ES first then seating depth?

staffordshires2

staffordshires2

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Hello,
thought I’d get some insight from experienced reloaders out here.
I have recently acquired a chronograph after 35 years of reloading.
I before have developed a load just by the best 5shot groups.
Now I have this chronograph, and doing some testing of my previous
loads my ES is not good. Like 100 fps.
I’d like to start developing a load for a new rifle without wasting a lot of components
Since the prices have skyrocketed..
What I have read/and know that ES is quite important so does one test the load watching ES,
then pick the load with the lowest ES, no matter what the grouping looks like, then tweak the
seating depth to acquire a decent group? Sorry for the long winded post. Thanks in advance,
for any/all responses.
 
Ladder test at 200-300m is probably the most economical way to do load development.
When you get the node that groups, then bring out the chrony so you know the velocity. ES will probably be nice with the ladder group you like.
Seating depth is one of those tweaks that can improve your groups once you got the right powder/bullet combo, otherwise playing with that before finding a node can be a rabbit hole.
 
I still choose a load based on how it groups rather than on the ES. I only shoot to 500m, but the lowest ES doesn't always produce the best groups. I find that the powder/bullet combination is by far the biggest factor, followed by COL, and then powder charge.
 
There are steps that I do:

- use once fired cases
- anneal case neck and a bit of the shoulder
- check neck thickness, skim turn as neccessary
- ensure that each case is sized the same as all others
- primers must all be seated the same, I like to crush them a small bit (move anvil close to cup).
- charge weights be as close to one as to the other ( I weigh to the 0.02 grain).
- with the use of Quick Load (QL) generate a model with the componenets that are to be used.
- This load is taken to the range and test fired, 5 shots, I check the velocities, then average them . Now check to
see if my model velocities are close to actual, if not adjust the burn rate of the powder to match velocities.
- With the 'matched velocities' in (QL) I will adjust the powder charge to get a barrel time, as I want the bullet to
exit when the muzzle is most calm.
- usually have a pretty good load for hunting and banging steel.
- For competition, initially I set the seating depth 0.008" off the lands for the afore mentioned.
- Now I load 10 rounds, each set of two is seated 0.002" deeper than the other, so 5 sets of two, no other chnages
but seating depth.
- On a tall target at 100m, with aiming point at the bottom on a vertical line, shoot two rounds, dial up 1.5 to 2", fire the
next two and so on. What your looking for is the spread of the two shots, as you go the two shots will be closer
then further away. You want two in one hole. This may be the best load with the combination of componenets
used.

To sum up be sure of your weights and measures. Extreme spread (ES) should be low, single digit preferably, but in my limited experience good long range groups are doable at 15 to 20 ft/s (ES) Looking at sub 1/2 moa groups for 5 shots and 0.8 moa for 10 shots.
 
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staffordshires2 said:
Hello,
thought I’d get some insight from experienced reloaders out here.
I have recently acquired a chronograph after 35 years of reloading.
I before have developed a load just by the best 5shot groups.
Now I have this chronograph, and doing some testing of my previous
loads my ES is not good. Like 100 fps.
I’d like to start developing a load for a new rifle without wasting a lot of components
Since the prices have skyrocketed..
What I have read/and know that ES is quite important so does one test the load watching ES,
then pick the load with the lowest ES, no matter what the grouping looks like, then tweak the
seating depth to acquire a decent group? Sorry for the long winded post. Thanks in advance,
for any/all responses.
Click to expand...

If it is new rifle, load development before 150-200 rounds will cause you to chase your tail.
 
On my new-for-2023 PRS barrel, I didn't have access to a chronograph at the time of load development. I just measured and evaluated group size at 200m, while firing 5 shot groups of increasing powder charge. After choosing the powder charge that way, I repeated while increasing bullet jump. After selecting these two values, I eventually used a chronograph and found my speed ES and SD were excellent.
 
adamg said:
On my new-for-2023 PRS barrel, I didn't have access to a chronograph at the time of load development. I just measured and evaluated group size at 200m, while firing 5 shot groups of increasing powder charge. After choosing the powder charge that way, I repeated while increasing bullet jump. After selecting these two values, I eventually used a chronograph and found my speed ES and SD were excellent.
Click to expand...

This works. ^^
 
adamg said:
On my new-for-2023 PRS barrel, I didn't have access to a chronograph at the time of load development. I just measured and evaluated group size at 200m, while firing 5 shot groups of increasing powder charge. After choosing the powder charge that way, I repeated while increasing bullet jump. After selecting these two values, I eventually used a chronograph and found my speed ES and SD were excellent.
Click to expand...

Using good quality components, reloading equipment and processes, it really isn't hard to come up with small ES/SD.

Shooters/reloaders get trapped into this fallacy that there's a magical velocity node waiting for you to unlock with a simple rest of statistical irrelevance.
 
I would be sort of like some of above posts - what is your point to achieve? If you want to talk up and brag about your ES number, then work towards that. If you want smallest group size at specific distance, then work towards that. Is nice if both come together, but often they do not - up to you to decide which is most important to you. I used to use chronograph to develop various loads - I no longer do that - I go simply by group size on target - when I am "done", then I use chronograph to find out actual velocity and ES and all that - apparently some know how to use those, to develop small groups - I do not. A paraphrase from old-time bench rest shooter Speedy Gonzales - "I do not care how fast the bullet is going, when it goes through the same hole as the last bullet did."

I think there is some conflation going on - which do you want to do? - a single cold barrel shot into the 8" kill zone on a deer, or five shots 0.009" centre-to-centre at 100 yards. Both are being done. I suspect even occasionally by the same person. But VERY different objectives, there, and more than likely VERY different rifles, sights (scopes) and loads for each ...
 
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You have a load that works. If you make a change that improves the ES, the group may get bigger. Forget the ES. Look at the groups.

I have a fair load for my 308, but I think it can be better. So my next test of 50 rounds will be:

10 of the "standard load" as a control.

10 the same but with a tighter neck tension.

10 the same but seated 20 thou longer

10 with 0.3 gr more powder

10 with 0.3 gr more powder and seated 20 thou longer


I will not measure ES because it does not matter.
 
Ganderite said:
You have a load that works. If you make a change that improves the ES, the group may get bigger. Forget the ES. Look at the groups.

I have a fair load for my 308, but I think it can be better. So my next test of 50 rounds will be:

10 of the "standard load" as a control.

10 the same but with a tighter neck tension.

10 the same but seated 20 thou longer

10 with 0.3 gr more powder

10 with 0.3 gr more powder and seated 20 thou longer


I will not measure ES because it does not matter.
Click to expand...

ES matters if you are shooting at targets at multiple distances.

If shooting at just one set range, then yeah, ES doesn't really matter.
 
kthomas said:
Satterlee method is useless for finding any so-called velocity "nodes", FYI. Way too small of sample size.
Click to expand...

:cheers:


ES is important, but more important at longer ranges of 600+ yards. I wouldn't get too caught up in that as the ultimate metric for a load, especially if your brass is from mixed lot #'s
 
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todbartell said:
:cheers:


ES is important, but more important at longer ranges of 600+ yards. I wouldn't get too caught up in that as the ultimate metric for a load, especially if your brass is from mixed lot #'s
Click to expand...

Yeah if you are using brass from mixed lots, especially more mass produced brass like Hornady, you're just going to be chasing your tail around if optimizing ES is your goal.

My hunting ammo is in the above category. At some point you just have to be fine with "good enough".
 
If you are looking for accuracy, we assume you have all the same lot number of brass, all fired an equal number of time ( and not too many shots).

The groups tell the story. ES will tell you about how much room you have for improvement.

I can recall one test where I shrunk the groups in half by increasing the neck tension by running the brass through a sizer with the expander plug removed.
 
6MT said:
Consistent neck tension will contribute to lower spread numbers.
Click to expand...

Ganderite said:
If you are looking for accuracy, we assume you have all the same lot number of brass, all fired an equal number of time ( and not too many shots).

The groups tell the story. ES will tell you about how much room you have for improvement.

I can recall one test where I shrunk the groups in half by increasing the neck tension by running the brass through a sizer with the expander plug removed.
Click to expand...

I run .002” neck tension in my bottle neck calibers. For each, matching brass. And everything else Ganderite mentioned above.

You want consistency.
 
6MT said:
I run .002” neck tension in my bottle neck calibers. For each, matching brass. And everything else Ganderite mentioned above.

You want consistency.
Click to expand...

If you're looking for optimal results, you want a consistent process, great components and great reloading equipment.

With that, it's pretty easy to put together loads that perform really well. Without one of those things, you're chasing mediocrity.
 
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