Glock Blocked: SIG P320 Remains New US Army Pistol As GAO Rejects Glock Claim
- Thread starter B.H.B
- Start date
wayupnorth
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Northern Alberta
Thought you are a convert to the Glock side?
And I've said as much to Kidd X that he sounds like TDC!
TDC was opinionated but he did have some good points and I actually believed he was a good shot ( even though no one could prove otherwise!)
i dont mind them.
they go bang when i want them too.
but they feel like crap in the hand.
still love my M&P's!
i am kinda hankering for a Gen5 19 though, if what they say about them is true.
no finger groves, ambi slide release.
hell, id buy 2 of them if that turns out to be true!
It wasn't lost on price alone, the mil failed to complete durability testing as laid out in the RFP. Easy decision to fold the contest when you see the price from one offering is drastically lower than from another. Who cares if the testing is incomplete or that we aren't buying the best offering based on test data..
The VP70 was indeed the first poly striker gun. It was also a raging lemon with a horrendous trigger, a fixed barrel and blowback action, fixed sights, a manual safety, heavy, 53 parts and a heel mag release. None of which are beneficial or desirable traits. The VP70 came about over a decade before the Glock and yet production of the VP70 stopped 9 years after the introduction of the Glock.
Glock pistols have plenty going for them, let me list the highlights.
Low bore axis
Cold hammer forged barrel
Polygonal rifling
No positive safety
Reliable
Low profile controls(slide stop)
Fewest parts of any service calibre pistol
Interchangeable sights
Light weight
Slim/small dimensions
Consistent trigger pull
Short trigger pull
100% drop safe
Parts interchangeability between same models and most other models
Magazine interchangeability between like calibre guns
Large magazine capacities(compared to overall dimensions and weight)
Multiple sizes (long slide, practical/tactical, full/standard, compact, sub compact)
Identical control layout(all models) and size across multiple calibres/models
Easy to repair(one tool required)
Cheap to repair
Holster cross compatibility over multiple calibres and models
Ergonomic grip angle
Accessory rail(not on all generations)
Perhaps you missed my point. While you may think the Glock is the best, the Sig improves on it in a number of ways, not the least of which is the incredible modularity, along with a nicer trigger, and most of the points you posted about the Glock. So why not go with the Sig, particularly when it is less expensive?
I know you say reliability is better on the Glock, but can you point out the stats and show how much better it is? My guess is it is likely negligible, particularly when you get into the round counts these tests go to.
Anyways, best not to get your ego too involved in being a Glock apologist. Both are great guns, either would serve the US Army well.
Still alive
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Rainy mosquito infested part of BC
I was seriously looking at a P320. Tried one at an IDPA match. If we can get the Compact with the prohib barrel, I would be all over one. As it is, I just bought another Glock! Some people collect nostalgic and pretty guns. I like guns that are practical and work. One that I'm not worried about dinging up. For me, Glock is it.
Still alive
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Rainy mosquito infested part of BC
Same one you sold! The RTF .40! Selling my G22 to fund it. But this one comes with a 9mm barrel conversion and TruGlo sights. I wanted a Glock 9mm that I can use for 2/3G matches and for crossing the line. I also didn't want to shoot out my G19 prohib barrel as it's the only gun I use now for everything.
They get emotionally invested because they seek validation of their firearms choice and can claim some sort of "association" with the pros who use them. It's the theory behind all celebrity advertising. "Look Dude, it's a Glock. The BEST. Same gun used by Seal Team 6 and I use one too! OOO-RAH!!!!"
In this situation the gun isn't a tool. The owner is.
Ahahahaha that Mr Claybuster, is epic !!!
Lol,too funny. I just bought my first Glock, I don't give a rats ass which operator uses it, I bought it because I had a chance to shoot one,,,and I shot it very well. If I get a chance to shoot a 320 and shoot it well,I will consider getting one of those also. I'm only interested if it works for me
Still alive
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Rainy mosquito infested part of BC
Lol,too funny. I just bought my first Glock, I don't give a rats ass which operator uses it, I bought it because I had a chance to shoot one,,,and I shot it very well. If I get a chance to shoot a 320 and shoot it well,I will consider getting one of those also. I'm only interested if it works for me
Right answer!
The Glock RTF guns are great for competition, all the benefits of a really great sticky grip without the need to stipple. I also have a G22 RTF with a 9mm conversion barrel and Warren Sevigny competition sights, very close to the Vickers model of the Glock. Only problem with RTF is carrying in a IWB holster where the frame contacts your skin! But perfectly fine in a OWB holster.
As for the debate about which is best, they all do the job, and everyone has their personal preferences. I have shot the P320 a couple of times and it was fine but my personal preference is for Glock. I think access to a large selection of parts (OEM and aftermarket) and trained Glock armourers is a great asset also.
Classic. Not for 100% of the owners but the motivator for most. Dropping them out of helicopters helped along the way.
Take Care
Bob
I love the RTF2 texture and I wish that they were a regular feature.
Still alive
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Rainy mosquito infested part of BC
I will try mine when I get it in a IWB! There is more pleasure when ribbed!!
As to cheap parts and armorers, could not agree more! I have a buddy who is a certified PD Glock armorer and he has been a great resource!
Explain how or why anyone would need or want to swap frame sizes or calibres? If a compact Glock/HK/SIG does the job then there's no need for a full size gun and vise versa. The modularity thing was a retarded request by the US Army and far from a practical one. Regardless you can still swap calibres with a Glock by simply swapping slides and if you feel so inclined the trigger mechanism housing but it's not required.(applies to standard frame guns only)
The trigger is crap for a single action striker fired gun with a published pull weight of 5.5-7.5 lbs and tested models running at just over 6 lbs. And yes it is in fact a single action striker fired gun unlike the double action of a Glock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_qStEMQPts Start the video at 1:55 and watch the striker as it is RELEASED with the trigger pull and not charged and released.
Here's another write up about their striker design.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/4/23/clarifying-double-action-only-dao/
Here's my list of Glock pros, beside each line I will add a "G" for Glock or an "S" for SIG or a "B" for both guns.
Low bore axis G
Cold hammer forged barrel G
Polygonal rifling G
No positive safety B
Reliable G (The 320 has very little track record)
Low profile controls(slide stop) B(even though the location of the slide stop on the 320 is difficult to reach with your thumb as it's behind the first knuckle)
Fewest parts of any service calibre pistol G
Interchangeable sights B
Light weight G
Slim/small dimensions G
Consistent trigger pull B (although the 320 trigger could be anywhere between 5.5-7.5 lbs)
Short trigger pull S (by 1/10th of an inch and it is a single action gun. Sh*tty trigger for an SA gun)
100% drop safe B
Parts interchangeability between same models and most other models B
Magazine interchangeability between like calibre guns G
Large magazine capacities(compared to overall dimensions and weight) G (dimensionally the G is smaller and lighter than the SIG with equal capacity)
Multiple sizes (long slide, practical/tactical, full/standard, compact, sub compact) B(more options for the G)
Identical control layout(all models) and size across multiple calibres/models B
Easy to repair(one tool required) B
Cheap to repair B
Holster cross compatibility over multiple calibres and models B
Ergonomic grip angle G(sorry, the 1911 grip angle is wrong which is what the 320 is modeled after, a locked wrist is more stable and the Glock grip angle was designed around that)
Accessory rail(not on all generations) B
The only attributes the SIG has are the shorter trigger which it should as it is an SA gun not a DA gun. The gain is minimal and the weight of trigger pull is brutal for an SA gun. And the "modularity" of which no one ever needs or wants it as a calibre or size convesion kit is almost the same price as another complete gun. What has SIG designed on their own that doesn't have it's roots in a Glock? The trigger tab safety is a Glock trait. The very low profile controls and lack of manual safety is a Glock trait. The Polymer framed striker fired pistol with the aforementioned attributes was popularized by Glock. In the early years everyone poo poo'd Glocks and said they were junk and that striker fired guns and especially polymer framed guns were a fad. The lack of a manual/positive safety was dangerous and another fad. And yet here we are, a world where everyone and their dog is trying to copy the Glock recipe and sell the same product.
Here's who has attempted to make a "better" poly striker gun.
FN(multiple times)
S&W (multiple times, even got sued for patent infringement once)
Ruger(multiple times)
Springfield(multiple times)
HK
Arsenal
Diamondback
Kahr Arms(multiple times)
SIG
Walther(multiple times)
Steyr
CZ
Beretta
Remington
Avidity Arms (Rob Pincus design)
Kimber
Canik
Taurus
Caracal
The only one missing I can think of is Colt. What's odd and rather humorous is that both Beretta and S&W have a long record of making pistols with mechanical safeties and metal frames. Now both of them have moved away from both of those attributes completely. Beretta is especially entertaining as they attempted to fix the Beretta 92/M9 problems by offering the M9A3 as a replacement for the MHS trials. Beretta was politely told to go pound sand. Immediately after that they dropped their new wonder pistol of manual safety/decocker and alloy frame design for a completely polymer framed striker fired gun... I'm sure some will say that's Beretta innovation; When it's really just a pathetic attempt to jump on the polymer striker fired pistol band wagon and try and pick up the scraps of MIL/LE contracts that might get left behind by others, namely GLOCK.
You asked about reliability. Have a google look around and read the many torture tests done to Glock pistols. Notice that the vast majority of LE and elite LE units(counter terror/swat etc) and SF MIL units use Glock pistols. Here's a quick grab from the interwebs about high round count Glock pistols.
http://www.glockforum.com/How-Long-Will-Your-Glock-Last.html
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=360611
And another with some details.
http://www.tactical-life.com/combat-handguns/glock-17-9mm-torture-test/
I'm sure that's your M.O but I already know I have the best make/design of pistol around and have had for years. I surely wouldn't seek validation on this forum if I ever was in the market for it.
Lol,too funny. I just bought my first Glock, I don't give a rats ass which operator uses it, I bought it because I had a chance to shoot one,,,and I shot it very well. If I get a chance to shoot a 320 and shoot it well,I will consider getting one of those also. I'm only interested if it works for me
Good choice but if you can't shoot any pistol well then it's you that needs work not the gun.
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It can't be my MO because I don't own a Glock nor am I a closed-minded brand whore who would ever declare I owned "the best/make design of pistol" and furiously defend my choice at every turn. The Glock is a serviceable, competent firearm but certainly nothing extraordinary and is easily matched by its competitors.
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Well said. Now I'm 100% convinced we know that TDC is back on the forums. lol
