At 2700 it would be approximately 169 moa drop.(.675 BC 8000 alt., 2950 fps) with out a custom base etc. I don't know how he could aim for it even holding off. I think Furlong is safe. I bet it comes in at a mile of so. He said it took 3 seconds for it to get there.That is approximately a mile of so with the 338.
Furlong Dethroned?????
- Thread starter armorman
- Start date
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
Canuck525 badguy#2 would not hear a kaboom from the muzzle report. Even at only 1000 yards, the sound of a muzzle blast is pretty quiet.
The shooter would ordinarily have to wait for his spotter to tell him something, but in this case his first shot was a hit. He (the shooter) would have seen that. I am very confident that I would be able to see that, react to it, and get a good well-aimed shot away at a second target in under two seconds from the time the bullet hit, and I am not a trained sniper I'm just a target shooter. So I feel pretty confident about the second shot arriving only 6s-7s after the first.
Badguy#2 certainly could move, *if* he knew that badguy#1 had been hit. I think there are many reasonable scenarios though in which he would not immediately be aware of this. Especially since the story (as I recall reading it) was that the bad guys were attacking some friendlies - the badguys were busy, in a noisy environment.
jimmym40a2 if there is one thing that the shooter would be sure of, it would be the range (to within 10m). If he hit the target, he knew the range. The story might be not be correctly reporting the range, but there's no way that there is any uncertainty at all by the shooter and his spotter about what exactly the range was.
EDIT: drache, sounds like you have quite the grandmother!
The shooter would ordinarily have to wait for his spotter to tell him something, but in this case his first shot was a hit. He (the shooter) would have seen that. I am very confident that I would be able to see that, react to it, and get a good well-aimed shot away at a second target in under two seconds from the time the bullet hit, and I am not a trained sniper I'm just a target shooter. So I feel pretty confident about the second shot arriving only 6s-7s after the first.
Badguy#2 certainly could move, *if* he knew that badguy#1 had been hit. I think there are many reasonable scenarios though in which he would not immediately be aware of this. Especially since the story (as I recall reading it) was that the bad guys were attacking some friendlies - the badguys were busy, in a noisy environment.
jimmym40a2 if there is one thing that the shooter would be sure of, it would be the range (to within 10m). If he hit the target, he knew the range. The story might be not be correctly reporting the range, but there's no way that there is any uncertainty at all by the shooter and his spotter about what exactly the range was.
EDIT: drache, sounds like you have quite the grandmother!
Its funny how all the so called experts here slam the article and call bs when they were not there. Records are meant to be broken. If we went back decades and actually had internet then how many would call bs if the report was about a Marine Sniper killing an enemy soldier at an extreme distance with an Unertl scope mounted atop a Browning M2 50 cal mg, I would suspect the same experts would call bs as well.
Well I am not an expert and I am not slamming the article.
I am simply pointing out that with no sighter shots, he managed to place 3 consecutive shots into areas smaller than the accuracy of the rifle is capable of. To me that means there was a considerable bit of luck on top of considerable skill. For instance the wobble to the left made up for the flyer to the right, the heartbeat down made up for the unseen mirage/light condition, etc. etc. It was not all skill.
I would like to see him hit the middle of a 10 inch target at that range with the first 3 shots with no sighters...
Call it what ever you want...
The 338 will definitely do the distance. The world record prairie dog hit is 3125 yards. But if you see their rigs it takes special scope bases to get the elevation you need.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...sc/2MilePrarieDogs/2MilePrarieDogShooters.htm
I'm not sure they have the elevation need to do it. Plus he mentions a 3 second flight time. that is not 2700 yards. Plus 2 kills then disabling the machine gun that would be some "unreal" shooting. I'm all for the troops but that would be some amazing shooting. I guess I don't need a Cheytac after all if this is true............LOL
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...sc/2MilePrarieDogs/2MilePrarieDogShooters.htm
I'm not sure they have the elevation need to do it. Plus he mentions a 3 second flight time. that is not 2700 yards. Plus 2 kills then disabling the machine gun that would be some "unreal" shooting. I'm all for the troops but that would be some amazing shooting. I guess I don't need a Cheytac after all if this is true............LOL
- Location
- Fraser Valley BC
Serious question.
When we hear about the world's longest confirmed kill in a combat zone, how are these shots and distances confirmed?
Do they take the spotters word that X yards was the range on the rangefinder?
Does someone come out and measure it off?
Does the army in question write the guy a nice letter saying "congrats on the new worlds record"?
Seriously...does anyone know?
When we hear about the world's longest confirmed kill in a combat zone, how are these shots and distances confirmed?
Do they take the spotters word that X yards was the range on the rangefinder?
Does someone come out and measure it off?
Does the army in question write the guy a nice letter saying "congrats on the new worlds record"?
Seriously...does anyone know?
If they get the chance they take measurements later. In this case, guys went back with a GPS and measured it that way. Thats why you sometimes hear someone say a "confirmed" distance.
LongBomber
CGN Regular
- Location
- Fernie, bc
For measuring with GPS, it all depends on the GPS they are using. If they are using the Nomad system by trimble (also sold by nightforce) they would be under 5m horizontal accuracy at each location. If they have the software they could be sub-meter accurate. I have two different Trimble systems at work, one that is palm sized, and goes for $700 is sub2m accurate under tree canopy, and the other is sub-decimeter accurate. I would think they have some pretty top notch GPS available.
If they are using the typical Garmin or similar they are likely only roughly 20m accurate at each point. The accuracy number displayed on the unit may only be a few meters, but if you ran the stats on it you would end up somewhere around 20m at 95% confidence.
As to the shooting - it takes a lot of skill to try that shot, and a good bit of luck to make 3 consecutive hits. Some days the gods smile in your favor. Anyone doubting the lethality of a 338 at that distance is pretty short sighted since most combat handguns would fall into a pretty similar energy range.
If they are using the typical Garmin or similar they are likely only roughly 20m accurate at each point. The accuracy number displayed on the unit may only be a few meters, but if you ran the stats on it you would end up somewhere around 20m at 95% confidence.
As to the shooting - it takes a lot of skill to try that shot, and a good bit of luck to make 3 consecutive hits. Some days the gods smile in your favor. Anyone doubting the lethality of a 338 at that distance is pretty short sighted since most combat handguns would fall into a pretty similar energy range.
3 out of 3 at 2478m with a .338LM...
With a 300gr scenar at 2750fps we are talking of;
- 150.6 MOA or 43.8 MILS of elevation
- Time of flight of 5.6 secondes
- Spin drift alone is 93.6" (no wind) and I did not calculate the corioliste effect that you would need to add
- At that distence each click of wind equal 9.75"
- An error of 30fps between 2 rounds is equal to 97" of difference between the 2 point of impact (elevation)
The British must work in MILS, the scope used as a total ajustement of 27.3MILS, so if by a miracle he could have used all of those 27.3 MILS (impossible) he had to turn the knob all the way down and still shoot 16.5mils higher then the target (thats 134 feets!!!)
If is rifle was capable of .2 mils accuracy at 100m and by and another miracle he could keep this ratio to 2478m (we all know it doesnt work like that) this would mean that the best he could expect would be 20" groups on a target barely visible
I'm sorry but I call BULLs**t!!!!! maybe with .50 or a .408 Cheytac even then, to make 3 out of 3 with any caliber would be like winning the lottery 3 times in a row
I think that the journalist who made the article as confused the altitude the sniper was at with the lenght of the shot
With a 300gr scenar at 2750fps we are talking of;
- 150.6 MOA or 43.8 MILS of elevation
- Time of flight of 5.6 secondes
- Spin drift alone is 93.6" (no wind) and I did not calculate the corioliste effect that you would need to add
- At that distence each click of wind equal 9.75"
- An error of 30fps between 2 rounds is equal to 97" of difference between the 2 point of impact (elevation)
The British must work in MILS, the scope used as a total ajustement of 27.3MILS, so if by a miracle he could have used all of those 27.3 MILS (impossible) he had to turn the knob all the way down and still shoot 16.5mils higher then the target (thats 134 feets!!!)
If is rifle was capable of .2 mils accuracy at 100m and by and another miracle he could keep this ratio to 2478m (we all know it doesnt work like that) this would mean that the best he could expect would be 20" groups on a target barely visible
I'm sorry but I call BULLs**t!!!!! maybe with .50 or a .408 Cheytac even then, to make 3 out of 3 with any caliber would be like winning the lottery 3 times in a row
I think that the journalist who made the article as confused the altitude the sniper was at with the lenght of the shot
Ok everyone....a little bit of reality check here. Firstly the details of this shoot are based on the reporting of journalist who was not there, used google to fill in details and is writing for a tabloid newspaper. Recall the high power sniper rifle in our local news that turns out to be a scoped 22LR? Feel free to argue the details of the story but remember the source.
GPS. Current military GPS are very accurate. Your cheap GPS from Canadian Tire....not so accurate.
Verification. Having participated in the CF verification of the 50 cal shot in 2002...there is a process and it does not march to the beat of the newspaper timelines. I would suggest that the verification process has occured or is ongoing. Like anything, the commanders on the ground would want to make darn sure the data was accurate as they would look like fools. In terms of public announcement....the official public CF recognition or confirmation...took over a year. Internally it was announced and recognized early however we (the CF) went to great lengths to keep the shooters name out of the public realm. The MoD appears to have initially done it but later decided to run with it since his name was out.
Details of the shoot. Right now, we know three hits. Brit range cards for the 338LM are a graph vice a table. The one I have, as issued to the Brit mil covers out to 3000m...so potential the shooter had the data. Who knows if there was sighter shots....they may have left that out or a previous engagement may have provided the shooting data....who knows. In any case, it appears to be some incredible shooting.
Knocking out the LMG. I think this is tabloid trash. He might have hit it but the details are added to explain things and make the story more interesting.
I suggest we wait for the MoD press release. Might provide all the arm chair facts that some are so desperate to discuss
For the record...have a look at the discussion board in 2002...there are the same types of comments on Cpl Furlongs shot.....as I said...lets wait and see rather than mentally masterbate over the "facts" as provided by the Times!
GPS. Current military GPS are very accurate. Your cheap GPS from Canadian Tire....not so accurate.
Verification. Having participated in the CF verification of the 50 cal shot in 2002...there is a process and it does not march to the beat of the newspaper timelines. I would suggest that the verification process has occured or is ongoing. Like anything, the commanders on the ground would want to make darn sure the data was accurate as they would look like fools. In terms of public announcement....the official public CF recognition or confirmation...took over a year. Internally it was announced and recognized early however we (the CF) went to great lengths to keep the shooters name out of the public realm. The MoD appears to have initially done it but later decided to run with it since his name was out.
Details of the shoot. Right now, we know three hits. Brit range cards for the 338LM are a graph vice a table. The one I have, as issued to the Brit mil covers out to 3000m...so potential the shooter had the data. Who knows if there was sighter shots....they may have left that out or a previous engagement may have provided the shooting data....who knows. In any case, it appears to be some incredible shooting.
Knocking out the LMG. I think this is tabloid trash. He might have hit it but the details are added to explain things and make the story more interesting.
I suggest we wait for the MoD press release. Might provide all the arm chair facts that some are so desperate to discuss
For the record...have a look at the discussion board in 2002...there are the same types of comments on Cpl Furlongs shot.....as I said...lets wait and see rather than mentally masterbate over the "facts" as provided by the Times!
Glock4ever
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
Arrowhead: I can dial over 27.3 mils on my S&B PM2 5-25x56mm (with 100m zero) and I only have a KPA 20MOA rail. I believe the AI Sniper system employed by the brits have 25 MOA rail so this is within the capabilities of the scope/rail combo. As well keep in mind that the reticle itself allows for holdover (It is also demarcated in Mils so theoretically if I ran out of adjustment in a FFP scope at 27 Mils I can still holdover accurately another 5 mils. It is not an impossible shot - it is difficult but not impossible. Afghanistan and other high altitude desert terrain offer some of the best shooting conditions for long distance. The wind is predictable, the heat adds to speed of the round, the air is thinner, and the terrain is very wide and open so it is possible to spot hits/misses. Like I posted earlier, arty is travelling further accurately and we were seeing huge differences from Canada in terms of range.
Morpheus32:
That was very informative. Thanks!
The one thing that strikes me as fishy about this story is the timing of it. This story was released just a few days before the UK general election on May 6th, and support for the war in Afghanistan is one of their major issues. Releasing a positive news story about a war hero making a record breaking shot is very clever.
In the UK the newspapers will publicly take sides during the election and officially endorse a candidate. The Times have officially endorsed David Cameron (Conservatives) and their plan to increase the number of troops serving in Afghanistan. The Times were handed this story on a silver platter.
I have no doubt in my mind that this Craig Harrison is an outstanding soldier but I fear his story is being exploited (or worse, embellished) for the election. The UK's future role in Afghanistan is being determined this week so maybe a bit of yardage padding was justified.
That was very informative. Thanks!
The one thing that strikes me as fishy about this story is the timing of it. This story was released just a few days before the UK general election on May 6th, and support for the war in Afghanistan is one of their major issues. Releasing a positive news story about a war hero making a record breaking shot is very clever.
In the UK the newspapers will publicly take sides during the election and officially endorse a candidate. The Times have officially endorsed David Cameron (Conservatives) and their plan to increase the number of troops serving in Afghanistan. The Times were handed this story on a silver platter.
I have no doubt in my mind that this Craig Harrison is an outstanding soldier but I fear his story is being exploited (or worse, embellished) for the election. The UK's future role in Afghanistan is being determined this week so maybe a bit of yardage padding was justified.
