First Dealings With Tikka T3......Very Unimpressed

[BCBRAD]

BC Brad,

Just curious, could you elaborate on your statement "The 'wimpy' recoil lug is part of a 'return to battery' system."

I thought I understood "return to battery" but I don't understand how a recoil lug plays a part in it?

There needs to be slight movement under recoil before the barreled action returns to battery. You only want contact with the front face of the lug to the front face of the action recess.

Some folks go for a larger, aftermarket, dimension recoil lug, mostly made of steel. This system and some bedding ideas (like following the Rem 700 way of doing it) negate the return to battery system designed for the Tikka.

Not arguing the way they do things but could be another small engineering item that contributes to the over all accuracy.

 

[wilbar]

There needs to be slight movement under recoil before the barreled action returns to battery. You only want contact with the front face of the lug to the front face of the action recess.

Some folks go for a larger, aftermarket, dimension recoil lug, mostly made of steel. This system and some bedding ideas (like following the Rem 700 way of doing it) negate the return to battery system designed for the Tikka.

Not arguing the way they do things but could be another small engineering item that contributes to the over all accuracy.

Thanks for explaining. That lines up exactly with my understanding however my ideals are solidly formed by the R700 way of thinking ;-)

Once again every rifle is an individual, I'm glad you are having a good experience with your rifles. There's a large group who envy the accuracy of my Ruger77mkII that would never buy Ruger themselves. There is an individual whose family has x-bolts and tikkas because they have an accuracy guarantee. He has told me he would never buy a Rem700 but he goes ga-ga over the fit and feel of my Mtn Rifle and has never owned a rifle as accurate or consistent as mine.

 

[BCBRAD]

BCBRAD............you are buying into hype.........the standard leade angles are 1.5-3 degrees and I know this because I buy reamers almost monthly......do you? You are trying to justify the short magazine of the Tikka, however you do not know what you are talking about. Jump to rifling is not the end of the world, I agree there, the Mark V has had this all it's years of over 60 now, but it is not desirable unless you are seeking the ultimate in velocity and are willing to sacrifice some level of accuracy to achieve it, in most cases. My observations and issues with the Tikka T3 are what they are, and there are many other rifles out there in the same price range that don't have these issues. It would seem that many others who have posted here have observed the same issues and have had similar problems with Tikka T3s. If they are working for you then all is good, but the many issues I have had with this one T3 tell me I will never need to own one. I'm sorry but your extended diatribe doesn't impress me nor does it negate the problems I have had with this rifle, and some of these problems I deem to be major design flaws. Whether or not you have had issues with the ejection port is not relevant..........I did, and that is all that matters to me. Whether or not yours shoot 1/2" groups is also not relevant to me because this one has yet to do better than 3" groups, and whether or not you single load yours to endeavor to reach the lands is also completely irrelevant to me, as I'm working with this rifle as a hunting rifle which must be able to load shells into the magazine and then into the rifle. I posted on here the issues I had with this rifle not to personally insult you or your choice of firearms, I did it because I was actually surprised at what a POS this T3 is after all the great things I had heard about them. How wonderfully accurate they are, how smooth they are, how great they are...............I have experienced none of the accolades.......OK it is smooth, but it ain't accurate, it ain't reliable and it ain't 1/2 the rifle I was led to believe it was. I have been buying and building and shooting rifles for more than 40 years now, I have hunted over a great portion of the globe and I have used many rifles in this time frame, and I would never recommend anyone to buy a Tikka T3............It is, in my highly experienced opinion based on the 40 years of hunting and shooting and building and fixing guns, a POS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You don't have to agree with me but I would never take this rifle afield on any hunt that I actually cared whether or not I harvested anything.............let alone a hunt I have paid 60K for.........

A forcing cone is the area of transition between the chamber of the barrel and the bore, figure you knew that but audience members may not,grin.

I've only bought one reamer this year and it is standard as you describe and noted in the 'diatribe' (didn't feel like it as I typed, but I'm used to barking out orders lol).

I don't know this for a fact, but it would be in the best interest for the boys/girls in Riihimaki to produce their proprietary reamers in house. This reamer would have SAAMI specs for the cartridge in addition to the forcing cone feature. Otherwise it would be a two step operation to produce using a standard chamber reamer then followed by the 'cone'.

I too, am surprised that the T3 did not perform for you. I'm sure you did all the normal prep for testing (nuts,bolts,screws, parallax etc.), I've found there is no advantage in torquing the action screws beyond 35 in/lbs or scope rings / bases beyond 20 in/lbs.

I like the T3 for the accuracy and economy. The first one I bought, after a lot of technical research, was a Tactical in 300 Win, weighs 10.6 lbs with a 4x16 scope, 208 A-maxes at 2924 fps (computer load ,insert smiley face) will hold slightly less than 0.4 moa at 1048 yards, an off the shelf rifle and a mid range scope. Groups do open up a bit with a 200gr AccuBond seated at magazine length.

As I said before the T3 is not a hunting rifle for me, although it will fill that role quite nicely, much prefer the Sako M-85's for that as I only require moa accuracy and the ease of manipulating the magazine.

Good talk.

 

[BCBRAD]

Thanks for explaining. That lines up exactly with my understanding however my ideals are solidly formed by the R700 way of thinking ;-)

Once again every rifle is an individual, I'm glad you are having a good experience with your rifles. There's a large group who envy the accuracy of my Ruger77mkII that would never buy Ruger themselves. There is an individual whose family has x-bolts and tikkas because they have an accuracy guarantee. He has told me he would never buy a Rem700 but he goes ga-ga over the fit and feel of my Mtn Rifle and has never owned a rifle as accurate or consistent as mine.

There are many good rifles out there, I was a rem 700 guy for decades but they are akin to the Harley I have, the basics are there but you have to spend to make it perform.......not so much with the T3.

 

[c-fbmi]

BCB............Okay so you have totally lost me on this 11* "forcing cone", the only firearms with forcing cones are revolvers. So what are you saying? That Tikka is pre washing the throat by oversizing it at the case mouth and then tapering the throat up to the engagement point of the rifling. How does this stop bullet deformation, the throat or leade portion of the chamber (correct terminology, not forcing cone in a rifle) is usually caliber plus 1/2 thou, this guides the bullet it does not deform it. To cone this portion of the leade would allow the base of the bullet to potentially yaw as it leaves the case mouth while the forward portion engages the rifling, and I can see no way it could enhance accuracy. It could also allow the bullet to obturate up to the oversize diameter of the coned portion and then have to be squeezed back down as it enters the bore proper. I cannot see how this would have any accuracy improvement potential at all. If I am understanding you correctly, this is exactly what throat erosion is and it most definitely isn't conducive to good accuracy.

 

[scott_r]

I can honestly say I have had 100% the opposite experience with every Tikka Ive owned. All my factory mags allow seating Factory OAL spec and if one wants there are options to modify or buy a mag with longer OAL. I regularly hunt in -30 for coyotes with my .204 and .223 and have never had an issue. Most accurate factory guns Ive ever owned and Ive owned a few in my day.

 

[c-fbmi]

Hey scott..........This is what I have heard for the last 10 years about Tikkas, exactly what you are saying and yet this one is a POS. I was mistaken on the magazine length criticism and they do in fact accept SAAMI length cartridges, that was "my bad" I misread the length. So we can throw that criticism out the window, but the ejection port and unreliable clearing of the case and the SO FAR lack of accuracy, I find quite distressing. But like I said some guns just don't like some combinations of bullet/powder/COAL so I am continuing with the load development and we'll see where that goes. Again, as I said earlier this isn't my rifle, so any firearm modifications are out of the question........I'm just trying to do the neighbor a favor..........

 

[BCBRAD]

BCB............Okay so you have totally lost me on this 11* "forcing cone", the only firearms with forcing cones are revolvers. So what are you saying? That Tikka is pre washing the throat by oversizing it at the case mouth and then tapering the throat up to the engagement point of the rifling. How does this stop bullet deformation, the throat or leade portion of the chamber (correct terminology, not forcing cone in a rifle) is usually caliber plus 1/2 thou, this guides the bullet it does not deform it. To cone this portion of the leade would allow the base of the bullet to potentially yaw as it leaves the case mouth while the forward portion engages the rifling, and I can see no way it could enhance accuracy. It could also allow the bullet to obturate up to the oversize diameter of the coned portion and then have to be squeezed back down as it enters the bore proper. I cannot see how this would have any accuracy improvement potential at all. If I am understanding you correctly, this is exactly what throat erosion is and it most definitely isn't conducive to good accuracy.

From an other site, also I think this feature is mentioned in one of Nathan Foster's books.

Furthermore, the chambers aren't cut deeper, they use a different chamber technology than most American made guns. Sakos and Tikkas have a tapered forcing cone (11-13 degrees) where American made rifles have a free bore that abruptly stops where the lands start. In a Tikka, you don't need to seat the bullets out, SAAMI specs are fine. Your problem is a non-problem.

The reason for seating bullets out farther is to minimize bullet damage when the bullet strikes the bore under considerable pressure. In a Tikka, the free bore tapers and greatly reduces bullet strike damage.

I invented and manufacture chamber gauges and bullet seating depth gauges. I had a customer with a Tikka tell me the bullet seating tool wouldn't work in his gun. I set out to find the reason and discovered the tapered forcing cone.

Sako & Tikka claim their guns are accurate to 1 MOA out-of-the-box. They also claim the new chamber technology reduces throat erosion. I find both of these features are very valuable. Reloading for these guns should be very forgiving.

 

[scott_r]

Hey scott..........This is what I have heard for the last 10 years about Tikkas, exactly what you are saying and yet this one is a POS. I was mistaken on the magazine length criticism and they do in fact accept SAAMI length cartridges, that was "my bad" I misread the length. So we can throw that criticism out the window, but the ejection port and unreliable clearing of the case and the SO FAR lack of accuracy, I find quite distressing. But like I said some guns just don't like some combinations of bullet/powder/COAL so I am continuing with the load development and we'll see where that goes. Again, as I said earlier this isn't my rifle, so any firearm modifications are out of the question........I'm just trying to do the neighbor a favor..........

Tikkas aren't for everyone that's for sure and there are some that are just lemons. Id suggest your friend challenge their accuracy guarantee and get them to honor it. Thanks for the report though!!

Cheers!!

 

[BCBRAD]

Hey scott..........This is what I have heard for the last 10 years about Tikkas, exactly what you are saying and yet this one is a POS. I was mistaken on the magazine length criticism and they do in fact accept SAAMI length cartridges, that was "my bad" I misread the length. So we can throw that criticism out the window, but the ejection port and unreliable clearing of the case and the SO FAR lack of accuracy, I find quite distressing. But like I said some guns just don't like some combinations of bullet/powder/COAL so I am continuing with the load development and we'll see where that goes. Again, as I said earlier this isn't my rifle, so any firearm modifications are out of the question........I'm just trying to do the neighbor a favor..........

If the rifle is mechanically sound and in spec., and been a Tikka which doesn't require fidgeting with COL, then the bullet is leaving the muzzle at an in opportune time (scatter node).
I can help you with out the undue effort of traditional methods,(need bullet specs,a fired case volume in H2O and col) 338Win's recoil does get ones attention.
If you find that the group moves from POA up and to the right (if your right handed) then the shooter is anticipating recoil.
This is one issue I have to resolve with my shooting (where do you err and why do you err)

With one 6 Dasher I have, prints the first 3 in a 3"ish group and the next two shots will stray to the upper right, this can/does open the group up to 9" at 1000 yards. This Tikka sits in a McMillan A3-5 stock and is braked, ~12.5 lbs ready to shoot.

In the above example the shooter is the one that needs work

 

[c-fbmi]

You know BCB..........I am really trying to be diplomatic, but I will have to again say no thank you to your offer of assistance...........And just for your information the load you pm'd me is exactly the load data I tried 64-68 grns of H4350 with 225 ABs and it is what gave me the abysmal accuracy.........sometimes just good old experience knows just as much as your computer. I am perfectly aware of how to chose appropriate powders for different cartridges for the best overall performance, been doing it for 45 years........
No offense but your description of supposedly how Tikka makes their leade makes absolutely no sense to me and I understand the mechanics of rifle chambers..........I am skeptical to say the least. Maybe a chamber drawing or illustration? There is no other metal to remove from a rifle bore other than the rifling. Anything more is the same effect as throat erosion......so they can only be tapering the engagement lead in of the lands and if they are not creating a rifling free area at the case mouth then there is no leade at all and this would create a whole 'nother can of worms...........

 

[Gatehouse]

BC Brad, thanks for your interesting insight. I still don't plan on owning a tikka for a hunting rifle (maybe a .223?) but I still like learning about rifles.

 

[prairie lover]

You know BCB..........I am really trying to be diplomatic, but I will have to again say no thank you to your offer of assistance...........And just for your information the load you pm'd me is exactly the load data I tried 64-68 grns of H4350 with 225 ABs and it is what gave me the abysmal accuracy.........sometimes just good old experience knows just as much as your computer. I am perfectly aware of how to chose appropriate powders for different cartridges for the best overall performance, been doing it for 45 years........
No offense but your description of supposedly how Tikka makes their leade makes absolutely no sense to me and I understand the mechanics of rifle chambers..........I am skeptical to say the least. Maybe a chamber drawing or illustration? There is no other metal to remove from a rifle bore other than the rifling. Anything more is the same effect as throat erosion......so they can only be tapering the engagement lead in of the lands and if they are not creating a rifling free area at the case mouth then there is no leade at all and this would create a whole 'nother can of worms...........

look up a chamber print. shouldn't be hard on google images. then look at there the rifling begins. that's what he is talking about

 

[BCBRAD]

BC Brad, thanks for your interesting insight. I still don't plan on owning a tikka for a hunting rifle (maybe a .223?) but I still like learning about rifles.

Thanks for your comments.

The example of the POS Tikka in 338Win needs a bit more clarification. The Sako/Tikka's has a proprietary chamber design, which is a design to reduce damage to the bullet as it contacts the rifling.

One of the 'keys' to accuracy as the brochure states, is to use their ammunition. Sako knows the lengths of their barrels and the calibers housed in those barrels, therefore they load to a node with the appropriate powder, thus the moa result.

For a handloader this is where things get interesting. With the long 'freebore/11* forcing cone' your book loads will run slow (in the 338Win/H4350 example 66.6gr will produce something in the 2600ft/s range, this is slow and does not get you to a node as the inputs are not correct for the Tikka), this is more pronounced as the bore gets larger. I've encountered this problem with my 9.3x66/370 Sako magnum. The case holds 81 grains of H2O, the bullet is the only resistance (inertia) until it hits the rifling. This space ahead of the bullet( as its seated to magazine length) must be included in the overall combustion space. The volume of this space is indicated in grains of water.

Now it is well known that a 9.3x62 and a 9.3x66 vary ~3 grains of water. It is also known (via John Barsness) that ~65 grs of Ram Shot Big Game will produce velocities in the mid 2600 ft/s range with a 250gr bullet in the '62.

So with the minor difference in case capacity my velocities were couple hundred ft/s slow. I need to bump up the pressure with more powder, QL put me where I need to be once the true effective case capacity was realized, it is 94.6 grains. I run 70.94 gr of Big Game for a velocity of 2665 ft/s, pressure is were it should be and produce 0.5moa 3 shot groups and < 1 moa 5 shot groups at 100m. QL calculations indicate I'm on a node, ES indicates I'm at OCW

The rifle turns out not to be a POS for accuracy it was the loading procedure that needed to be modified to reflect the reality of the proprietary chamber design. This is supported by looking at the two factory loads for the 9.3x66, the 250gr bullet uses 74grs of VV-N-550 and the 286gr bullet uses 71.3 grains. This ammo only fits this rifle and chamber design , there are no other manufacturers of this caliber. Therefore it is not loaded to the multitudes of different rifles and chambers , barrel lengths etc.

For one to throw the hands up and declare POS may be unfounded in this case.

Gate' the above is pure gold !

 

[6point5]

This Sako/Tikka proprietary chamber design talk is interesting and new to me. I am wondering how this might affect my hand loading for my Sako AV 270 win.

 

[BCBRAD]

This Sako/Tikka proprietary chamber design talk is interesting and new to me. I am wondering how this might affect my hand loading for my Sako AV 270 win.

Suggest load to book 'norms' and check velocity, if it is within a few %'s of book I would not worry as long as you are satisfied with the accuracy.

 

[bbobie]

So I haven't read all the post , so I'm not sure were they where sleeping at night, hotel , wall tent , home??
Is it possible that after being out side in -50 that they brought the rifles in for the night etc
That condensation would happen and then taken them back out would have some thing to do with it not foreign???
Just my 2 cents I have owened several tikkas in various calibers
and have not had any issues at all
Maybe I've just been lucky
Cheers

 

[Ltbull01]

I've had 3 T3's and they have functioned perfectly. All shot very well. Currently use one and it has brought home the game. Just wondering about firing problems in the cold - did you decrease the bolt, action? No matter what rifle you are using, if it has any amount of oils or grease, it won't fire in extreme cold. We always stripped our rifles of any grease/oil in the military when going on winter ops. Just a thought.

Quite honestly, the rifle that has given me the most amount of grief and costed me the most is my M700! Finicky AF, load & ejection issues all the time, found out the barrel/action alignment was off... you want a POS, look carefully at 700's!! Not to stir the pot, but I won't touch another 700, ever. Maybe, it's a one-off, and I'm sure every manufacturer has them.

 

[blauber]

Well afterall this talk on mag length here goes. I wasn't happy about this so modified the mag-oal of 2.933 as an example for a 260 T3. I did get it shooting 1/4 MOA at extended ranges and loaded right on lands. A benefit of extra velocity was gained as well.

I view a T3 more or less as a tool-the design doesn't really get me too excited. Whereas a vintage M700 has always felt more like artwork in my hands with less of a utility feel. That's just me and the topic is completely subjective.

I have read that Tikka's produce less velocity all things equal. My one and only experience with a T3 held this fact, perhaps a function of chamber dimensions and jump to lands...accuracy was good but my M700's with tweaking even better.

 

[c-fbmi]

This Sako/Tikka proprietary chamber design talk is interesting and new to me. I am wondering how this might affect my hand loading for my Sako AV 270 win.

The Sako AV is pre Tikka and has a normal chamber and throat...........I have several.