From Lapua SK to ELEY

[grauhanen]

There isn't a body of evidence that shows how standard and biathlon ammo differ on target. It's very difficult to measure and assess differences in .22LR match ammo powder sensitivity to temperature change outside of carefully controlled conditions. It's not readily done on the range simply by shooting when temperatures are colder.

There may be one biathlon ammo characteristic that's different than for other .22LR match ammo that's more relevant than powder temperature change sensitivities It may help explain the appeal of "biathlon ammo" for biathlon shooters.

In the case of Lapua that is the bullet shape difference between Lapua's standard .22LR match ammo and its Polar Biathlon biathlon ammo. In the case of Eley Tenex Biathlon, the cartridges themselves are reduced in diameter than Eley's standard EPS .22LR match ammo. Both differences are related to loading considerations.

 

[Williwaw]

I'd be interested to hear from people for whom temperature sensitivity is an issue. I get having to figure out where you are if shooting longer distances but for me, as a 50yd target shooter it is no big deal. After the second group I dial the scope and its good. I happen to be quite amenable to making further one click steps to better center the group if indicated.

It has to get below -16C before my scores are impacted.

 

[nelsonm64]

recently i was shooting SK at -15c with no issues. shot well.

 

[Longstud]

I'd be interested to hear from people for whom temperature sensitivity is an issue. I get having to figure out where you are if shooting longer distances but for me, as a 50yd target shooter it is no big deal. After the second group I dial the scope and its good. I happen to be quite amenable to making further one click steps to better center the group if indicated.

It has to get below -16C before my scores are impacted.

If you’re only shooting 50 yards you’ll never probably see a huge change. But when shooting PRS shoots in cold temps and shooting out to 400 yards, you’ll see a huge difference. SK Standard, SK Rifle match and Lapua CenterX are good in warm weather but when it gets below zero and colder it seriously suffers at longer ranges. If you shoot 50 yards then fine but once you start stretching beyond one hundred you’ll notice the difference. Vertical stringing is brutal! Biathlon shooting is relatively short distance in comparison so don’t think the comparisons relative. I don’t sell ammo so Ive no dog in the fight. Was just saying what I’d found with my guns and the results I’ve had.

 

[Williwaw]

Thanks Longstud, that confirms what I thought.

 

[skwerl]

The various Biathlon ammunition I have tried is POLAR, Eley Match and Eley Tenex.

During colder weather, hand warmers in my ammo box is perhaps a better solution.

Hey Mel , hand warmers in my hands works for me .
I can't blame bad groups on my ammunition.
...skwerl

 

[grauhanen]

If you’re only shooting 50 yards you’ll never probably see a huge change. But when shooting PRS shoots in cold temps and shooting out to 400 yards, you’ll see a huge difference. SK Standard, SK Rifle match and Lapua CenterX are good in warm weather but when it gets below zero and colder it seriously suffers at longer ranges. If you shoot 50 yards then fine but once you start stretching beyond one hundred you’ll notice the difference. Vertical stringing is brutal! Biathlon shooting is relatively short distance in comparison so don’t think the comparisons relative. I don’t sell ammo so Ive no dog in the fight. Was just saying what I’d found with my guns and the results I’ve had.

It's an interesting observation that in colder temperature many ammos shoot well only to 50 yards. The observation continues that SK and CX are warm weather ammos but seriously suffer at longer ranges when the temperatures are colder.

For anyone with information, when ammos shoot well to 50 regardless of whether its warm or cold, what is it that supposedly causes them to seriously suffer when distance increases when temperatures fall?

To rephrase, if trajectories are good out to 50 regardless of temps, what happens to them to cause change for the worse once beyond 50 yards when it's cold?

 

[Longstud]

It's an interesting observation that in colder temperature many ammos shoot well only to 50 yards. The observation continues that SK and CX are warm weather ammos but seriously suffer at longer ranges when the temperatures are colder.

For anyone with information, when ammos shoot well to 50 regardless of whether its warm or cold, what is it that supposedly causes them to seriously suffer when distance increases when temperatures fall?

To rephrase, if trajectories are good out to 50 regardless of temps, what happens to them to cause change for the worse once beyond 50 yards when it's cold?

Go out and shoot at 100 yards and see if you can replicate the extremely fine shooting that youve done in the past. You wont. Your groups will be bigger. If you shoot in the cold and stretch your ranges you will see the difference. I shoot all year and probably 15.000 ormore rounds a year. I know my rifles and shoot from close to 450 yards on a very regular basis. Any seasoned CRPS or Northern rimfire shooter will know what Im talking about. Theres a reason they will not shoot biathlon in the olympics when it gets to cold,-20 I believe. The ammo doesnt shoot worth crap. Two years ago there was a ORPS shoot in the extreme cold and guys that normally miss 1,2 or no targets in the whole match couldnt hit much of anything and only worse for the others. The guns went bang but without much Klang. Believe what you want but I dont see many groups posted in any of the 1/4"at50 or 1/2"at50 or in the 100 yard forum. Think there might be any correlation between the two. Easy to comment from the easy chair with the laptop. Go out and actually do some longer range shooting or even at 100 and tell me your groups are as great as the cherry picked weather thats the norm. I shoot 12 months a year and almost daily. Believe whatever DRGAS

 

[grauhanen]

Go out and shoot at 100 yards and see if you can replicate the extremely fine shooting that youve done in the past. You wont. Your groups will be bigger. If you shoot in the cold and stretch your ranges you will see the difference. I shoot all year and probably 15.000 ormore rounds a year. I know my rifles and shoot from close to 450 yards on a very regular basis. Any seasoned CRPS or Northern rimfire shooter will know what Im talking about. Theres a reason they will not shoot biathlon in the olympics when it gets to cold,-20 I believe. The ammo doesnt shoot worth crap. Two years ago there was a ORPS shoot in the extreme cold and guys that normally miss 1,2 or no targets in the whole match couldnt hit much of anything and only worse for the others. The guns went bang but without much Klang. Believe what you want but I dont see many groups posted in any of the 1/4"at50 or 1/2"at50 or in the 100 yard forum. Think there might be any correlation between the two. Easy to comment from the easy chair with the laptop. Go out and actually do some longer range shooting or even at 100 and tell me your groups are as great as the cherry picked weather thats the norm. I shoot 12 months a year and almost daily. Believe whatever DRGAS

The rules for what's too cold for biathlon events has nothing to do with ammo performance. Biathlon isn't done in very cold weather (below - 20 degrees Celsius) because of the danger of hypothermia, frostbite and lung damage from breathing in cold air. There's an obligation not to risk the health of competitors.

For readers in general, the question remains. If trajectories are good out to 50 regardless of temps, what would cause them to change for the worse once beyond 50 yards only when it's cold?

 

[boxhitch]

Possible that the difference in mean average doesn't show up at 50 with one ammo at different temps?
Testing rimfire @100 tells so much more

 

[Longstud]

Apparently if your group is 1/2” at 50yards then it’ll be 1” at 100 and 2” at 200 and 3” at 300. We all know that’s true! Go shoot in the cold! I’m not a physicist or math dr I’m just conveying what I see. Don’t care why only where they fly and some ammo suks in the cold and others seem to perform much better from my experience. I hope I’m providing entertainment as the cold can become quite boring for the fair weather shooters.

 

[OkayShooter]

The rules for what's too cold for biathlon events has nothing to do with ammo performance. Biathlon isn't done in very cold weather (below - 20 degrees Celsius) because of the danger of hypothermia, frostbite and lung damage from breathing in cold air. There's an obligation not to risk the health of competitors.

For readers in general, the question remains. If trajectories are good out to 50 regardless of temps, what would cause them to change for the worse once beyond 50 yards only when it's cold?

Fogging of lens, glare off the snow, frozen fingers. We all know little error gets multiplied at further range.

Though I do slightly better than some in the winter.

 

[grauhanen]

Fogging of lens, glare off the snow, frozen fingers. We all know little error gets multiplied at further range.

Though I do slightly better than some in the winter.

No ammo, including biathlon, will help if the issues include fogging lenses, glare from snow, or frozen fingers. The impact of cold temperatures on shooter-related results downrange is undeniable. Cold temperatures never improve shooter performance.

Of course, there may well be a temperature extreme beyond which the performance of the ammo itself begins to introduce issues. What that temperature is for .22LR match ammo remains unclear. Is it minus 5 or 10 or 20 or 30? I don't know. There's no published information available. (There may well be an extreme temperature limit for a rifle too, but that's another, albeit, related issue. For simplicity the focus here is only on the ammo, not the rifle.)

The question posed in a previous post is less about that kind of extreme than those more usually encountered in .22LR shooting, those that occur when it's cooler through the early spring and the fall, when temperatures may approach the low single digits on the Celsius scale and shooters don't suffer if exposure isn't lengthy.

Is there something about those cooler temps that impact the performance of the ammo itself? More specifically, if ammo shoots well to 50 in cooler temps, is there something that affects it only as distance to target increases?

 

[TrxR]

Ammo wouldn't of help me last match. I must have breathed into my scope and shot the rest of the match like I was looking through a thin sheet of ice.

 

[OkayShooter]

No ammo, including biathlon, will help if the issues include fogging lenses, glare from snow, or frozen fingers. The impact of cold temperatures on shooter-related results downrange is undeniable. Cold temperatures never improve shooter performance.

Of course, there may well be a temperature extreme beyond which the performance of the ammo itself begins to introduce issues. What that temperature is for .22LR match ammo remains unclear. Is it minus 5 or 10 or 20 or 30? I don't know. There's no published information available. (There may well be an extreme temperature limit for a rifle too, but that's another, albeit, related issue. For simplicity the focus here is only on the ammo, not the rifle.)

The question posed in a previous post is less about that kind of extreme than those more usually encountered in .22LR shooting, those that occur when it's cooler through the early spring and the fall, when temperatures may approach the low single digits on the Celsius scale and shooters don't suffer if exposure isn't lengthy.

Is there something about those cooler temps that impact the performance of the ammo itself? More specifically, if ammo shoots well to 50 in cooler temps, is there something that affects it only as distance to target increases?

Well you already know, since your testing shows that a couple FPS difference apparently can make a round go 1/4" off course. Cold weather = constricting metals, so tighter barrel = lower FPS, also Cold Air = Dense Air for the bullet to travel. So like I said, that little error shows greater at longer distance.

I'm still shooting in the cold and have not packed up for the season, because the conditions/temp or other excuses are not ideal for BR. so I'm basing it on real world data that I gathered. Done 2 off hand shoots in Jan and placed 3rd in both. One for rimfire rifle and other rimfire HG.

I just see that I score higher in the colder temps, then in the summer/spring. So something effects people hard in the cold. Am I just suited better to shoot in the cold than others. Due to being born in colder climate, worked in the cold or better with mentality of being cold? As why is someone with a 64, outshooting a 54?

 

[grauhanen]

Well you already know, since your testing shows that a couple FPS difference apparently can make a round go 1/4" off course. Cold weather = constricting metals, so tighter barrel = lower FPS, also Cold Air = Dense Air for the bullet to travel. So like I said, that little error shows greater at longer distance.

It's not clear what you are referring to with regard to "your testing". POI variation due to MV variation is not a claim arising because of my testing. Anyone who looks at a ballistics calculator can easily see what the MV variation means with regard to POI downrange.

With regard to the second part, do you think it's possible that colder temperatures and the effect you refer to with regard to metal constriction and "tighter" barrels allegedly causing slower MVs as well as colder air density will affect rounds the same way? Or will it for some reason affect some rounds more or less than others?

 

[Tinybear]

Went to the range today and shot a mix of Eley Contact, SK Long range match and CCI blazer at 100yards.

Shot 10 Fowler/Zeroing shots between each type of ammo. I then shot at least 2 5 shot group's. And I did this with two different rifles. 1st was a Savage B22FVSS. Second was a CZ457 Canadian.

Conditions were pretty ideal for a January day with little to no wind and not too cold of temps 1*C.

As usual the SK and Eley both shot well for me. But my best groups from both rifles came from the SK. The B22 shooting the SK had 3 outa 4 groups at or under an inch. The eley was around 1.5” from the B22. In the CZ 457 both eley and Sk had groups in around the 1.5”. As one would expect the blazer shot worst with both rifles blowing groups out to 2-2.5”.

 

[Leuchtkafer]

If you shoot 50 yards then fine but once you start stretching beyond one hundred you’ll notice the difference. Vertical stringing is brutal!

Do you notice worsened performance in the horizontal component as well, or does it appear to be limited to the vertical only?

 

[Longstud]

Apparently if your group is 1/2” at 50yards then it’ll be 1” at 100 and 2” at 200 and 3” at 300. We all know that’s true! Go shoot in the cold! I’m not a physicist or math dr I’m just conveying what I see. Don’t care why only where they fly and some ammo suks in the cold and others seem to perform much better from my experience. I hope I’m providing entertainment as the cold can become quite boring for the fair weather shooters.

Do you notice worsened performance in the horizontal component as well, or does it appear to be limited to the vertical only?

It seems to be more in the vertical than the horizontal but both are way worse from what I’ve seen. I’m not talking about one gun but five different rifles that are all very accurate. Both my custom semis (only mags are Ruger) and my three different Anschutz rifles exhibit the same traits in the cold. Some ammos(SK Rifle Match) suffer terribly with Lapua Center X being not far behind. I have given up on Center X. SK long range match seemed much better as the temps dropped. The reason I chose it for my ammo in PRS type shoots. Well when I started getting low and realized I was t going to be able to acquire more, I started testing and shooting different brands. I realize the importance of lot numbers. None of my conclusions were made with only a few lot numbers. RWS R50 worked very well but was impossible to acquire. That’s why I started testing with the Eley. Can’t see myself ever going back. Should have a beer sometime and discuss Firefly!

 

[peterdobson]

What ammo types are being used at the PRS matches where the contributors compete?

Regards,

Peter