Federal Fusion Ammo.

we all know that 338 win mag is not the best caliber on earth and Doug i agree some gun stores should not give advice on the use of some tools unless they tried and experimented themselves ..

we should get some fusion bullets to see how they behave in some medium ....
 
AAARRRRGGGGGG...........I give up !!!! Since when is a perfectly placed broadside front shoulder shot not a "well placed shot". It is my absolute favorite shot, except with a bow, or maybe a 22 Hornet, but when I'm hunting and the opportunity presents, my vertical cross hair just automatically lines up with the front leg and the horizontal falls into the lower 1/3 of the body and that critter is steaks.
 
c-fbmi said:
AAARRRRGGGGGG...........I give up !!!! Since when is a perfectly placed broadside front shoulder shot not a "well placed shot". It is my absolute favorite shot, except with a bow, or maybe a 22 Hornet, but when I'm hunting and the opportunity presents, my vertical cross hair just automatically lines up with the front leg and the horizontal falls into the lower 1/3 of the body and that critter is steaks.
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the heart is right above the elbow. the shoulder is forwards a bit from the front leg.
 
prairie lover said:
the heart is right above the elbow. the shoulder is forwards a bit from the front leg.
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I was taught to place the vertical crosshair about 2"-3" back of the tip of the elbow and the horizontal at the top of it for a heart/lung shot. The only time I ever heard anyone talk of penetrating the shoulder was at my outfitter friends place with clients who hunt dangerous game using big calibres and heavy constructed bullets.
 
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c-fbmi said:
AAARRRRGGGGGG...........I give up !!!! Since when is a perfectly placed broadside front shoulder shot not a "well placed shot". It is my absolute favorite shot, except with a bow, or maybe a 22 Hornet, but when I'm hunting and the opportunity presents, my vertical cross hair just automatically lines up with the front leg and the horizontal falls into the lower 1/3 of the body and that critter is steaks.
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You've repeatedly focused on the cartridge itself, when the bullet performance is likely the limiting factor in this particular case if the chosen shot placement is preferred, especially at that distance.

Basically, if you want to go for forward shoulder, then a stouter bullet moving faster would be a better choice. But you know this.

Really, it is a combination of three things that added up to the initial "failure". Soft projectile, moving slowly, hitting big bone. To blame this on any one thing doesn't make sense. To say that different shot placement would solve the problem is true. To say that a stouter projectile would help is true. To say that more velocity would have helped is mostly true but depends on the projectile to maximize effect.

To say that this is/was a failure inherent to the 338 mag is a bit dubious, to say the least.
 
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the spank said:
I was taught to place the vertical crosshair on the tip of the elbow and the horizontal at the top of it for a heart/lung shot. The only time I ever heard anyone talk of penetrating the shoulder was at my outfitter friends place with clients who hunt dangerous game using big calibres and heavy constructed bullets.
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The forwards shoulder shot is popular in other parts of the world, because connecting with the autonomic plexus often results in "bang-flop", and when it doesn't, it at least immobilizes the game by destruction of locomotive muscle and bone (given that bullet construction and velocity are appropriate for the task), with secondary but significant damage to vitals.
 
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c-fbmi said:
I am at a complete loss here gentlemen, apparently the language that I am typing and thought was English, AND supposedly talking to a group of relatively well educated and knowledgeable firearms enthusiasts, must be getting converted to Farsi or something over the ether..............everyone keeps saying he should have chosen a different bullet...........THE BULLET DID NOT FAIL, so how in God's name can ALMOST everyone on this thread keep saying he should have used a different bullet.
Let's define bullet failure maybe then we can come to some sort of communicational agreement. I define bullet failure in two ways 1) the bullet disintegrates on impact or very shortly thereafter with minimum to moderate penetration and usually massive tissue damage. Depending on point of impact on an animal may prove to be lethal quickly, possibly lethal or not lethal at all. This is generally what happens when the incorrect type of bullet is chosen for the game being hunted, like varmint bullets or match bullets on big game. 2) The opposite end of the failure scale where a bullet upsets very little doing minimal tissue and organ damage and will only likely prove to be lethal quickly if heart or CNS are hit.
So my question is, what do you call it when a supposedly medium bore rifle, shooting an appropriate weight bullet, on game which it should be clearly a perfect match, within the normal range that this cartridge should be extremely effective on this sized game, and the bullet which neither fractured nor pin holed, but acted exactly like it should have with reasonable bullet upset and tissue damage through the lungs, but failed to fully penetrate the animal, with what could be said to be almost zero resistance. And the first shot which again did not fragment but held together in one piece, expanded significantly and failed to penetrate the shoulder bone. I do not see anything in this scenario which says he should have used a different bullet..........and yet in my opinion the whole thing was a complete and utter failure despite the fact the patient died.
Hell maybe all the rest of you are right and I'm just not thinking the right way about it, and of course a different bullet would have resulted in different wound channels and performance, but this whole thing leaves me with a very uneasy feeling towards the performance of the 338 Win mag in general. I will say that given the same shot with any rifle and cartridge that I would hunt elk with, I would EXPECT at least as big a wound channel as I witnessed on that elk and I would EXPECT 2 broken shoulders and I would EXPECT one exit hole for absolute certain and likely two. I can also tell you that I have taken enough game in this size bracket, with several cartridges and bullets, to know that my expectations are not unrealistic. I will also say however that having tried the 338 several times over the years, I have always found it to be a less than spectacular killing cartridge and I have personally had to finish 2 different animals hit with 338s before they made good their escape. Both finishers were with 300 mags and finished the animal appropriately.
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Um. Your first post:

Can anyone tell me who's bullet Federal uses in their Fusion (gold box) line of ammo?
I was just told yesterday of yet another absolute and total bullet/cartridge failure from a 338 WM on a bull elk. Factory Fusion ammo,
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So I'm confused. Lots of people gave their experiences with FF, myself included. Most of them successful. Some of them not.

It "sounds" like the first shot was not as "good" as the hunter claimed.
It "sounds" like the animal was too ornery to die (I have seen big game absorb some horrendous damage and stay on their feet (including a 60 yard broadside shot on a white tail with a 300 win mag).

Sounds like the ammo performed perfectly.

Sounds like the shooter needs some more practice (not just shooting but with range estimation and anatomy).

Game recovered. Hunt successful.

Study this years performance, adapt and improve. Every hunt teaches us something.
 
jparent said:
Um. Your first post:



So I'm confused. Lots of people gave their experiences with FF, myself included. Most of them successful. Some of them not.

It "sounds" like the first shot was not as "good" as the hunter claimed.
It "sounds" like the animal was too ornery to die (I have seen big game absorb some horrendous damage and stay on their feet (including a 60 yard broadside shot on a white tail with a 300 win mag).

Sounds like the ammo performed perfectly.

Sounds like the shooter needs some more practice (not just shooting but with range estimation and anatomy).

Game recovered. Hunt successful.

Study this years performance, adapt and improve. Every hunt teaches us something.
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Perhaps, but on the other hand - a stouter projectile moving another 200 FPS faster might have been perfectly appropriate for that initial shot placement.

This is not to say that the bullet "failed". It simply wasn't up to the task based on all other conditions of this specific shot.

We can say the hunter "failed" but in reality the forwards shoulder shot is a perfectly legitimate kill shot to take.

It was a combination of all the factors, not one specific factor, that led to the "failure".
 
ironsighter said:
The forwards shoulder shot is popular in other parts of the world, because connecting with the autonomic plexus often results in "bang-flop", and when it doesn't, it at least immobilizes the game by destruction of locomotive muscle and bone (given that bullet construction and velocity are appropriate for the task), with secondary but significant damage to vitals.
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And as I said the clients who used to use the services of an outfitter I know often spoke of that shot placement but what most of them had in common was they were hunting dangerous game. Grizzly, Polar Bear, Cape Buffalo, Elephant, Lion etc. Blowing a a shoulder to jellied beef by sending shards of bone throughout is fine if loss of meat is not a concern. It's kind of like the first time I tried a 3.5" 10ga and shot a Canada straight on backpedaling over the decoys around 20 yards with a full choke and 2 1/4 oz of copper plated lead 2's (when lead was still legal). There was nothing salvageable to clean. The chest looked like swiss cheese when I pulled the skin open. Lesson learned.
 
Honestly, I think the meat wastage issue is a bit (sometimes a lot) exaggerated. I shoot front shoulder sometimes (not always intentionally) and yes there is wastage, but nothing that I have found to be a really big deal.

How much meat is wasted on an animal that isn't recovered?

But we are getting off topic now.
 
When my neighbor is back on days off I am going to chronograph that load.........I'm also going to load him some ammo so this never happens again. I'll give him the extra 200 fps which I would bet a dollar to a doughnut the factory is light of it's published velocity and I'll give him a bullet which will never be stopped by a shoulder again within realistic ranges.
I guess my point is more the anger with what he was led to believe about this cartridge AND this particular load, by people who he believed actually knew what they were talking about. How much game has been lost from bad advice from self proclaimed gun counter experts?
I don't give a rats a$$ about a little blood shocked meat.......as IS says, a lot more is wasted if the animal is lost............I view this like my taxidermist #####ing at me about the size of the holes I put in my sheep cape. I told him that when he could figure a way to kill a sheep without putting bullet holes in it, then he should immediately let me know..........until such time he should just shut up and do his job...sew.
My personal experience has shown me that a front shoulder shot on a broadside animal is one of the most devastating shots available, and when done correctly with an appropriate cartridge and bullet for the game being shot at, results in virtually instant debilitation with death following in seconds. If I am starving..........I'll shoot another one tomorrow..........in the same place !!!
 
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c-fbmi said:
When my neighbor is back on days off I am going to chronograph that load.........I'm also going to load him some ammo so this never happens again. I'll give him the extra 200 fps which I would bet a dollar to a doughnut the factory is light of it's published velocity and I'll give him a bullet which will never be stopped by a shoulder again within realistic ranges.
I guess my point is more the anger with what he was led to believe about this cartridge AND this particular load, by people who he believed actually knew what they were talking about. How much game has been lost from bad advice from self proclaimed gun counter experts?
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Doug, I agree. A 338WM should penetrate an elk shoulder. Thankfully I jumped from 30-06 to 375 so I avoided this issue. Another mark on the go 375 route.
 
Curious where this goes...... i rather like my 338 wm........

It's a Ruger guide gun and I am tossing partitions (225 gr) at about 2850 fps........ never had an issue on a few hogs, but not the be all and end all by any means and always open to feedback.......

But curious how a .338 partition travelling at the same speed as a .308 with same bullet (although in 180gr) could be deficient......
 
I wonder if perhaps the bullet is not a bit soft. Perhaps with the jacket being plated rather than being swaged and thus, work hardened. Couple that with an alloy that might be a touch soft and you have the perfect recipe for a bullet that goes "splat" rather than holding it's shape and doing more damage. Think of dropping a warm scoop of ice cream on the floor as opposed to a more frozen scoop. Kinda like that. Still, I would have thought that the 338 would have enough oomph to give better penetration.
 
c-fbmi said:
When my neighbor is back on days off I am going to chronograph that load.........I'm also going to load him some ammo so this never happens again. I'll give him the extra 200 fps which I would bet a dollar to a doughnut the factory is light of it's published velocity and I'll give him a bullet which will never be stopped by a shoulder again within realistic ranges.
I guess my point is more the anger with what he was led to believe about this cartridge AND this particular load, by people who he believed actually knew what they were talking about. How much game has been lost from bad advice from self proclaimed gun counter experts?
I don't give a rats a$$ about a little blood shocked meat.......as IS says, a lot more is wasted if the animal is lost............I view this like my taxidermist #####ing at me about the size of the holes I put in my sheep cape. I told him that when he could figure a way to kill a sheep without putting bullet holes in it, then he should immediately let me know..........until such time he should just shut up and do his job...sew.
My personal experience has shown me that a front shoulder shot on a broadside animal is one of the most devastating shots available, and when done correctly with an appropriate cartridge and bullet for the game being shot at, results in virtually instant debilitation with death following in seconds. If I am starving..........I'll shoot another one tomorrow..........in the same place !!!
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I think you'll find it shoots about 2640fps (with a 26" barrel)

On deer I've used Fusion ammo a couple times with the 30-30 in the 170gr load, bang flop..... no issue.

I've always believed that Fusion ammo is deer ammo. While the bullets may not "fail" on larger game, they do lack the stout construction of a truly bonded bullet, and the ability to penetrate is reduced. The jacket doesn't taper to a thicker base like the Accubond or the Interbond do.
 
BigUglyMan said:
I wonder if perhaps the bullet is not a bit soft. Perhaps with the jacket being plated rather than being swaged and thus, work hardened. Couple that with an alloy that might be a touch soft and you have the perfect recipe for a bullet that goes "splat" rather than holding it's shape and doing more damage. Think of dropping a warm scoop of ice cream on the floor as opposed to a more frozen scoop. Kinda like that. Still, I would have thought that the 338 would have enough oomph to give better penetration.
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I think it is a common error to assume that the 338 has dramatically more oomph than brisk .30 caliber cartridges, regardless of the projectile. In reality, bullet construction is just as important for the 338 as any other.
 
SB..........I doubt you will have any problems with your load in your 338. It should be an excellent killer and should perform the way one might expect a 338 to perform. Is that velocity chronographed? I personally think that if one can honestly achieve 2850+ fps with a 225 Part or AB, the 338 Win mag may actually be a decent killer..........it may be just as good or even possibly better if one could get 3000 fps from a 210 Part. I do not believe that it is a cartridge that would benefit from the use of a homogenous copper bullet though. I suspect one may get a lack of bullet upset and find yourself at the other end of the bullet failure spectrum.
 
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