Elegant advice from a store owner /sarcasm

[Harrier .45]

Wrong.

First rule is to treat customers in a way that ensures they happily come back.

Second, the customer is always right.

Wrong!!!

The First Rule is correct, but the Second Rule is most definitely WRONG.

Customers are not ALWAYS RIGHT, and this is an issue that needs to be beaten and flogged to death, then thrown out with the wash water. The very best advice any retailer can give any potential customer, even before they set foot through the front doors of any store, is Research, Research, Research. There are simply too many products available from too many manufacturers for any one person to know absolutely EVERYTHING about each and every individual model. If the customer can build a foundation of their own knowledge upon which further discussion can be built, that is the first step.

In this case, the OP had done exactly that (kudos for him!!!), which should have made his shopping effort that much easier. Unfortunately, this does not appear to have been the case.

Too often, however, we in the retail world see customers enter our stores with absolutely no idea about what it is they actually want/need/desire, and expect the sales person with whom they are dealing to wave some sort of magic wand and Presto-Chango, the absolutely perfect product that will suit every single need that individual is ever likely to encounter will suddenly appear before them.

Other times, customers come before us with what they profess to be the perfect solution to a problem, only to discover that their "solution" can actually be more of an error in judgement or knowledge or recommendation.

Sales persons are not perfect either, nor is it our job to be so. Our job is to offer advice, either through knowledge or experience, that will help a customer to make an informed and educated decision that will best benefit their need/use/requirement. Do we make mistakes? Most definitely, as do customers. The ALWAYS RIGHT idea needs to be put to rest once and for all. Retail sales is a learning experience for EVERYONE involved. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to step back and take another look at what they actually expect out of a retail setting.

To the OP:

The ISSC pistols are NOT small-framed guns meant for women, contrary to what the original retailer might have claimed. These guns are built to mimic the Glock-family of pistols in size, weight, and basic operating features, with the exception of an exposed hammer and a slide-mounted safety device. Unfortunately, the original batches of ISSC Mark 22 pistols suffered badly from the same issue that arose with the SIG Mosquito pistols, in that the ISSC models were extremely picky about which types of ammunition they would feed, fire and extract/eject with repeated reliability. Parts breakages were not uncommon with those first batches of guns when they reached North American consumer shelves about 2-3 years ago.

Current-production ISSC pistols seem to have ironed out most of the parts breakage problems, but ammunition reliability and feeding issues do still crop up from time to time. While this issue seems to plague a large number of new-production .22-calibre handguns, better-built designs such as the S&W M&P.22, the GSG/Chiappa/American Classic/SIG Sauer 1911 pistols in .22 LR, and the ever-present Browning Buck Marks and Ruger Mark II/III/22-45 models seem to have overcome this issue for the most part.

The ISSC pistols sell well for customers who already have or are looking to purchase a centerfire Glock pistol in any calibre, but do not want to spend nearly the cost of second gun on the Advantage Arms conversion kits for .22 LR available for the Gen 3 and Gen 4 guns. Again, having been built to near-Glock configurations, the ISSC Mark 22 is a decent entry-level pistol for this purpose, but the M&P.22 is a better and more reliable choice.

The problem with the M&P.22 pistols at the moment is the complete and total unavailabilty of spare magazines from S&W, as well as from any vendors or distributors. While Ellwood Epps does have these magazines on back order, it has been nearly 6 months since we saw any decent quantities of these magazines reach our shelves, with no ETA in sight as of this date.

If you have any further questions about the ISSC Mark 22, the S&W M&P.22, or any other firearms, please feel free to contact our store by telephone or by E-mail, at your convenience. Any one of our staff members will be more than happy to assist you.

We might not always be RIGHT, but we do try to be HELPFUL.

Good luck with your purchase!

 

[Harrier .45]

Epps is usually packed with people... Hard to actually get someoneto help you. But more important, they are not willing to deal because they just take on way too much inventory. But you do find a steal on their site from time to time. Over all is a hit or miss depending on how busy it is and if the person helping you is in a good mood.

On the contrary, we are willing to deal as we are able. Unfortunately, we are not always able to "deal" to the level some customers expect.

An example: Today I received an E-mail request from a customer offering $1,250.00 on a shotgun that is listed at $1,900.00. Naturally we had to turn down that offer, but I did counter with an offer of $1,800.00, a saving of $100.00 off the listed price, which we felt to be more than reasonable in this particular situation.

You will also find that we can be somewhat accommodating with our prices where we are able, and where we are not we do often extend little "extras", such as a box of ammunition thrown in for free, a gun sock, perhaps, or some other small accessories that might help close the deal. While this sort of deal cannot be extended to every sale, we do strive to offer the best deal that we are able, where we are able to do so.

Remember, it never hurts to ask for a discount or a deal, but be reasonable when doing so. We run a business here, not a charity. Like every one of you, we, too, are gun owners and gun buyers, so we know what it's like to pay for a product. Every single one of our staff members likes to keep a few dollars in their own pockets whenever we make purchases of our own, just like you.

As for employee moods when you visit the store, the next time you visit Epps, take a moment to look around. Listen to the conversations going on around you. Hear what customers are saying, or asking, or demanding. Listen to the responses being given back by the employees. By the end of a long day, even the most composed individual might have reached the end of their patience level with a constant barrage being fired over the counter. It's quite possible the person you are dealing with might need to take a second of their own to regroup and compose themselves before moving on to the next customer.

Are we perfect? Never! But we do try to be as good as we are able. Sometimes that is enough, and sometimes it isn't. For the most part, though, the majority of our customers seem to think we're headed down the right path.

 

[thenewbieglockguy]

Thanks for responding. I never said Epps is a charity. I'm not asking for 50% discounts when I go up there. I'm just expecting some level of a discount whether it be $50 off or a box of ammo or two.

There are some great staff up there like Dan. Always friendly and patient with the customers. And I understand that sometimes people need a break. I'm human too.

I have a question for you:

There were three HK45's listed on your website at $1,090. Then, you got in a whole shipment of them and they all went back up to full price. Why weren't the three kept at the same sale price?

 

[FALover]

I beleive the OP should do what is right for him and if that means walking then that is what he should do.

Now about going to Epps, I am not sure that is going to be a better deal. With all the posts on this forum about bad service from there, you just may be going from the frying pan to the fire.

Graydog

I have dealt with Epps and always get treated fair. They are a very busy shop and when waiting in the gun room the phone rings non-stop. The questions are answered politely but at times you can hear them get frustrated as they try to answer people who really need to know what they are looking for. The op has a valid point. When I worked with customers I always remembered the saying " you may not remembered what they said but you always remember how they made you feel". Unless I knew a customer well, I never joked or otherwise strayed from the business at hand. The question could have been answered with a simple " I prefer the larger frame for my hands", "they are both fine firearms, what feels good to you" or a simple " I have not fired the (enter gun here) so I can't give you a honest comparison". As it stands a sale was lost, bad feelings were generated and what could/should have been the beginning of further sales was lost. This is what successful retailers strive to avoid.

 

[Jim Guns]

from what I understand, the store owner is just plain ###ist, in a redneck'y sense of the term, ie. small caliber are for small handed girls only.

You may have understood wrong. He basically said since the guy has big hands, why doesn't he buy the bigger gun. It's like me saying to a wrestler, hey you're a big guy, why don't you get that F150 instead of that prius.

I don't know how that is ###ist. My wife has smaller hands then me, she would, and does go for guns with smaller grips that fit her.

Is this what we have become. Crying political incorrectness and inequality at everything, wow..

 

[st1264]

If the OP was so insulted by that, he wouldn't like my friends, coworkers or anyone in the Off Topics. However, that's definitely his option to walk out and go elsewhere.

A 'redneck-ish' ###ist comment in a gun store - I'm not surprised or insulted by them, this is a male dominated sport. It really sounded like a joke and knocking the pistol, while telling him to get the larger pistol for his large hands. Personally I wouldn't have said that, but sounds like the guy was trying to make a joke.

I work in the service industry and you should hear what some of the customers say...

 

[Buck Futter]

Wrong!!!

The First Rule is correct, but the Second Rule is most definitely WRONG.

Customers are not ALWAYS RIGHT, and this is an issue that needs to be beaten and flogged to death, then thrown out with the wash water. The very best advice any retailer can give any potential customer, even before they set foot through the front doors of any store, is Research, Research, Research. There are simply too many products available from too many manufacturers for any one person to know absolutely EVERYTHING about each and every individual model. If the customer can build a foundation of their own knowledge upon which further discussion can be built, that is the first step.

In this case, the OP had done exactly that (kudos for him!!!), which should have made his shopping effort that much easier. Unfortunately, this does not appear to have been the case.

Too often, however, we in the retail world see customers enter our stores with absolutely no idea about what it is they actually want/need/desire, and expect the sales person with whom they are dealing to wave some sort of magic wand and Presto-Chango, the absolutely perfect product that will suit every single need that individual is ever likely to encounter will suddenly appear before them.

Other times, customers come before us with what they profess to be the perfect solution to a problem, only to discover that their "solution" can actually be more of an error in judgement or knowledge or recommendation.

Sales persons are not perfect either, nor is it our job to be so. Our job is to offer advice, either through knowledge or experience, that will help a customer to make an informed and educated decision that will best benefit their need/use/requirement. Do we make mistakes? Most definitely, as do customers. The ALWAYS RIGHT idea needs to be put to rest once and for all. Retail sales is a learning experience for EVERYONE involved. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to step back and take another look at what they actually expect out of a retail setting.

To the OP:

The ISSC pistols are NOT small-framed guns meant for women, contrary to what the original retailer might have claimed. These guns are built to mimic the Glock-family of pistols in size, weight, and basic operating features, with the exception of an exposed hammer and a slide-mounted safety device. Unfortunately, the original batches of ISSC Mark 22 pistols suffered badly from the same issue that arose with the SIG Mosquito pistols, in that the ISSC models were extremely picky about which types of ammunition they would feed, fire and extract/eject with repeated reliability. Parts breakages were not uncommon with those first batches of guns when they reached North American consumer shelves about 2-3 years ago.

Current-production ISSC pistols seem to have ironed out most of the parts breakage problems, but ammunition reliability and feeding issues do still crop up from time to time. While this issue seems to plague a large number of new-production .22-calibre handguns, better-built designs such as the S&W M&P.22, the GSG/Chiappa/American Classic/SIG Sauer 1911 pistols in .22 LR, and the ever-present Browning Buck Marks and Ruger Mark II/III/22-45 models seem to have overcome this issue for the most part.

The ISSC pistols sell well for customers who already have or are looking to purchase a centerfire Glock pistol in any calibre, but do not want to spend nearly the cost of second gun on the Advantage Arms conversion kits for .22 LR available for the Gen 3 and Gen 4 guns. Again, having been built to near-Glock configurations, the ISSC Mark 22 is a decent entry-level pistol for this purpose, but the M&P.22 is a better and more reliable choice.

The problem with the M&P.22 pistols at the moment is the complete and total unavailabilty of spare magazines from S&W, as well as from any vendors or distributors. While Ellwood Epps does have these magazines on back order, it has been nearly 6 months since we saw any decent quantities of these magazines reach our shelves, with no ETA in sight as of this date.

If you have any further questions about the ISSC Mark 22, the S&W M&P.22, or any other firearms, please feel free to contact our store by telephone or by E-mail, at your convenience. Any one of our staff members will be more than happy to assist you.

We might not always be RIGHT, but we do try to be HELPFUL.

Good luck with your purchase!

Hear Hear!!

Excellent response to the most tired and mythical cliches in business.

RULE #1) Treat customers the way THEY deserve to be treated. Just because you yourself am comfortable with a laid back, horsing around, dare I say "politcally incorrect" atmosphere, NEVER ASSUME the customer you are dealing with will be as well. I always let my customer dictate the tone. If he or she wants to be funny, I can be funny. If they are purely professional, so am I.

RULE #2) You are to provide information and recommendations (which may be of a personal preference) and let the customer make the decision that is RIGHT for them.

Unless the OP came in and acted all laid back and was telling the sales clerk about his wife, the sales clerk did NOT earn enough rapport with the OP to go with anything other than being 100% professional. Whether the OP is being overly sensitive is NOT the issue here. The retailer did NOT get the business and that is where the sales clerk FAILED!

 

[luke s]

Dumb for the employee to say that, but the m&p is likely the better gun, did you try to hold the sig classic or gsg1911?

 

[snooze98k]

This was the store owner an his wife, and if the owner doesn't know his own goods... well ill buy from a canadian tire then. I've been there a few times before and bought few things due to a lack of service that can leave me standing at the gun desk while he chats on the phone about his plans for the night.
Being thin skinned is far from the truth. I treated his comment with the same level of respect. "Cya"
If your going to buy a new truck and the sales person says you'd be a pansy for not buying the Denali, he would be absolutly right... Guess you better man up and buy the denali.

 

[Hoplite Tactical Supplies]

OP, was it the store owner/manager or an employee?

If it were our store and an employee were to act like this I'd want to know. If it wasn't the owner/manager then even if you're purchasing elsewhere tell them why. It's one thing to joke around with your buddy across the counter, and another with a total stranger.

*Edit* Beat to the post by one minute , now I know that it was the owner.

 

[nowarningshot]

Man was asking for simple advice, got treated rudely and took his money elsewhere. Comes on here and is treated just as rudely, or simply trolled.

The only issue i have with the OP is he did not name the shop, so that i can then avoid it as well.

 

[dracbec]

I have been in the same store its owned and operated by a man and his wife, I too have been treated the same.

 

[NerfHerder]

The owner didn't offer any kind of technical advice.... which is unfortunate but not overly surprising.

What I don't understand is why some seem to want to assume he was being a ###ist redneck. (maybe he was, who knows)

If two choices are of the same calibre and are of similar price and quality, then why not base it on feel and the size of the potential owner's hand?
Maybe I'm over-simplifying.

 

[EdGCNM]

A rude response from the store owner, yes. Taking your business elsewhere is perfectly correct.

My guess is that the store owner interpreted the OP's question "my first question was if he had personally had heard of any issues with the ISSC brand?" as asking him if he was trying to sell inferior quality merchandise. If you think about it, it is kind of inferring that.

(And while the customer is definitely not always right, the golden rule of retail is to never tell the customer that they are wrong. It's a fine but important distinction.)

 

[Harrier .45]

Thanks for responding. I never said Epps is a charity. I'm not asking for 50% discounts when I go up there. I'm just expecting some level of a discount whether it be $50 off or a box of ammo or two.

There are some great staff up there like Dan. Always friendly and patient with the customers. And I understand that sometimes people need a break. I'm human too.

I have a question for you:

There were three HK45's listed on your website at $1,090. Then, you got in a whole shipment of them and they all went back up to full price. Why weren't the three kept at the same sale price?

For the same reason that you pay full price for gasoline that is already in the tank at your local fuel station. When distributors raise prices on their goods -- be they firearms, ammunition, scopes, etc -- that price increased is effective on ALL models, not just the ones that enter inventory after the increase is put in place. This issue was discussed in another forum posting a few weeks back.

Our store, and many others, work on a licensed agreement with the majority of distributors which requires that we sell certain product lines at the MAP price -- that is Minimum Advertised Price. This MAP pricing level is set by the distributor, and must be adhered to for all items under that agreement at all times. When our H&K distributor raises prices on their products, those increases affect ALL products in stock, regardless of how long they have been there.

Our new Ruger GP.100s are pushing $850.00. Only weeks ago they were closer to the $675.00 mark. Every GP.100 we have in stock has increased to meet the new minimum pricing, as has every Glock pistol, every CZ pistol, every Smith & Wesson firearm, every round of Remington or Winchester or Federal or Nosler ammunition, etc.

As I have said in the past, we do not like price increases any more than our customers, for a variety of reasons:

First, it creates just this sort of upset with our customers, something we do work very hard to avoid.

Second, we, too, have to buy ammunition, scopes, rings, bases, and yes, firearms, ourselves, and we, too, have to pay those increased prices.

Just like the coming rise in your electricity bills, it's never a welcome sight to see a higher dollar value on any product, but unless we all want to eat and cook in the dark, we pay the price that Hydro sets. Likewise, if we want to shoot our guns, we pay the price set by the manufacturers and distributors.

As for your statement: "I'm just expecting some level of discount whether it be $50 off or a box of ammo or two", forgive me for being ignorant of your motives here, but why would you EXPECT a discount? Do you EXPECT a discount when you shop for groceries? Do you EXPECT the grocery store to throw in a free grapefruit or two with every purchase you make from their counters? Do you EXPECT a discount when you purchase gasoline for your car? Do you EXPECT a discount when you buy your clothing? Say, a free pair of shoes, or maybe a belt, or a sun hat? Of course not. And why would you? But why, then, would you EXPECT a discount when you purchase any item from a gun shop?

Our prices are clearly marked on our website, or readily provided to you by phone, by E-mail, or in person when you visit our store. Without trying to sound condescending or insulting at all, this is the nature of shopping. If you do not like the price you see on our website, or is given to you by any other means, you are always free to continue shopping elsewhere to determine if another retailer is offering that same item at a better price (read: discount). Now do not take that to mean "We don't want your business", or "If you don't like it, too bad!" (I can see that coming back in the not too distant future!) But remember this: While we do try to keep our prices as low as we can, we are not always perfect. Thus, we do have a policy to match competitor prices. But there are a few conditions. Give our store a call and ask one of our staff members to explain this policy, if you are interested. I think you'll find that we do all that we can to make certain that the price we are offering is the best deal available.

 

[Harrier .45]

I have dealt with Epps and always get treated fair. They are a very busy shop and when waiting in the gun room the phone rings non-stop. The questions are answered politely but at times you can hear them get frustrated as they try to answer people who really need to know what they are looking for. The op has a valid point. When I worked with customers I always remembered the saying " you may not remembered what they said but you always remember how they made you feel". Unless I knew a customer well, I never joked or otherwise strayed from the business at hand. The question could have been answered with a simple " I prefer the larger frame for my hands", "they are both fine firearms, what feels good to you" or a simple " I have not fired the (enter gun here) so I can't give you a honest comparison". As it stands a sale was lost, bad feelings were generated and what could/should have been the beginning of further sales was lost. This is what successful retailers strive to avoid.

Perfectly said, and far more eloquently (and succinctly!) than my own response!

 

[thenewbieglockguy]

For the same reason that you pay full price for gasoline that is already in the tank at your local fuel station. When distributors raise prices on their goods -- be they firearms, ammunition, scopes, etc -- that price increased is effective on ALL models, not just the ones that enter inventory after the increase is put in place. This issue was discussed in another forum posting a few weeks back.

Our store, and many others, work on a licensed agreement with the majority of distributors which requires that we sell certain product lines at the MAP price -- that is Minimum Advertised Price. This MAP pricing level is set by the distributor, and must be adhered to for all items under that agreement at all times. When our H&K distributor raises prices on their products, those increases affect ALL products in stock, regardless of how long they have been there.

Our new Ruger GP.100s are pushing $850.00. Only weeks ago they were closer to the $675.00 mark. Every GP.100 we have in stock has increased to meet the new minimum pricing, as has every Glock pistol, every CZ pistol, every Smith & Wesson firearm, every round of Remington or Winchester or Federal or Nosler ammunition, etc.

As I have said in the past, we do not like price increases any more than our customers, for a variety of reasons:

First, it creates just this sort of upset with our customers, something we do work very hard to avoid.

Second, we, too, have to buy ammunition, scopes, rings, bases, and yes, firearms, ourselves, and we, too, have to pay those increased prices.

Just like the coming rise in your electricity bills, it's never a welcome sight to see a higher dollar value on any product, but unless we all want to eat and cook in the dark, we pay the price that Hydro sets. Likewise, if we want to shoot our guns, we pay the price set by the manufacturers and distributors.

As for your statement: "I'm just expecting some level of discount whether it be $50 off or a box of ammo or two", why would you EXPECT a discount? Do you EXPECT a discount when you shop for groceries? Do you EXPECT the grocery store to throw in a free grapefruit or two with every purchase you make from their counters? Do you EXPECT a discount when you purchase gasoline for your car? Do you EXPECT a discount when you buy your clothing, say a free pair of shoes? Maybe a belt, or a sun hat?

Our prices are clearly marked on our website, or readily provided to you by phone, by E-mail, or in person when you visit our store. Without trying to sound condescending or insulting here, this is the nature of shopping. If you do not like the price you see on our website, or is given to you by any other means, you are always free to continue shopping elsewhere to determine if another retailer is offering that same item at a better price (read: discount). Now do not take that to mean "We don't want your business", or "If you don't like it, too bad!" (I can see that coming back in the not too distant future!) But remember this: While we do try to keep our prices as low as we can, we are not always perfect. Thus, we do have a policy to match competitor prices. But there are a few conditions. Give our store a call and ask one of our staff members to explain this policy, if you are interested. I think you'll find that we do all that we can to make certain that the price we are offering is the best deal available.

No, I don't 'expect' a discount buying products like these:

"Do you EXPECT a discount when you shop for groceries? Do you EXPECT the grocery store to throw in a free grapefruit or two with every purchase you make from their counters? Do you EXPECT a discount when you purchase gasoline for your car? Do you EXPECT a discount when you buy your clothing, say a free pair of shoes? Maybe a belt, or a sun hat?"

I DO expect a discount of some sort when I am purchasing $1,000 - $1,500 firearms. This hobby by no means is cheap but as a nice gesture, the stores I go to are willing to deal and come to a compromise. I have never been to a store thats not willing to take $25 off or give a box of ammo on a firearm, include Epps.

However, I think your taking my messages the wrong way. I enjoy shopping at Epps when going to Orillia. Its a great atmosphere and staff like Dan make the experience even more enjoyable. And I will continue to shop at Epps.

 

[misanthropist]

The owner didn't offer any kind of technical advice.... which is unfortunate but not overly surprising.

In my opinion, that is both fortunate and surprising.

Most gun store clerks (owners included) have been spouting off technical info every time I've seen them, most of it totally wrong.

 

[Showcase]

No, I don't 'expect' a discount buying products like these:

"Do you EXPECT a discount when you shop for groceries? Do you EXPECT the grocery store to throw in a free grapefruit or two with every purchase you make from their counters? Do you EXPECT a discount when you purchase gasoline for your car? Do you EXPECT a discount when you buy your clothing, say a free pair of shoes? Maybe a belt, or a sun hat?"

I DO expect a discount of some sort when I am purchasing $1,000 - $1,500 firearms. This hobby by no means is cheap but as a nice gesture, the stores I go to are willing to deal and come to a compromise. I have never been to a store thats not willing to take $25 off or give a box of ammo on a firearm, include Epps.

However, I think your taking my messages the wrong way. I enjoy shopping at Epps when going to Orillia. Its a great atmosphere and staff like Dan make the experience even more enjoyable. And I will continue to shop at Epps.

Why do you feel so entitled? When you spend 1000-1500 on a gun it's because you appreciate the gun and or the quality. Nothing says you should get any more, or any less in return. What makes your situation so special?

 

[TOKNE]

Well i hope that gun store worker learned his lesson.... Wait, no he didn't because instead of letting him know he was out of line, u cowardly cry about it on a forum and complain! You should have told him that you were offended and you're taking your business elsewhere because he was unprofessional.