Elimination Format F Class

[Maple57]

I happened upon this video from Erik Cortina and found the format to be quite intriguing.

It's fired with a pair of shooters, so they are not simply chasing the spotter.

They shoot side by side and the looser drops out. The winner goes on to the next stage.

It overcomes a range of fairness problems in traditional F Class where a guy can win out of stage luck and position luck.

The wind happens to go nuts just as your stage starts and that relay will score lower than the prior relay.

This side by side format takes that lucky relay factor out of play, and it also pairs top guys with top guys toward the end and that is the most fun way to shoot.

I have even seen where match organizers put the national team on the wind protected side of the range and foreigners are getting full wind and turbulence.

One guy was paired with a severely handicapped shooter for most of the weekend. Bad luck or planned, it was not fair to him.

I don't agree with many of Cortina's ideas, but he hit a home run getting involved with this format.

I'd like to see this adopted here in Canada.

 

[marshman]

Yes, totally agree. Looks like a great format

 

[donp]

I'm game....

 

[maynard]

It would be a first and only match for someone traveling a great distance to be eliminated after the first match because they didn't win their paring. For some reason some F Class shooters think that it is only fair if everyone in shooting at the same time relay.
Of course I come from the TR side of shooting so here are some of my thoughts.
If you look back at results from Grand Agg from say Bisley or the DCRA you will see a trend. A lot of the same names in the top 50 year after year. Take a look at the Queen's Final in the UK and again lots of the same names year after year. The Queen's starts off with all competitors shooting Queen's I, 2 sighters and 7 for score at 300, 500,and 600 yards. From there the top 300 scores shoot Queen's Stage II a day or so later, 2ighters and 10 for score at 300,500 and 600. The top 100 shooters then shoot 2&15 at 900 and 1000 carrying only the scores from stage II forward.
In Queen's I you could be on any one of 7 relay during the day. Queen's II is one relay as is the final. This is random squadding and between ranges on each stage you may have to move 17 targets to your right then 30 targets left for the next range.

 

[Maple57]

To maynards point, to keep people interested, the match format could allow the losers to continue to shoot the same way... losers shoot against other losers and winners shoot against other winners, just to keep interest and to help them learn.

While the point is true where the same names are usually near the top, luck may very well still be the deciding factor among those top shooters.

If we took the top 10 shooters in the country and put them side by side in this side by side elimination format, the outcome would be quite certain.

If we took the same 10 shooters and had them all shoot for score in different places and at different times, the outcome would be luck. Might just as well have a raffle.

 

[Canuck1977]

What Maynard is getting at is you can shoot or you can’t in any condition. Hence the same top shooters. A large part of TR shooting is being able to perform in any condition as on the lead up to the queens plate you will get a hard round. The good shooters make it through. It’s not hard to shoot a perfect score in no wind.. It’s not luck the same shooters are at the top.

 

[maynard]

To maynards point, to keep people interested, the match format could allow the losers to continue to shoot the same way... losers shoot against other losers and winners shoot against other winners, just to keep interest and to help them learn.

While the point is true where the same names are usually near the top, luck may very well still be the deciding factor among those top shooters.

If we took the top 10 shooters in the country and put them side by side in this side by side elimination format, the outcome would be quite certain.

If we took the same 10 shooters and had them all shoot for score in different places and at different times, the outcome would be luck. Might just as well have a raffle.

How motivated would you be, were say one of 2 top shooters are paired together on the first relay. One guy shoots a 50.10V and the loser of this pairing shoots a 50.9. Meanwhile on the next target over one guy shoots a 48.2 and the other shoot a 47.1. How fair is it that the guy that shot a 48.2 moves to the winners pool while the guy that shot a 50.9 moves to the loser pool? Would this not be the luck of the draw on with whom you are paired with?
How many people traveling hundreds or thousands of miles and spending several thousands of dollars in travel exp and entry fees would just love to be eliminated on their first relay? Well maybe not eliminated but sent to the loser pool? The only thing people are going to learn from this is, to never come back.

 

[Terry Perkins]

I would say that the 50.9 will keep moving on the B side, and could eventually meet up with 50.10.
I have travelled the miles and spent the money to lose many times, but have won also. It's got to be that competitive spirit, and the convivial relationships that I have with many shooters. I would do this. It piques my interest.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Bring ALOT of ammo....

Jerry

 

[Maple57]

How motivated would you be, were say one of 2 top shooters are paired together on the first relay. One guy shoots a 50.10V and the loser of this pairing shoots a 50.9. Meanwhile on the next target over one guy shoots a 48.2 and the other shoot a 47.1. How fair is it that the guy that shot a 48.2 moves to the winners pool while the guy that shot a 50.9 moves to the loser pool? Would this not be the luck of the draw on with whom you are paired with?
How many people traveling hundreds or thousands of miles and spending several thousands of dollars in travel exp and entry fees would just love to be eliminated on their first relay? Well maybe not eliminated but sent to the loser pool? The only thing people are going to learn from this is, to never come back.

I would have to say that most shooters who enter a rifle match know they have a slim chance of winning before they load their first round. They show up hoping to do well sure, but they know its a long shot.

Once the shooting starts and guys are walking off the mound with 50.8s and 50.9s and milsurp buddy got a 45.0... all denial is gone anyway.

When your 48.2 guy meets 50.10 guy, 48.2 guy will go the the B side in a hurry.

Like I said, let them keep shooting on the B side while the A shooters duke it out.

Keep in mind that we are talking about a rifle match here... Not a school.

Teachers get paid, they don't pay a match entry fee for the privilege of teaching newbs on the firing line. That is for chit chat between relays and during lunch.

 

[Maple57]

What Maynard is getting at is you can shoot or you can’t in any condition. Hence the same top shooters. A large part of TR shooting is being able to perform in any condition as on the lead up to the queens plate you will get a hard round. The good shooters make it through. It’s not hard to shoot a perfect score in no wind.. It’s not luck the same shooters are at the top.

Its luck among the group of top shooters in the traditional TR or F Class format.

You cannot seriously tell me with a straight face that the 2 best shooters on the range can be differentiated based on scores fired at different times in different places on the range under wildly different weather conditions and not call the difference anything but luck.

 

[Maple57]

Bring ALOT of ammo....

Jerry

Not so bad Jerry

512 shooters can be decided in 9 shoots. 32 shooters in 5.

With a large group, I would go head to head one time and winner moves ahead. Once it gets down to the last 8 guys, then go best 2 out of 3.

2
4
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32
64
128
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512

 

[TrxR]

I believe this is a double elimination setup. So if you loose the first round you could still end up shooting the final against a guy that never lost all weekend.

 

[Canuck1977]

Its luck among the group of top shooters in the traditional TR or F Class format.

You cannot seriously tell me with a straight face that the 2 best shooters on the range can be differentiated based on scores fired at different times in different places on the range under wildly different weather conditions and not call the difference anything but luck.

Yes. The top shooters roll with the punches.

 

[Syxx15]

Schedule a date, book a range, run and organize the match. See how many people come out to shoot this style. Get'r done! Easy peezy!

 

[Mystic Precision]

If I understood how this works, you do best out of 3 with 17rds per string... I do like (but surprised) they are using the V/5 scoring

Assume you go to 3 relays to finish first match.. win or loose, you shoot another match and assume that is 3 relays. So you are 6 X 17rds as a possible rd count.... if this occured (and no shoot offs), that is more shooting then a typical F class day (3 relays per day)... 102rds plus extras for shoot offs.

If you survive to shoot 4 stages AND all went 3X 17rds ... you are looking at a potential 204rds and anything else that comes up.

5 stages could reach 255rds and up. I think they have smaller matches the further you get in the elimination but either way....

bring ALOT of ammo.

Jerry
PS and for me.. I don't care either way. I go to a match to shoot and this might mean you get to shoot ALOT....maybe

 

[scout]

Relay roulette - we've all seen it. At the same time, the best shooters sometimes ####e the bed. It's a sport where we deal with the conditions encountered and conditions will vary within the relay,and from relay to relay. Sometimes you get a partner who runs the clock on his shot, sometimes you get someone who shoots before you acknowledge the shot. Sometimes you get squadded against the berm.

The best indicator seems to be the grand aggregate shot over 3 days or more, preferably seeded after the first day. And it's not luck - good shooters will prevail - that is why they are good shooters to begin with. The format is interesting, but all the shooters in the match have pre-qualified, so no new shooter development which is detrimental to the sport.

 

[scout]

If I understood how this works, you do best out of 3 with 17rds per string... I do like (but surprised) they are using the V/5 scoring

Speculating here, but with the shoulder to shoulder shooting, they went to the V/5 scoring, rather than the traditional US X/10 string shooting. ICFRA rules basically.

 

[Maple57]

If I understood how this works, you do best out of 3 with 17rds per string... I do like (but surprised) they are using the V/5 scoring

Assume you go to 3 relays to finish first match.. win or loose, you shoot another match and assume that is 3 relays. So you are 6 X 17rds as a possible rd count.... if this occured (and no shoot offs), that is more shooting then a typical F class day (3 relays per day)... 102rds plus extras for shoot offs.

If you survive to shoot 4 stages AND all went 3X 17rds ... you are looking at a potential 204rds and anything else that comes up.

5 stages could reach 255rds and up. I think they have smaller matches the further you get in the elimination but either way....

bring ALOT of ammo.

Jerry
PS and for me.. I don't care either way. I go to a match to shoot and this might mean you get to shoot ALOT....maybe

Keep in mind, its best 2 out of 3, so you might not need to go to the third round if one shooter wins the first two.

Basically the third round is a low round count shoot off if each shooter wins one of the two.

They don't go the full 17 rounds on the third stage, unless it takes that may to break the tie. (Not likely at 1000 yards.)

 

[Maple57]

Yes. The top shooters roll with the punches.

Well, you have curious ego based perspective that does not hold up to basic algebra, but this style of match was developed specifically to address a problem that you don't see as a problem but others obviously do.