Found a venerable old classic, rare config.

Claybuster said:
that Winchester stood out on the gun rack like a fat girl at a supermodels convention.
Click to expand...
:D
Click to expand...

But she did stand out:D and some of us like a little body to a gun. My first time...I mean my first 25 straight was with my dad's m 21 trap with 32 inch tubes. At Vandailia he got an offer he could not refuse and sold her:(
He replaced her with a broadway superposed:(:( Now that is a fat gun.:D
 
PE90SHOOTER said:
Purdy's? Just because you pay $25,000+ for a gun doesn't mean it's any better.:p It just means you're paying for all the time it took some Limey to hand file the barrels down instead of modern manufacturing which is much more precise.:shotgun:
Click to expand...
$25,000 for a Purdey? That would be a very well used one. Put a 1 in front of that number and you'd be closer to the price of a new one.

And have you priced Winchester 21s these days? They are getting up there particularly in the higher grade subgauges. :D

http://daverifflegunsales.com.phtemp.com/21.htm
 
PE90SHOOTER said:
It just means you're paying for all the time it took some Limey to hand file the barrels down instead of modern manufacturing which is much more precise.:shotgun:
Click to expand...

PE90Shooter, I beg to differ, no CNC lathe or mill exists that can match the precision of a skilled craftsman with a file and a lamp to make smoke. While Purdey does use CNC equipment, they use it to reduce the time it takes the craftsman to finish his work. It takes less time if you start with a machined piece that is within a thou or so of its intended shape, rather than starting with a rough forging. A case in point: A few years ago there was a demand for a new, Purdey hammer gun. Purdey, however, had lost the ability to make their hammer gun, none of their existing craftsmen had ever made one and no "plans" existed at the factory. An American collector lent Purdey one of his (mint, untouched) guns, and Purdey measured it, modeled it and set about making it on their new equipment. The finely machined pieces were put together but would not function reliably. It took endless hours of hand filing and fitting to create a gun with which Purdey was happy.

Make no mistake, Purdey knows all about modern machines and machining, and they certainly have a wealth of experience making guns. They can afford whatever equipment they need, and could make higher profits if they could eliminate the craftsmen. They are not driven to meet a certain price point either. They simply want to make the best guns they can, and to date there is no substitute for an action, lock or barrel filer.

Sharptail
 
PE90SHOOTER said:
Maybe Purdey was a bad example. Costing over $100K they are bought mainly to hang on a wall to show off wealth, not be shot much.
Click to expand...
I don't agree. Purdeys and guns like them get used although English game shooting generally isn't as rough as it is here. If you visit a clays club in the UK you will see Purdey's, Hollands and other high end guns sitting on the rack beside Berettas and Brownings just as you will see Rolls and Bentleys in the parking lot beside the Fords and the Vauxhalls.
 
Last edited:
Clay, I guess I just don't see myself buying a shotgun where each and every one is hand fitted and therefore completely different in dimensions. Nice if you are wealthy and can send it back for 2 years to get a repair done.

As far as clay shooting in England goes, it won't be long before the only guns you see are Hollands and Purdeys. Only the very rich and priviledged will be allowed to have a gun.
 
Old Purdeys are well built guns and have been pitted against american guns in shooting tests but target loads are easy on a well made gun. I would like to see someone put 20,000 1/1/2 oz magnums through a Purdey and see if that made it sick because I know that a fox and a mod 21 can do it with out a problem. English guns were never put through the heavy load abuse that our guns recieve and I own a number of english guns by "best" makers and most a proved at 1/1/8 oz which is a target load yankee proof loads are 1/1/2 and develop about 16,000psi which is a stiff load.
 
:p Never, ever, saw an English gun that was shot much and did not need repeated trips to the gunsmith! They just don't shoot a much across the pond as we do with our SxS. The clay target shooters there shoot max target loads but use Italian or Jap guns that will last a few years! I have yet to see ANY English clay shooter who shoots, use an English gun!:runaway:

My Cleaborough & Johnstone is just for a few pheasants and a partridge or two, maybe a few hundred light load target ammo for a SxS event per year. That is it. Otherwise, it won't outlast me!:p

Best rgards,
Henry;)
 
This is a ludicrous argument. Henry, you of all people should know better. The English gun was never designed for the kind of use you are describing. Doubleman, put 20,000 3 oz. loads through your model 21 and see how it fares. Hal M. Hare has managed to break more than one model 21, what does that tell you? Comparing English game guns with American duck guns is apples to oranges gentlemen, and you know it. Or perhaps you would like to start comparing the handling qualities of the Yankee guns with their English counterparts?

Sharptail
 
hnachaj said:
I have yet to see ANY English clay shooter who shoots, use an English gun!
Click to expand...
Perhaps it has escaped your attention that with one exception none of the premium English makers produce a gun for clay shooting. :rolleyes:

The exception is Holland and Holland and their sporting gun isn't about to make any inroads against Browning or Beretta. Not when the price starts at £36,490 (not including VAT). The cost of a replacement trigger for one alone would easily cover the cost of a new MX8.

Sharptail said:
This is a ludicrous argument.
Click to expand...
Very true but it's not the first time the argument's been had nor likely the last. ;)
 
Interesting how discussions comparing one maker to another get animated.

Personally, as much as I love my Ansley H Fox and my Dan Lefever, I don't compare them with London best guns - they were built for different purposes, for different markets, and often to different price points. Besides, hard for me to say much about London best guns when I've never even handled one, let alone owned one.

gunut54 said:
A picture showing off the straight stock would of made us all envyous......
Click to expand...

Okay, but don't worry about turning green - the finish is pretty worn out and doesn't show the wood well at all.

DSCN0446%20(Medium).JPG
 
To be honest, I haven't had a chance to do all the measurements.:redface: I'm curious about the chambers, chokes, and stock dimensions, too. I did find time to shoot it on 2 occasions since I bought it and I found it a pretty good fit for me - perhaps a wee bit long. If I had to guess, I'd put it in the 14 3/4" range (we'll see how close I come when the facts are known).

I apologise to you and everyone who has asked for details since I posted the original description and pictures. I probably should have waited until I had more time to examine and measure everything first. Just after buying this gun, I was hit by the "perfect storm" of frenzied activity at work:runaway: combined with minor (but time consuming) medical issues with my family - at the same time that I'm trying to squeeze in all the grouse and deer hunting I can manage.

The good news is that none of the medical issues are serious, I'm on the short list for a nice promotion at work, and we've had an unprecedented grouse season (deer results TBD).

It's been so busy that I haven't even looked at the Nazi marked P38 I bought at the same time as the Fox.:eek: That may be the subject of a future thread.
 
Last edited:
Certainly not in the same class as the guns discussed in this thread, but I have a Remington Model 1894 double in very nice condition. I am impressed with how well it is made, fitted and finished. Both barrels are choked full, so I assume it was intended for waterfowling. It does throw very useful patterns.
Might be worth replacing the buttpad on the Fox - doesn't look all that well fitted, and the pull could be shortened slightly without altering the stock.
 
tiriaq said:
Might be worth replacing the buttpad on the Fox - doesn't look all that well fitted, and the pull could be shortened slightly without altering the stock.
Click to expand...

I'm certain you're right, tiriaq. There's zero chance that the butt pad is stock, so finding an original buttplate and replacing the Pachmyer would serve to restore the gun to original configuration and it would reduce the LOP by approximately 1/4". Since the current configuration feels slightly long for me, both of those outcomes would be improvements in my eyes.

There's another aspect to the "apples to limes" discussion that we haven't touched on: The English market has always tolerated (if not insisted on) periodic refinishing of guns. In North America, collectors place a premium on all-original, un-refinished guns; particularily if they're in great condition. In the UK, the "current" condition of the gun is the only thing that matters. There, a classic piece will command a higher price if it has been professionally refinished and looks to be in as new condition, as opposed to one that is unmolested and shows all of the character of aging gracefully.

This adds to the difficulty when comparing guns from makers on opposite sides of the pond. A 95 year old Purdy will typically have been tuned up and refinished 5 times over the course of its existence. Similar American doubles look like antiques next to the pristine metal and wood finish on the examples of London/Birmingham makes offered for sale.
 
There are reproduction buttplates which are copies of the original hard rubber ones. Don't know if anything specific to your Fox is available, but its possible. Failing that, a buffalo horn buttplate could be fitted, and would not be badly out of place.
 
straightshooter
As tiriag pointed out a repro butt plate is available from Galazan (part#PB100) for about $35.00 and would correct your l.o.p issuses. Just be happy that it was not cut when the pad was installed. The repro butt plates are very good quality and finish perfectly and your stock is really not that bad age considered and would clean up very well. That gun earned those marks in the stock while afield and are to be expected.
I totally agree with you on the refinishing issue but I think that buyers here are warming up to touched up guns as high grade guns are becoming more sought after, and collectors here often still want to use these guns not make them safe queens. The other issue with american guns is they get much more use as anybody here can afford to hunt weekly within a half hour from home were as on the other side of the pond you must be wealthy or save up for a hunt and travel to your hunting area, so our guns show the signs of constant use.
Tiriag
A 1894 remington in good condition is a rarity in itself as most are pretty beat up and they are a good gun but are just not on the radar of the collectors yet as they are considered common. I know that they are not as I have been looking for one that is better than the one I have which is about 65%. Hold on to it because it will increase in value in the future.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom