Federal Fusion Ammo.

wide mushrooms don't penetrate overly deep but they typically do more damage than narrow mushrooms like a partition or tsx.

the fusion is supposed to be a boattail bullet. the speer deep curl is a flat base. I happened to get 400 90 gr 6mm before the morons discontinued them. they go over 3150 fps and hold up better than your sierra and especially hornady 100 gr sp at 2850 fps. I like them and have killed deer with them. no problems and always an exit. put one through both shoulders of a spike buck at 170 yards. it exited. but from following the wound channel it looked like it was almost out of steam when it did.
 
So, let's look at this objectively.......

A 225 grain bullet was driven at 338 wm velocity...... i don't think this is a cartridge issue...... maybe the wrong bullet was driven......
 
c-fbmi said:
The bullet DID NOT FAIL what I find totally unimpressive is that it did not penetrate the shoulder nor did it exit on a broadside rib shot. There seem to be a lot of guys here who aren't reading what I'm writing down...........The bullets did not fail, they just did not penetrate, and what is the most distressing is that it was a 225 gn bullet from a 338. We're not talking a 130 from a 270 or a 140 from a 7-08 or a 150/165 from a 308.............we're talking a 225 gn bullet from a 338 Win Mag............and we're not talking point blank nor stupid long range, it should be well within the range where one should expect optimum performance.
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There have been arguments about spent or lost energy regarding thru penetrations or not.
 
Are .338 bullets below 250 grains not intended for use on deer?

The only fusion I have ever shot is .454 casull ammo. I will leave it off the list if elk is on the menu and carry hornady 300 xtp mags.
 
So, I think it is established that a Fusion is not high-end ammo. So why should it be expected to be a big bear pill in .338WM?

I run nothing but Partition and Barnes in my 338s, 250 and 225 grains respectively.

P.
 
Since the parent company of Federal is Vista Outdoors and they also own Savage, CCI, Alliant, Bushnell, and Speer bullets (plus a bunch more hunting related companies) it may be "probable" that unless they make specific mention of "what bullet" (eg. Federal Premium with Nosler Partition's etc), that Speer "probably" made the bullet.

I found the Fusion's even "terrible" on deer and one will never go in the chamber again when hunting any game animal. For a "supposedly Bonded" bullet it evaporated on bambi at under 20 yards with no exit and nothing larger than a grain of sand left of the bullet itself - literally looked like I poked a hole in the side of the deer, stuck in the muzzle of shotgun and let go with a #9 load - just a big blood-shot mess.

And ok, it was "super close", but it's supposed to be bonded and "stay together".
 
The fusion is/was a speer deep curl. They started life as handgun bullets specially designed for self defence then speer used the technology on rifle bullets. They simply take a lead bullet and electroplate copper on to it to a certain thickness then they are sized to perfection. I used to load them before whoever owns speer/cci/federal stopped selling them for reloaders and only using them in their factory loads. They are the perfect bonded bullets. I'm like c-fbmi and am wondering why the bullets didn't get through.
 
I am at a complete loss here gentlemen, apparently the language that I am typing and thought was English, AND supposedly talking to a group of relatively well educated and knowledgeable firearms enthusiasts, must be getting converted to Farsi or something over the ether..............everyone keeps saying he should have chosen a different bullet...........THE BULLET DID NOT FAIL, so how in God's name can ALMOST everyone on this thread keep saying he should have used a different bullet.
Let's define bullet failure maybe then we can come to some sort of communicational agreement. I define bullet failure in two ways 1) the bullet disintegrates on impact or very shortly thereafter with minimum to moderate penetration and usually massive tissue damage. Depending on point of impact on an animal may prove to be lethal quickly, possibly lethal or not lethal at all. This is generally what happens when the incorrect type of bullet is chosen for the game being hunted, like varmint bullets or match bullets on big game. 2) The opposite end of the failure scale where a bullet upsets very little doing minimal tissue and organ damage and will only likely prove to be lethal quickly if heart or CNS are hit.
So my question is, what do you call it when a supposedly medium bore rifle, shooting an appropriate weight bullet, on game which it should be clearly a perfect match, within the normal range that this cartridge should be extremely effective on this sized game, and the bullet which neither fractured nor pin holed, but acted exactly like it should have with reasonable bullet upset and tissue damage through the lungs, but failed to fully penetrate the animal, with what could be said to be almost zero resistance. And the first shot which again did not fragment but held together in one piece, expanded significantly and failed to penetrate the shoulder bone. I do not see anything in this scenario which says he should have used a different bullet..........and yet in my opinion the whole thing was a complete and utter failure despite the fact the patient died.
Hell maybe all the rest of you are right and I'm just not thinking the right way about it, and of course a different bullet would have resulted in different wound channels and performance, but this whole thing leaves me with a very uneasy feeling towards the performance of the 338 Win mag in general. I will say that given the same shot with any rifle and cartridge that I would hunt elk with, I would EXPECT at least as big a wound channel as I witnessed on that elk and I would EXPECT 2 broken shoulders and I would EXPECT one exit hole for absolute certain and likely two. I can also tell you that I have taken enough game in this size bracket, with several cartridges and bullets, to know that my expectations are not unrealistic. I will also say however that having tried the 338 several times over the years, I have always found it to be a less than spectacular killing cartridge and I have personally had to finish 2 different animals hit with 338s before they made good their escape. Both finishers were with 300 mags and finished the animal appropriately.
 
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c-fbmi said:
I am at a complete loss here gentlemen, apparently the language that I am typing and thought was English, AND supposedly talking to a group of relatively well educated and knowledgeable firearms enthusiasts, must be getting converted to Farsi or something over the ether..............everyone keeps saying he should have chosen a different bullet...........THE BULLET DID NOT FAIL, so how in God's name can ALMOST everyone on this thread keep saying he should have used a different bullet.
Let's define bullet failure maybe then we can come to some sort of communicational agreement. I define bullet failure in two ways 1) the bullet disintegrates on impact or very shortly thereafter with minimum to moderate penetration and usually massive tissue damage. Depending on point of impact on an animal may prove to be lethal quickly, possibly lethal or not lethal at all. This is generally what happens when the incorrect type of bullet is chosen for the game being hunted, like varmint bullets or match bullets on big game. 2) The opposite end of the failure scale where a bullet upsets very little doing minimal tissue and organ damage and will only likely prove to be lethal quickly if heart or CNS are hit.
So my question is, what do you call it when a supposedly medium bore rifle, shooting an appropriate weight bullet, on game which it should be clearly a perfect match, within the normal range that this cartridge should be extremely effective on this sized game, and the bullet which neither fractured nor pin holed, but acted exactly like it should have with reasonable bullet upset and tissue damage through the lungs, but failed to fully penetrate the animal, with what could be said to be almost zero resistance. And the first shot which again did not fragment but held together in one piece, expanded significantly and failed to penetrate the shoulder bone. I do not see anything in this scenario which says he should have used a different bullet..........and yet in my opinion the whole thing was a complete and utter failure despite the fact the patient died.
Hell maybe all the rest of you are right and I'm just not thinking the right way about it, and of course a different bullet would have resulted in different wound channels and performance, but this whole thing leaves me with a very uneasy feeling towards the performance of the 338 Win mag in general. I will say that given the same shot with any rifle and cartridge that I would hunt elk with, I would EXPECT at least as big a wound channel as I witnessed on that elk and I would EXPECT 2 broken shoulders and I would EXPECT one exit hole for absolute certain and likely two. I can also tell you that I have taken enough game in this size bracket, with several cartridges and bullets, to know that my expectations are not unrealistic. I will also say however that having tried the 338 several times over the years, I have always found it to be a less than spectacular killing cartridge and I have personally had to finish 2 different animals hit with 338s before they made good their escape. Both finishers were with 300 mags and finished the animal appropriately.
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Only logical option is to get some pulled fusion .338 bullets and load them in a .338 federal(or 338-06) and .340 Weatherby and see if on game performance improves. That will decide if its a cartridge or bullet issue for sure.
 
I use the Federal Fusion for my black bear hunting. I have had the experience twice of the 180 gr in .30-06 going through the the rib bone on the side facing me then traverse through the off side upper leg bone breaking it completely in half and exiting leaving very little of the bullet as fragment behind in a good size bear. Now I know that an elk is likely to be a bit bigger and tougher in that bony area where it was hit according to your description and I have no experience with elk. But as others have commented on other bullets having a hard time penetrating that same area of an elk, maybe avoid trying to hit it there and instead a bit further back and down a bit? Don't know what else there is to suggest other than shooting that joint with a .500 nitro with a monolithic solid perhaps?...
 
Just a WAG on my part here....
Many years ago I bought some of the then new Federal Premium Safari in 338 WM.
These were loaded with the 225 TBBC. I seem to recall that the advertised velocity was somewhere in the 2800-2850 fps range.

After shooting them over a chrono I was quite surprised to see they just broke 2600 fps.

Maybe velocity is a factor here but then am surprised that the bullet did not exit the elk?

Like I said, just a wild a$$ guess.
 
We used the 150 Fusion out of a 308 on 8 of 9 African animals up to size of Zebra with no issues. For Eland I borrowed the PH 375. Have also shot deer, pronghorn and black bear with it (it is my son's Tikka rifle).

No complaints....
 
I suspect that over a chronograph, this factory load is doing no where near the published velocity of 2850 fps. Of course Federal wouldn't be the first or alone in being overly optimistic with factory published velocities.

I can say with reasonable certainty if I loaded this bullet in my 340 at 3200 fps, that elk would never have needed the second shot. I suspect the first shot would likely have caused almost total bullet failure but would have penetrated the shoulder and turned the shoulder blade/knuckle into a thousand secondary projectiles and completely and utterly destroyed the entire heart lung cavity. This is conjecture of course based on what I saw of the expanded bullets and my experience with the 340.
This scenario just deepens my disdain for the 338 WM and has quite likely set me on the course of cutting my Sako Safari out to something like a 340, or even a 338-300 WM..........now that may have some possibilities..........and no action mods necessary. Then again properly handloaded with a 225 gn Part or AB to an honest 28-2900 fps it may well be a decent 0-400 mtr cartridge.

The fact that many people here have used these bullets with moderate success in many other calibers tells me the problem lies with the cartridge or load and not with the bullet........which is what I have been saying all along.
You know what scares the hell out of me is that the average non reloading hunter knows very little about bullet construction and terminal ballistics. He believes bigger is better for bigger game and he will be told by a hundred counter salesmen that the 338 with 225 grain bullets is the absolute "end all be all" for grizzlies, even coastals. WE of course know bullet construction is critical to good terminal performance, but how many sales people and non reloading hunters do? To the average Joe hunter the 338 WM is a fire breathing death machine, big bore that should kill everything up to elephants. This truly is the mind set of your average 270 using WT hunter.
The gentleman in this scenario is exactly this mind set, he doesn't know any better. When I asked him why he didn't use his 300 WM he said "Because the 338 is bigger and should kill elk better, right?" He also said that the ammo was on sale and he got a smoking deal on it and was assured by his buddy, the store owner that this was a perfect load for elk, or anything else that walked......is how he put it IIRC. Given the performance I witnessed from this load on this elk I find this advice very disturbing. However it is the opinion held by a great number of uninformed sales people and hunters out there..........VERY SCARY !!!!
I think when one steps up to a true "medium bore" which the 338 is supposed to be, they should be entitled to expect true "medium bore" performance especially when using the upper weights for the cartridge in question. It's not like he used a 180 or 185 or 200 gn bullet and expected 375 level performance. He used what should have been an appropriate weight for caliber bullet with which to hunt heavy and dangerous NA game. What I saw was anything but "medium bore" performance and wasn't even adequate 7mm or 30 cal performance IMO.
I have done my best to educate this gentleman a little bit on what he should expect as to good terminal performance. But somehow I don't think he absorbed it and was totally delighted by his kill. He thought the cartridge/bullet did a great job. Hell it smashed the sh!t out of that shoulder and the second one went right through both lungs and stopped on the hide on the far side..........perfect right? He couldn't be more wrong but because he got the elk in question he believes that all is well in Disneyland. I pointed out to him that if he hadn't been able to put that 2nd shot in him that he would have almost assuredly lost that animal. He didn't necessarily believe that either as he said the animal was totally shocked and unable to run.....f:P:. I explained to him that the only reason the bull didn't run was because he was in full rut.........the first shot didn't even take him off his feet and he was still fully capable of running quite well on three legs and the only reason he was able to finish him was because of the rut and the proximity of his cows. Still not sure he believed me.
So now I am going to have to load him some ammo with appropriate bullets and at a reasonable velocity....."soup them up a bit" as he likes to say, before he stumbles onto a grizzly and his lesson on terminal performance is potentially terminal......
 
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I tried Federal Fusions in my 280 and they were accurate but I was scared off by writings declaring that they self destructed before doing any damage.

I was using 140 grain bullets and though they did a through job on a small mule deer I wondered what their performance would be on a black bear.

I have since switched to Federal Trophy Bonded tips. One benefit of that is that Cabela's in Abbotsford was blowing them out at $32.00 a box, so I bought enough for several years of hunting.
 
So the bullet did not fail, it mushroomed as it should. It simply did not penetrate a front shoulder of solid bone and on the subsequent second shot which was placed in the ribs(forward edge I'll assume hitting lungs?) and the animal was killed and recovered results in a calibre issue because the bullet did not do a complete pass through? Sounds more like a question of physics than cartridge to me?! It's a big animal shot at 350 yards and it's dead. Not being sarcastic but I fail to see a problem?
 
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