DPMS .308 Recon VS Armalite AR10T
- Thread starter DAJA
- Start date
I've been biting my tongue to this point.
The differences between .223 and .308 should not be overlooked.
.308 burns almost twice as much powder, pushing bullets that are double and triple the weight.
Can one engineer in weight and dimensional savings into the AR-10 design for a less robust rifle? Obviously they can as the G2 offers that over their competition.
Will those design changes prove to be as hardy and reliable as those offered by the competition? Jury is out IMHO. I think there is a likelyhood that guys are going to start seeing parts wearing and breaking at a higher attrition rate as the round counts climb with the G2 over other offerings.
Perhaps the manufacturer is counting on lower round count uses or higher volume of parts sales?
All speculation on my end.
What is for certain, is that leaders in the development of .308 AR rifles like LMT and Knight's Armament (who has also benefited from collaborating with the design's inventor) have surely dissected and studied it. And yet, have stuck to a dimensionally more robust platform.
That alone gives me pause to think of the ramifications of DPMS's design mods.
Having said that, the more guys shooting the G2 means more beta testers!
The differences between .223 and .308 should not be overlooked.
.308 burns almost twice as much powder, pushing bullets that are double and triple the weight.
Can one engineer in weight and dimensional savings into the AR-10 design for a less robust rifle? Obviously they can as the G2 offers that over their competition.
Will those design changes prove to be as hardy and reliable as those offered by the competition? Jury is out IMHO. I think there is a likelyhood that guys are going to start seeing parts wearing and breaking at a higher attrition rate as the round counts climb with the G2 over other offerings.
Perhaps the manufacturer is counting on lower round count uses or higher volume of parts sales?
All speculation on my end.
What is for certain, is that leaders in the development of .308 AR rifles like LMT and Knight's Armament (who has also benefited from collaborating with the design's inventor) have surely dissected and studied it. And yet, have stuck to a dimensionally more robust platform.
That alone gives me pause to think of the ramifications of DPMS's design mods.
Having said that, the more guys shooting the G2 means more beta testers!
All good points Beltfed (only time and lots of G2 usage will tell if you're right), however with the difference in cost you could buy #3 G2's for the price of #1 KAC SR25.
Perhaps total ammo. spent is a plausible consideration, meaning since the .308 round is considerably more expensive the rounds spent versus a comparable .223 rifle would likely be significantly less; which may have been a consideration of the G2 designers. Although with the weights of the DPMS G2 and a KAC SR25 being very close did the G2 manufactures some how build in a similiar level of durability to a KAC in a more compact package?
Hard to believe for a third the price, but stranger things have happened...
Saying that the G2 handles better (more like a AR-15) if we are to take NTM at his word and I for one do. So again it must be said that if the G2 did come to failure after several thousands round spent versus a KAC holding up fine under the same use; a person could still buy two more G2's leaving many spare parts before passing the original cost of just one KAC and again the G2 still handles like a smaller rifle in comparison.
Finally for most of us $2,000+taxes is a much better buy in then $6,000+taxes and we aren't even counting extra's or optics...
So as long as the G2 lasts a ratio of #1 to #3 of rounds spent (meaning a KAC would need to last a minimum of #3 times longer with respect to rounds spent w/o failure) then the G2 should be the winner unless money spent or CQB (manoeuverability) shooting isn't to be a consideration.
The KAC does offer more features, but two important features of the G2 it can't match is compactness/ease of use and price, albeit most would agree the KAC to be capable of a longer more reliable life; yes possibly.
I know with my moderate income the G2 would be coming home to my safe based on the fact that I'm not able to justify/afford the cost difference between a G2 and a KAC in the first place.
Now back to the AR-10T comparison which is to say there isn't one since the AR-10T weighs well over a pound more with no significant gain in accuracy.
Okay it's late and I'm rambling, so that's all for me tonight folks.
Cheers D
That is most like just a "feel". The lower receiver of a 308 cannot be any smaller or bigger, even made by different manufacturers.
The reason is that they all use the standard AR15 fire control parts, pistol grip and the same magazine, therefore the distance between the magwell and the back of the pistol grip is pretty much fixed. There is no way to put more meat to make the thicker either, otherwise there will be shelves on the sides of the lower because the pistol grip is standard.
What can be different is the amount of material under the receiver extension thread. Some people pay attention to cut it the way to maintain the same height and angle ( in relationship to the pistol grip ) as an AR15, some don't put that into consideration( like Colt LE901) That is probably the reason you think the G2 feels more like an AR15, when you grab the rifle by the pistol grip and you don't feel any change in gripping position.
I agree to a point.
Certainly, time will tell.
The sr25 is a very refined version of the ar10, you can tell it's been shaped with hundreds of small changes to achieve the end product.
The g2 was a blank piece of paper that takes advantage of both lmt/kac's refinements and modern materials and engineering processes. They took a bold leap, and it seems to be working out so far. The elastomer extractor spring and one piece bolt carrier/gas key are things that are advancements on their own, but also allow other innovations to move forward. There are also the little things like the flared and beveled mag well...
If it had been released by Knights or lmt, people would be hailing it as the second coming of Christ, and paying triple the price...
Less meat on the gun isn't a bad thing necessarily, as long as the materials are up to the job.
The biggest things you note ergonomically is that there is less material ahead of the mag well, and from the magwell back, it is exactly ar15. No other 308 is like that. It shortens the overall rifle and balances better.
Also the lower and upper are slimmer than all other 308's. If you look at the pic I posted above and compare that to caramels older dpms, you can clearly see how much shorter the reciever/lower is. When you add in the slim upper as well, the results are, well, orgasmic !
Pick up your ar15 and pretend it's shooting 308. That is exactly what the g2 feels like.
NTM what all have you modified on your G2, I notice the barrel is black versus the factory silver/grey (what was done to accomplish this) and you've mentioned a trigger job and front hand guard is there anything else?
Curious to your G2's round count if you don't mind sharing.
This thread is stirring up an old craving for an AR-10 rifle that has been around for a long time, might just be time to step up from .223.
Cheers D
Curious to your G2's round count if you don't mind sharing.
This thread is stirring up an old craving for an AR-10 rifle that has been around for a long time, might just be time to step up from .223.
Cheers D
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Could you please clarify what quality issues have come up with the G2 rifles.
Cheers D
primer material flowing back into firing pin hole. causing some major issues
seems the newer ones have a smaller firing pin hole.
But how to make surere you are buying a "newer" one.
Im not sure the one selling you could trustfully tell you if it is a "newer" model
http ://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/652977_DPMS_Recon__308_OR_Ruger_SR_762_.html
http ://forum.snipershide.info/showthread.php?t=272794
http: //forum.308ar.com/topic/8457-dpms-g2/
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It's the factory stainless "satin" finish, it just goes black in certain light, as opposed to shining.
Running the geissele s3g, but honestly the factory trigger was excellent. One of the best factory ar triggers I've tried, certainly better than my lmt mws' was. It's a dual stage with a crisp break.
Midwest handguard.
Just over 2000 rounds now.
Mine was one of the originals with the larger firing pin hole. It makes a funky looking outy belly button on the primer, but does not effect function in any way. I've run a bunch of ladder loads through it, some very very hot, they show primers smashed completely flat on the edges, flowing ejector marks, and no problems with primer rupturing.
It's a non issue.
If you were chambered in 6.5 or .260, the story might be different.
My thoughts exactly...
Wow I'm surprised Caramel, not by your fine XM-10, but the fact it's the very first rifle of yours I've ever seen here on Gunnutz that isn't equipped with one of those sweet Schmidt & Bender Hi-power scopes you own.
Seriously now, it's not that I don't like AR-10's, but where's your KAC SR-15 in this little show? As I'd a thought it be pulling this sub-MOA deal off w/o breaking a sweat.
All joking aside, good luck with your Bushmaster at the range although I'm not so sure I want to see a Bushy doing what an Armalite couldn't...
Cheers D
Thank you for all the clarification/info. NTM, it's great to hear you've put more then a few rounds down the pipe of your G2 w/o a complaint.
The details for your opinion(s) are always appreciated as they allow a better understanding of the topic and shed light on the reasoning for your choice(s).
It's now becoming increasingly apparent just what a deal this DPMS G2 rifle is compared to other AR-10 type rifles.
Cheers D
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Wow I'm surprised Caramel, not by your fine XM-10, but the fact it's the very first rifle of yours I've ever seen here on Gunnutz that isn't equipped with one of those sweet Schmidt & Bender Hi-power scopes you own.
Seriously now, it's not that I don't like AR-10's, but where's your KAC SR-15 in this little show? As I'd a thought it be pulling this sub-MOA deal off w/o breaking a sweat.
All joking aside, good luck with your Bushmaster at the range although I'm not so sure I want to see a Bushy doing what an Armalite couldn't...
Cheers D
KAC SR 15 results of challenge going up now, check on Trinimon challenge eventually will be topped wit a S&B if i need to... JP.
KAC SR 15 results of challenge going up now, check on Trinimon challenge eventually will be topped wit a S&B if i need to... JP.
Yes I see that now my prediction came true, that SR-15 of yours had no problems on the MOA challenge with you behind it of course. Well done Caramel.
Cheers D
You might want to check one of those G2 rifles out. I wish LMT/KAC would make an AR308 based on the GII design. That kind of quality with this design would be phenomenal.
The Recon at 8.5 pounds. It has a medium heavy barrel on it in SS as well as a crappy 1.05 pound quad rail on the front that is 9" in length. Replace that rail with a 12" MI one and you just lost half a pound bringing your Recon at just slightly over 8 lbs. The GII AP4 (Pretty much a base M4 only in 308) is 7.25 pounds.
The GII also has an enhanced BCG with dual ejectors and a new elastomer extractor spring that I read was tested to 30,000 rounds as well as solvents etc. Plus the gas key is monolithic as per recommendations with the M4 replacement competition. It includes a decent two stage trigger that I have felt no need to replace. Keep in mind I'm comparing this to the one in my LMT MWS.
There is no improved charging handle for the GII as it's an inbetween length for the AR15 and AR10. That being said the Badger tactical charging latch I have on order will replace the stock on which should take care of that problem.
If LMT/KAC made an AR308 off this platform it would likely be the perfect semi auto 308. Freedom group should have marketed it under Remington. Also while the heart and soul of this AR308 is serious hardware, DPMS still managed to DPMS it with mediocre furniture and a few QC issues. Fortunately all the stuff DPMS doesn't do right is AR15 compatible or there is an aftermarket replacement for it.
