FTR Team Canada WINS SILVER at the Worlds

Great shooting everyone and thanks for the pictures, looks like a fantastic place and really great team.
 
As some know, the next Worlds will be in Connaught, ON in 2017. Plans are in motion to start the next team program sooner rather then later.

If you have any interest at all in the National Team program, I would strongly recommend you submit your name and come out to a practise. If nothing else, you will get to meet some of the best shooters in the World and learn so much about F class shooting.

This is your chance to compete in an "Olympics" and on an even footing with any team on this planet.

The program we took to Raton this Aug was good but there is so much room to improve. The selection process will be challenging but the goal is to have a World Championship Gold medal effort when it is done.

I am sure info will be posted here and on the DCRA site when the selection program is established.

Hopefully, we will see many of you come out to give it a go. You will likely learn more in a couple of sessions then you might a few yrs on your own.

Don't feel you are "good enough"? Remember that this is a development process. It is not necessarily about where you are now but what you may become in a few years with some help, guidance and hard work.

If you have a desire to learn, improve and reach for a high level of performance, this program might just be what you are looking for.

I put down my thoughts on Canada FTR teams last relay at 1000yds.... Hope this lights a spark in your shooting goals.

Jerry

"A winning team is not about doing great when things are good... its about being Amazing when things are tough.

We know we have had great 800 and 900 yds relays but so has everyone else and not all teams are posting scores - 1000yds - last relay day 2, make or break.

Team is moving like clockwork - wind coaches are on a swivel dialing in every possible condition (yes, 8 eyes are better then 4). Conditions are far from ideal but first shooters do great.

I am put on the line early and set up. I know that my sighters will be used as pilot shots to gain some info on the winds. Aim is called, sighter 1 is sent. Shot comes up positive and a barrage of lead goes down range. I just remember watching 2 targets bop up and down with a 10 to 15sec turnaround. We score well.

Then a huge GULP as a shot doesn't go where it should. We hit a mechanical problem - OMG. But what follows next is what great team work and preplanning is all about. When it is diagnosed that there is a mech problem, tools and work on the line occurs to try and remedy WHILE other shooters take over their relays. Wind coaches are still working the air, shooters are still sending lead center ignoring the issues to their side.

Rifle has to be swapped out.

New rifle is brought on the line and "rebuilt" to fit the shooter. Shooter has never seen this rifle but hunkers down and finishes off the relay with a solid performance. That is grace under pressure!

Conditions absolutely tank and I am now part way through my relay but put on hold...... a very long hold.... and we wait.... and we wait. All other teams have now stopped but every now and then, you hear a pop. You know that shot doesn't go well cause there is no follow up shot. Just lost points. Our coaches hunker down and hold up. Things shift and hint at openings... you hear a pop nearby.... but no follow up... someone is bleeding points.... we wait.

After about 20 to 30 mins, things start to smarten up. Coaches who have not taken their eyes off the conditions start to sit up. Info is discussed, decision made, we are back in our scopes.......

BANG!...... target goes down...... start breathing in and setting up to shoot.... target goes up and its a great shot.... DIAL SCOPE..... HOLD -----....... "GO ON".... And we start launching lead. I have no idea how long or how many shots but all I can remember is cycling the action, popping another rd in, getting back on target, having an adjustment put on my scope, a direction given and squeezing the trigger... BANG..... Working that bolt again.

The last of the shots are fired, we score well, we are down to 1 shooter and...... LESS THEN 5 MINUTES LEFT. Good grief, we aren't going to finish.

If anyone said Canucks don't know how to "gun", they got schooled at what came next.

Believe it or not, there was a wait as conditions were confirmed then the call to fire was given and I have never seen anyone shoot a bolt gun that fast with that level of precision. FREAKING AMAZING.

Relay ends with just over 1 minute on the clock. That is not just fast, that is SMOKING......

So on that relay, I am proud to say a group of Canucks showed up, got it done despite the ups and down, saved points and truly deserved the medal they won.

For those reading and have not shoot Team before, I strongly recommend you give it a try. I now know why team shooting dominates F class in many other countries. It is so fun, rewarding, and takes Precision shooting to a whole new level.

Thanks again, to all and especially to the Coaches who worked with us through all the ups and downs.

It has been a honor..."
 
Great post Jerry!

I truly hope to one day have the skills to try out for such an event.

You gentlemen did Canada proud, and you have so much to be proud of. Great job!
 
Don't be shy. Come on out. The whole idea is to develop shooters so they WILL be prepared for the Worlds in 2017. This is not something one can do overnight.

Whether individual or team, getting some help, learning what good gear should be and how it should work, wind coaching, it's all so important to growing in this sport.

We would love to see a massive representation of Canadians at the Worlds in 2017. National team members or privateers... waving the Canadian flag... its all good.

There is a world championship for non National team Teams.... called the Rutland cup and many private teams take that super seriously. See the results and look at the shooters, its a whos who. So there is plenty of room to compete at any level you want.

Some of the teams were pick up teams with a mixture of shooters from all over. I am sure all had fun regardless. It's all about the sport, and having fun.

I am looking at getting in some books and other material that will help individual shooters learn more about the sport and improve. I realise that most shoot independently and it is hard to get a group together to share but we have shown that with consistent training, we can do great things on a national basis.

So if the goal is to improve, get out there and get shooting. As time allows, I hope to put up a section of my website dedicated to helping shooters improve in F class.

I am no expert but willing to share the collective knowledge gained so far. I have learnt more in the last year, then many years on my own.

It would be amazing to have such a strong response that we could make up multiple teams as the US does.

Jerry
 
Well done you guys, especially in F/TR with your Silver. We (in the GB F/TR team) had hoped to catch you up and overtake during Day 2 of the teams matches, but you were just too strong! I was partnered with Steve Baardsen (SteveB on this forum) during the FCWC Individuals which made for a great day, and learned of Canadiangunnutz through him. Your guys always looked very well organised - and we always knew where you were on the line with all that red clothing (same with the Aussies and their green and gold outfits).
 
LaurieH, welcome to 'Gunnutzs and I hope that you will be willing to share your vast experience on the sport and shooting tech from UK.

Day 1 went very well for the team match. I had a horrid day but with coaching help and most importantly, REST, got back on track.

Day 2 was pretty amazing cause the team just gelled. Things just worked and kept working even through all our ups and downs. I am sure we all knew the race was going to be very tight but no one worried about it. Maybe that was a good thing.

What surprised me was the use of 155.5gr by the GB team. It would seem light fast is not at a huge disadvantage to heavy slow even in Raton. I am unsure on the team dynamics and what ups and downs you guys faced but it would seem, your wind coaches had that range dialed in too.

The very successful use of light bullets is going to restart the debate on what makes a great team load and what would be best going into Connaught.

I have had the pleasure of shooting with some top tier palma shooters who have no problem driving those "light" palma bullets into the center but I have also seen how unforgiving that combo can be when you get it wrong.

How do you feel about a bullet weight cap? Apparently, the momentum in the US is growing

Knowing what you know now, what would you consider as a team load going forward?

Do you think GB would agree to pressure/velocity caps for the 308?

I am pretty sure Canada will continue to pursue a heavier bullet at moderate speeds. Personally, I am moving ahead with more 200gr Hybrid development as I think this is the best heavy on the market today for the 308

Look forward to your thoughts and I hope that you will visit other forums and share your vast experience.

If you ever need any info on Connaught and shooting in Canada, just ask here and we can direct you to the right people.... if they aren't already here answering your question.

Enjoy...

Jerry
 
Hi Jerry,

great to talk to you at Raton! A lot of our guys are already saving their pennies for Ottowa, and I'll pass the links here and on AccurateShooter onto them re information and help. I can't see me being there - we have a lot of younger guys moving up in the league, and I'm already half-way to being 'Nowt but a has-been!' as a good friend and fellow league shooter here in the North of England describes himself! Anyway, one 'Worlds' is enough for the time being anyway.

On bullet weights, I don't think GB league shooters would support a weight cap, to answer your last question first. Some people shoot light all the time, some heavy, but a lot switch between them. The eveidence is that conditions in a particular match might OCCASIONALLY give a big advantage from one or the other, but that over time, there's not a lot in it one way or the other. People do like to have the choice though. It's also easy to make the WRONG choice of course - take the rifle throated for the heavies because the weather forecast says the winds are going to be strong and variable, and they turn out light and stable over the weekend - or vice versa. What people have found is don't mix and match ammo in one rifle during an event as you can get into big trouble with 1,000 yard zeroes by switching bullet weights between matches.

We have a couple of very successful GB League shooters using heavies. Steve Donaldson using 230s at some frightening MV over Viht N550, and Paul Crosby with 200gn Hybrids. Both were at Raton, Paul using 155.5s as a GB team member, Steve shooting 210s as a privateer. (I don't think he could get N550 in the States, so went for another load with the 210 VLD that he knows well.) Steve has had some very good results with the 230gn Hybrid, but he's also thrown away more matches and league points through cross-shooting than anybody else I know - and I don't think these facts are unrelated! Raton wasn't a new departure sadly - I hear that the four members of the Connecticut Yankees Rutland team that included Steve and a guy who borrowed his rifle managed to shoot on other people's targets no less than eight times - not bad going for four guys over two days!

So far as the light, fast bullet decision went, we had to standardise on one bullet, or at least weight, as did everybody else. Our wind coaches are both top TR / Palma shooters, neither of whom handloads and all their wind strength calibration / judgement was based on the 155 Sierra, so they found the idea of acclimatising themselves to say 185s never mind 210s as rather daunting. The 155 or specifically 155.5 Berger was also a bullet that everybody knows works and everybody had a rifle that would shoot it fast and well. Some people had tried heavies and not got them to work previously, so adopting anything above 200gn would have been very disruptive, and I suspect some really good shots might have dropped out.

Unlike North America, the 185 hasn't got a great following in the UK - despite my best efforts in print. Most league F/TR shooters go straight from 155 to 210 and don't trust anything in between. Add to that, that we simply haven't been able to get the 185 Juggernaut into the UK in anything like the necessary quantities ever since the typical US shooter discovered how good it is. Mid weight Hybrids haven't caught on, or have been ignored - I'd very good results with the 168gn Hybrid at ~2,925 fps MV last year, but people were really puzzled as to why I'd even want to try it.

I've gone down the heavy bullet route, and rowed back. 155s and 168s are SO much more pleasant to shoot. And easy / pleasant to use = more time on reading the conditions, which in my case is a GOOD THING. The only reason I'll use anything heavier than the 168 Hybrid in future is that I own so many 185, 190, 210 etc VLDs. But, what works for me doesn't necessarily work for others. Certainly, I don't think the GB contingent lost anything at Raton by using 155s, especially as they can be driven VERY fast with small primer Lapua 'Palma' brass, and safely at that. While our 'Open' guys were struggling to get consistent performance out of their WSMs, we 'lesser' 308 users had a couple of hours load development beforehand, found our UK loads worked despite the 30-deg higher temperatures with maybe only a little fine-tuning, and then got on with it. My elevations were excellent throughout, and if and when they did go a bit 'off', I could see all the neighbouring targets showing strikes in the same places so it was nearly always a range conditrions issue. (I shot the lot at 20-22X power on the scope and could see six or more targets at 1K with the Tubb Range target spacing.) I've got to say, I've found all the post Raton hullabaloo over alleged scope problems causing poor elevations more than a little puzzling and amusing in turn. Hey, these Americans want to come and shoot at Diggle and Blair Atholl over here - then they'll discover what wind induced elevation changes really are! Also, the US F/TR team member who wanted me to sign a protest form over shooting the 1K match in the rain on day one. If we stopped shooting every time it rained heavily, we'd hardly ever get through an event and shoot all the scheduled matches. The guy said to me that he couldn't see the target, so how could you shoot? I was tempted to say get a decent scope, but in hindsight wish I'd asked him what scope power setting he used - I bet it was far too high for the available light.
 
F class in the Rain. That was unfortunate that 1 relay got hammered but c'est la vie. Like you guys, we prep for the rain cause it is going to happen eventually. Except for affecting some scores, never heard a Canuck complain on the rain if they shot on that relay.

The last time I was in Chilliwack, we shot in the rain for almost 6 hours. I know why the shooters on the Lower mainland have holes in their forends - Let the water drain out. It was sure funny to see shooters tip their rifles forward when waiting for their turn to shoot. Wasn't so funny getting drenched from the water kicked up by the muzzle blast - rained enough that there were pools on the firing line. BUT that is part of the fun.

In chatting with US shooters, more and more are finding the super heavies to be more of a pain then worth. yes, a few have had success but more people have not. It seems, the bullet of choice going forward is the 200gr Hybrid as a heavy. Surprisingly easy to tune (vs my nightmare with the 185 BT's) and can go at a decent clip due to much shorter bearing surface.

With a similar BC to the 210's (another superb bullet), easier on the shoulder and good speeds possible. So the cap may simply be a realisation of what does and doesn't work. The chatter is to cap FTR at 200gr... surprise, surprise.

A super fast 155.5 is also an interesting combo. If FTR was capped at the orig 156gr, ballistically, not much is going to be lost given what is possible today.

I know many have had success with the palma brass for running very hard but pressures are still way up there. For safety sake, some testing needs to be done to confirm F class velocities in long barrels as safe or not. But that is my soap box.

For FTR, there is no combo that will keep you in the 10 or 5 ring if you miss a wind call. Knowing that wind is 3mins vs 4 mins separates you from the rest of the pack... and that is as the sport should be.

After all the tech and fancy kit, this is still a sport about wind reading and that is the challenge I hope to enjoy for many years to come.

And that knowledge of wind reading takes years and years to develop. wouldn't surprise me to see more teams having young shooters and old wind coaches.

Look forward to discussing and debating more F class tech with you and others from overseas...

Jerry
 
Very informative indeed, thanks.

About how fast(or how slow..) are the 200gr and 210's coming out of the 308's?
 
Those of us who choose to shoot what I consider the "moderate heavy" range of bullets are really lucky when it comes to bullet choice. We can have a barrel cut with a throat that will work for the 185's 200's and 210's. This way is a particular barrel doesn't seem to care for one of them, one of the other two is likely to work. I have this situation with my current barrel- a 1-10" Rock at 32". I planned on shooting the 200, but couldn't get it tuned in time for Ottawa this year, so went with the 185 BT, which seems to tune very easily for me. Sorry Jerry- you and I seem to have opposite experiences around those two bullets!
 
I have no doubt that either bullet (185BT or 200H) can shoot superbly. Just the quirks of the barrel.

I just wish I could measure and figure out WHAT makes one barrel like a particular bullet and others digest anything you feed it. They are all speced essentially the same but we know there are differences.

Would sure make load testing so much easier/faster.....

For S&G: here is some comparisons based on what I heard being used in Raton... Sorry, cannot verify the numbers but you get the idea. Numbers generated on JBM.

bullet muzzle vel vel at 800yds vel at 1000yds drift per 2mph at 1000yds
200grH 2650fps 1642fps 1425fps 1.4 moa
185grBT 2750 1617 1378 1.5moa
155.5 3000 1595 1309 1.7 moa

215H 2550 1653 1457 1.3 moa

Yes, there were shooters reporting much higher speeds but that is too spicy to discuss.

There is a slight gain with higher mass and higher BC but NONE is going to stay in the 5 ring if you miss a 2mph wind call at sea level. I even ran numbers on super spicy loads and it was still over 1moa per 2mph. The gains for an extra 100fps is surprisingly small vs the risks and costs to get there.

My immediate goal is to find a stable and predictable set up, then learn how to drive it. Knowing that the wind is so many minutes will always be more successful then hoping a bullet will hold the scoring ring for you cause you think it got windier.
Jerry
 
You've hit the nail on the head Jerry. Find a bullet that shoots well in your setup and get the load tuned as well as possible. Then get enough of that bullet to shoot. Lots. And then shoot some more. Get your technique down. Let the coaches do their thing.
 
Was there any particular stock material that was more common in the top scorers? wood, fiberglass, Aluminium stocks, tube guns(noticed a few in the pics) "home made stocks" and such, or was it all a mix of every kind?
I'm slowly deciding what to put together for a FTR rifle for next year and debating some options while trying to keep weight down.

If there's gonna be any bullet weight caps or new restrictions on the FTR stuff, when might that come around with a formal ruling one way or another ?

thanks
 
Mystic Precision said:
Knowing that the wind is so many minutes will always be more successful then hoping a bullet will hold the scoring ring for you cause you think it got windier.
Jerry
Click to expand...

What I do is use the scoring rings on the target for wind speed and direction changes. All you need to do is work out what wind speed will blow your bullet to each scoring ring, then hold off accordingly. This way you don't need to do the math in your head, you just need to remember what change each ring represents. I keep a cheat sheet handy at the firing point. I have one for each distance.

Here's the cool part... If the wind remains at a steady speed and changes from say 3 o'clock to 1:30, just draw an imaginary line from the center of the target out to 1:30 on the ring that equates to your hold off - assuming you have not dialed in the wind change and are holding at the edge of a certain scoring ring. Just align the vertical reticle with that intersection point on the scoring ring and that will be your correct hold off.

This alone is not perfect because there are other factors, but it is very close and it works exceedingly well when the winds are making quick changes.
 
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SND said:
Was there any particular stock material that was more common in the top scorers? wood, fiberglass, Aluminium stocks, tube guns(noticed a few in the pics) "home made stocks" and such, or was it all a mix of every kind?
I'm slowly deciding what to put together for a FTR rifle for next year and debating some options while trying to keep weight down.

If there's gonna be any bullet weight caps or new restrictions on the FTR stuff, when might that come around with a formal ruling one way or another ?

thanks
Click to expand...

There wasn't anything dominant in any of the FTR gear. Everything was represented. The most common was the "BR" type stock made from composite or laminate.

Laminate stocks are gaining popularity because the composite makers have little interest in changing their product and some makers are not making their forends stiff enough.

As long as the stock fits you and allows you to shoot properly, it really doesn't matter.

Mine was likely the most complicated. Worked well but very complicated. Next rifle is going back to basics. Modifying a choate tactical stock cause they are well priced, available and built like tanks.

Any changes to the F TR rules are a ways off. Nothing has been formally requested afaik. Always keep an eye on the updates each year cause things change in a hurry and a rarely published well.

Jerry
 
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