on unchallenged. Remember that the last great john browning once converted a lever action to full auto just to prove that it could be done.

Its certainly true that with enough time and resources, anything can be made full auto, but no judge would agree that infinite time and resources meets the 'readily convertible' doctrine.

If you agree that full auto should be prohibited, WHICH I DON'T, then the readily convertible doctrine can make sense without it being likened to thought crime.

If you have a standard AR with a semi auto only receiver and trigger mech, that gun is not readily convertible. Sure you could mill out the receiver and obtain a full auto trigger group, but thats not really going to happen in a relatively short period of time with relative ease.

Now if you have already milled out your receiver, and are in possession of the full auto trigger kit, and it simply isnt installed, then its pretty fair to say that this gun is readily convertible.

Personally, rather than charge with possession of a readily convertible prohib, they should charge you attempting to manufacture a full auto, but thats a harder case to prove and the Liberals and RCMP are just lazy.

 

[cr5]

I have zero interest in being grandfathered into a 12.anything category, even if they grandfather you into whatever category and let you continue to shoot at the range I can guarantee that will only be for a couple years then they'll change the rules and make it so all you have is a paperweight you can't shoot anymore.

We need to figure out a way to stop this whole process, next will be all the semi auto rifles, this is just the beginning. We're F'd if this goes through.

 

[Travis Bickle]

Meh, life is pretty short boys.
So is liberty in Canada it seems now.
I just picked up another AR. It's a Norinco DA556 I got for $450 shipped 1:9 twist.
I'm literally going to try and break it by putting 600 rounds through it in under 30 minutes and handling it as hard as I can just for fun and to see how tough the old Norcs really are. I'm also going to use it to recruit the potential PAL converts I bring to the range.

Many of us have already done a lot in this fight this round. It's about time to say the die is cast until the next election 2019 I'm starting to think.
Enjoy the sunset before she goes dark for a long time guys instead of bickering like idiots.

 

[cr5]

Meh, life is pretty short boys.
So is liberty in Canada it seems now.
I just picked up another AR. It's a Norinco DA556 I got for $450 shipped 1:9 twist.
I'm literally going to try and break it by putting 600 rounds through it in under 30 minutes and handling it as hard as I can just for fun. I'm also going to use it to recruit the potential PAL converts I bring to the range.

Many of us have already done a lot in this fight this round. It's about time to say the die is cast until the next election 2019 I'm starting to think.
Enjoy the sunset before she goes dark for a long time guys instead of bickering like idiots.

That sounds like a lot of fun.
Time to say F it and just enjoy what we have while we can and try to recruit more support. I'm always inviting new shooters out to my place to introduce them to guns. I sure hope we come out of this round with our current freedoms. The Gov is using crap that has been happening south of the border to save us from a problem that doesn't exist here.
F'n Turdeau has to go. He's an embarrassment to Canada and doing nothing to make Canada better.

 

[Travis Bickle]

F'n Turdeau has to go. He's an embarrassment to Canada and doing nothing to make Canada better.

Strongly agreed and not just because of Bill C71.
I can't think of any other single elected body that has done this much damage to Canada financially, publicly and by way of destroying liberty as this bunch of bozos.
2019 is going to be our only chance here.
If we get CPC we should be golden. If we get NDP, we will have to work even harder than now to tell them what they need to do to get our support (not likely here obviously), if we get another Liberal majority then I would say yes, yes we would be literally f**ked and time to start buying ABS and digging holes....

I have signed the petitions, made my voice clear from MP's to safety minister and back again receiving nothing but canned horse s**t up to now.
I'm just going to keep recruiting as hard as ever and enjoy what little time I have left with my hobby before the RCMP really start putting the boots on our necks.....

Start recruiting, educating and convincing everyone you know and their dogs to vote CPC in 2019. It's not going to be pretty for the next year guys. The pain is coming.

 

[Cameron SS]

Meh, life is pretty short boys.
So is liberty in Canada it seems now.
I just picked up another AR. It's a Norinco DA556 I got for $450 shipped 1:9 twist.
I'm literally going to try and break it by putting 600 rounds through it in under 30 minutes and handling it as hard as I can just for fun and to see how tough the old Norcs really are. I'm also going to use it to recruit the potential PAL converts I bring to the range.

Many of us have already done a lot in this fight this round. It's about time to say the die is cast until the next election 2019 I'm starting to think.
Enjoy the sunset before she goes dark for a long time guys instead of bickering like idiots.

Bill isn't even at committee yet. There is still a lot of work to be done. don't throw in the towel just yet. We can still bog them down with a 1000 amendments, and requests to attend committee meetings. Once its done committee and committee report is sent to the house, with or without amendment, then its pretty much a done deal. Senate win't going to do anything.

Biggest win is if we can slow progress down to such a degree that it can't come into force before the election.