Drill + tap failure. Backwoods Outdoors Corbeil Ontario.

Jimbobob08 said:


























Back from archery. Took a few more pics. The rail “clicks” into place and requires a hard pull to “snap” it out. No bonding agent or loctite has been cleaned off and the fitment appears to be pretty tight, with a slight pressure and the gap between rail and barrel closes. I would guess the rail to be correct. You can also see bonding agent used at the front, not just rear. It’s overhanging the dovetail and I was able to lift it with a fingernail. I have not touched any of the bolts or tried to thread any in to the minimal threads that are there. Don’t have anything here to measure holes, caliber died and hasn’t been replaced.

Old fella is off today. I’m going to call tomorrow. Hope for more than a “just drop it off”.
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Looking at the photos with the base in place, it appears that the top of the base slopes downhill - higher at the breech end than at the muzzle end. Strikes me that the top of the base should be essentially parallel to the axis of the bore.

You really need to get the thing to a competent smith, at least to analyze the situation, perhaps prescribe a solution, maybe fix it. Personally, the person who did the job initially is not someone I'd want trying to "fix" things.
You give your location as NE ON. Would it be reasonable for you to get it to Jason at Gunco in Nepean?
 
It appears the base was mounted more rearward than the reference image on skinner's website, which may cause the base profile mismatch. Can you place a straight edge along the edge of the holes and see if they are aligned and straight to the bore axis? It is hard to tell from the pictures with all the thread locker used as adhesive what is really going on.

it should look like this when installed:
https://imgur.com/a/LNdnEUG

Those holes should have been finished to depth with an end mill, flat bottomed drill or single flute d-bit and tapped with a full set of taper, plug and bottoming taps. It does look like a pilot and second drilling operation of some kind was preformed.
If you stick a toothpick in the holes and use your fingernail as a marker are the holes all the same depth?

I would be hesitant about welding as there will always be a minor variations in the steel and filler and the resulting hardnesses, the resulting repair would require the use of an end mill to ensure the dimensional integrity of the hole.
LNdnEUG
 
I sent another email to express my concerns again, just to have it in writing. Clearly stated “I will not just drop off the rifle”. Sent some of the new pics. Suggested he log in here. May give him a wake up call? I will still call tomorrow.

I do know some police officers and paralegals, hope it doesn’t get to that point.

Between Sudbury and North Bay Ontario. Could get rifle to Ottawa/Elwood Epps likely at some point. Canada post is another option.

Going to reach out to some of the licensed machinists I know. Probably know 2 dozen well enough to inspect and write a report on rifle drill + tap job for a handshake. Unfortunately most companies won’t allow firearms on site, they’re very competent.

About to take the kids out. Happy Halloween everyone and thanks for your input and suggestions to date. I’ll continue to keep y’a updated.
 
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Jimbob, from your last post I have come to the conclusion that your worst enemy in this fiasco is your own inexperience. That rail just cannot be mounteed downhill as your photo shows you want...the top flat of the rail must be parallel with the bore centerline, not the slope of the barrel contour. If you mount it solid as you hold it in the photo you will have a distorted view thru your sighting devise...you eyeball must be looking straight through the scope. To achieve a straight thru look the way you have that rail pinched on your cheek weld would have to be 8 inches above the stock
What you want to achieve with the parts you have will take somebody with a little ingenuity and you have 11 pages here of good advise....take it to someone who can do the job!!!
 
fingers284 said:
Jimbob, from your last post I have come to the conclusion that your worst enemy in this fiasco is your own inexperience. That rail just cannot be mounteed downhill as your photo shows you want...the top flat of the rail must be parallel with the bore centerline, not the slope of the barrel contour. If you mount it solid as you hold it in the photo you will have a distorted view thru your sighting devise...you eyeball must be looking straight through the scope. To achieve a straight thru look the way you have that rail pinched on your cheek weld would have to be 8 inches above the stock
What you want to achieve with the parts you have will take somebody with a little ingenuity and you have 11 pages here of good advise....take it to someone who can do the job!!!
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I don’t care how it’s mounted. I simply held it the way he had mounted it to see.

I am looking at alternative smiths. I think the original shop should be held accountable, hopefully the least painful way possible but it’s hard to move forward in such a way with such little communication. 5 unanswered phone calls today. I haven’t set a timeline yet, but eventually it’ll have to be escalated to a police, paralegal, or small claims issue.

I checked the hole depth and all 4 are different. The two rear holes while close in depth to each other are much deeper than the front two. Once I locate a smith the first question will be “is this even safe to shoot”, I won’t be going the welding route. If it’s drilled too deep a replacement will be required.

Again, thanks to all those that have taken the time.
 
Ex3dy said:
It appears the base was mounted more rearward than the reference image on skinner's website, which may cause the base profile mismatch. Can you place a straight edge along the edge of the holes and see if they are aligned and straight to the bore axis?
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They are not.
 
Jimbobob08 said:
I don’t care how it’s mounted. I simply held it the way he had mounted it to see.

I am looking at alternative smiths. I think the original shop should be held accountable, hopefully the least painful way possible but it’s hard to move forward in such a way with such little communication. 5 unanswered phone calls today. I haven’t set a timeline yet, but eventually it’ll have to be escalated to a police, paralegal, or small claims issue.

I checked the hole depth and all 4 are different. The two rear holes while close in depth to each other are much deeper than the front two. Once I locate a smith the first question will be “is this even safe to shoot”, I won’t be going the welding route. If it’s drilled too deep a replacement will be required.

Again, thanks to all those that have taken the time.
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Police won't do anything. Not their place. Small claims will be the answer if they refuse to refund you, but at that point is it even worth it? I looked into small claims court over a tenant that didn't pay rent, had a "judgement" from the BC Tenancy Branch saying she owed me $1000, but the Tenancy branch has no enforcement arm so I would have had to go through the courts to actually collect, and it simply wasn't worth the hassle.
 
Suther said:
Police won't do anything. Not their place. Small claims will be the answer if they refuse to refund you, but at that point is it even worth it? I looked into small claims court over a tenant that didn't pay rent, had a "judgement" from the BC Tenancy Branch saying she owed me $1000, but the Tenancy branch has no enforcement arm so I would have had to go through the courts to actually collect, and it simply wasn't worth the hassle.
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I’ve had police get involved for tenancy issues. Often these scammers are actually intelligent and they’ll often come to some sort of mutual conclusion after police involvement.

I’ve also done small claims for bad tenants. In Ontario you can sit on a judgement for years and nail their ass to the wall when they least expect it. Do you recover the full amount? No, but generally it’s not about the money at that point. I try to be a fair and understanding person. If it gets to that point it’s not because I was the unreasonable one.

Edit to add, business owners are generally the ones with something to loose too. Not low life professional tenants.
 
Jimbobob08 said:
They are not.
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If you flip the rail 180 degrees do the holes still align and allow the rail to sit flush with the barrel profile? The -80 MOA cant initially escaped me with the horror of the red goop everywhere. Do you still have the factory sight that was in the dovetail?
 
Ex3dy said:
If you flip the rail 180 degrees do the holes still align and allow the rail to sit flush with the barrel profile? The -80 MOA cant initially escaped me with the horror of the red goop everywhere. Do you still have the factory sight that was in the dovetail?
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They almost align. If the holes were drilled correctly I’d say yes it would line up. If the rail were moved forward it would match barrel profile.
 
Jimbobob08 said:
I don’t care how it’s mounted. I simply held it the way he had mounted it to see.

Again, thanks to all those that have taken the time.
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You should care, they put it on backwards if that’s the way you received it. Explains all of the locktite and I’m surprised you could sight it in. No way would I be letting them touch this or any other firearm after that hack job. I’d be asking for a full refund.
 
Maybe the ''smith'' didn't do the job and relied on his son to do the work.

Mistakes are made by everyone. OP, make sure that smith is willing to ''fix" this acceptably or make it all good financially.

Hopefully you don't have to eat this very poor job.

If he doesn't do this in an acceptable manner, in a timely manner, time to out him.
 
Jimbobob08 said:
I don’t care how it’s mounted. I simply held it the way he had mounted it to see.

I am looking at alternative smiths. I think the original shop should be held accountable, hopefully the least painful way possible but it’s hard to move forward in such a way with such little communication. 5 unanswered phone calls today. I haven’t set a timeline yet, but eventually it’ll have to be escalated to a police, paralegal, or small claims issue.

I checked the hole depth and all 4 are different. The two rear holes while close in depth to each other are much deeper than the front two. Once I locate a smith the first question will be “is this even safe to shoot”, I won’t be going the welding route. If it’s drilled too deep a replacement will be required.

Again, thanks to all those that have taken the time.
Click to expand...

Totally "freaks me out" to attempt blind tapped holes into a barrel - so trying to learn "what not to do" from your thread. I suspect your barrel is tapered - fatter at rear holes than front holes - most charts / references that I looked at are concerned about what diameter is hole, which determines how close to the bore /grooves within that barrel to go - so thicker part of barrel, I think, could have deeper holes, if all holes stop same distance from bore - yet you say front two are not the same - more than difference in outside diameter? Or just drilled haphazardly with no rhyme nor reason?
 
I always liked to leave a minimum of 100 thou to the bore... had a dial indicator mounted on my drill press... touch the drill to the barrel surface (held securely in the vise), set the dial to zero, drill to depth. Then use the flat bottoming drill carefully. Then tap that hole using the drill chuck to hold the tap in line with the hole... then a flat finishing tap held the same way. Short holes wouldn't even start with a long tapered tap, start using a plug tap...
 
Potashminer said:
Totally "freaks me out" to attempt blind tapped holes into a barrel - so trying to learn "what not to do" from your thread. I suspect your barrel is tapered - fatter at rear holes than front holes - most charts / references that I looked at are concerned about what diameter is hole, which determines how close to the bore /grooves within that barrel to go - so thicker part of barrel, I think, could have deeper holes, if all holes stop same distance from bore - yet you say front two are not the same - more than difference in outside diameter? Or just drilled haphazardly with no rhyme nor reason?
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I make up a sleeve for my drill bits when doing the job.

I also use a dial gauge on my milling machine spindle just for ease of mind.

When I start the hole, I always start with a ''center drill'' which has the perfect depth, then finish the holes, with a drill of the right diameter and a mill bit ground for the job, then special ground starter tap and finish with a tap ground to cut full depth threads all the way to the bottom of the hole

I know it's a pain and slow but I do the complete job on each hole before moving onto the next hole. That way I don't have to change anything on the set up, except to move the table under the bit for the next hole.

Yes, fiddly but it works for me.
 
I set my number to private and finally got the guy on the phone. After the usual just drop it off and I’ll redo it attempt, I told him that wasn’t happening and I have reached out to another smith but haven’t heard back yet. I explained all my concerns, he claims the epoxy is normal to hold the rail in place for drilling and denies not fully threading the holes. At the end he finally seemed to accept that he wasn’t seeing this rifle again and said to call him back after I speak to another smith and find out what the situation is.
 
If the screw holes aren't drilled deeper than the dovetail is then I would feel safe. a simple measurement & math computation will tell you how much metal is left from base of dovetail to grooves
 
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