Gun hunting without a PAL question.

[ratherbefishin]

OK-here is my situation-my two boys both completed the hunter safety cource a number of years ago, and obtained hunter numbers, but only one son actually ended up getting his PAL and buying a hunting licence and hunting.This year, the one son who hunts with me can't come-so his brother[who has a hunter number but no PAL] said he would like to buy a hunting licence and tag come,rather than me not be able to go on our annual moose hunt-which will be out of a canoe.I presume this would constitute''close supervision''.
He is going to study the book and challange the test,but whether he will get a PAL in the next 3 weeks is doubtful .Is it legal for me to loan him one of my registered rifles to hunt with,since he will be in close proximety to me?
Here's another ''wild card''for the situation-we will also be including one of my adopted native[status] sons[15] in the hunt, but he is always with one of us and generally just carries a 22 in case we see a grouse.He has no licence or PAL yet.He's a bit small in stature and not ready to handle the recoil of a heavy caliber rifle that we would use for moose hunting just yet

 

[Camper]

Get that "Young fella" out and do some more hunting!!!
Follow the law of course and use common sense. (is that an oxymoron?)

 

[Greenfields]

How do you take newbies/prospective gunowners to the range? As long as they are in a PAL owners direct care it is all legal.

Cheers

 

[sealhunter]

When it comes to CFC and CO regulations and the law, it is a freakin crapshoot from the info i have been given.

I guess you have to do what you think is legal and hope it is,

This thread has me real annoyed though with all the contrasting info. Even CO's contardict themselves and especially the CFC.

???

 

[bnichols]

...contardict...

If that isn't a word it should be

 

[riden]

Two guns, two hunters, two shooters, and only one PAL and the person is not a minor?

Are you sure of that?

If that's the case, my wife can go get her tags and licenses and we can go hunting, her with a gun and me with one as long as we're beside each other?

I hope you're right in what you said.

I was told that two people shooting does not equal immediate and direct supervision and this was from the CFC crowd. If you guys are right, then I am pissed. I was given misinformation and my wife who would occasionally gone with me, would not for fear of breaking the law and was told to us.

Last time, are you guys sure.

As for being in accordance with the law when stopped by CO
I have never had one check for PALS, ..

As it was explained to me, Pharoh is 100 % legal in Alberta.

However, in some provinces he would not be. Provincial CFO's intrpret laws and some provinces have intrepreted that one PAL means one gun. Alberta does not.

 

[Uwish]

Quote: if he has a license then you don't need to even be with him, even if it is with your firearm. As long as he has a copy of the reg cert.

sounds to me like the young fellow has a hunting licence but NOT a PAL. So it is not OK to let him hunt with your guns unless he is under your direct supervision.

I was assuming he was referring to PAL not a hunting license.

Don't need a PAL if you are hunting via archery but yes, my assumption was PAL / firearms license.

 

[Nonus]

I was looking into this before and found this:

Q. Can I borrow a firearm that is registered to someone else?

Yes, if you have a firearms licence that is valid for that class of firearm. When you borrow a firearm, borrow the registration certificate too so that you can provide proof that the firearm is registered if you need to.

If you do not have a valid firearms licence, or if your licence is not valid for the class of firearm you wish to borrow, you may borrow the firearm only if you are under the direct and immediate supervision of a suitably licensed adult (aged 18 or older) and there are no court orders prohibiting you from possessing firearms or other weapons.

http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/faq/transfer_cession_e.asp#c6

 

[Wendell]

So the last two years I brought a young fellow with me on a couple bird hunts. I let him do the shooting, and he has always been right next to me with my gun. This year he passed his hunter safety test, and is in the starting process of getting his own PAL. But now that he has his own licenses, I wondered about this. Can I allow him to use one of my shotguns and use one myself if he's again right next to me? I figured there would be no problem in the past with the two of us together and only one gun. But is there anything that says I cannot allow him the use of a firearm even under supervision by a licensed shooter?

Under the Firearms Act, so long as you are in direct supervision, you are legal.
But your provincial wildlife regulations may have additional restrictions, so you'll have to check the respective province's regulations.

(In Nova Scotia, for example, a hunter is expressly limited to one firearm only.)

 

[sealhunter]

If that isn't a word it should be

I was gonan use "retardict"

Retardict;
when CFC, CO or Police contradict one another or themselves in regards to laws and regulations partaining firearms use

ie. Buddy you just retardicted what dat udder fella told me not twenty
minutes ago

You do realize don't you , that what you are saying is in direct
retardiction of what the CO said my good man.

Buddy, you just retardicted yourself

 

[blargon]

I think the unfortunate message here,along with many other situations is that CO's, police offcers, most people on the CFC's phone lines DO NOT know the law.


What Mauser 98 has posted is correct. You cannot be in possession of something in the hands of another licensed hunter, as well as what is in your hands. It is perfectly legal to hunt with 1 person having the firearms license, the other only a hunting license, so long as the direct and immediate supervision component is met.

My understanding is that it is perfectly legal to hunt with 1 person having the firearms license, the other only a hunting license, so long as the direct and immediate supervision component is met, but only one loaded firearm is being used.

He can use your gun, but cannot carry one if you also have one.

 

[riden]

My understanding is that it is perfectly legal to hunt with 1 person having the firearms license, the other only a hunting license, so long as the direct and immediate supervision component is met, but only one loaded firearm is being used.

He can use your gun, but cannot carry one if you also have one.

Like I said earlier, that is a provincial interpretation of the federal law.


In Alberta, the PAL holding supervisor can also have a firearm.

 

[Kenny_G2]

Heres the response an Ontario CO gave just a few days ago on a fishing/hunting forum I visit:



Just wondering if my friend doesn't have either Pal or Fac but a valid hunting license how far away can he be from me while we are hunting for moose or deer or small game. Does he just have to be within eye site or does he have to be within arms reach. Also would it be okay to lend him my registered gun.


CO Answer:
You must be within arms reach (immediate and direct supervision) and there must only be one firearm between the two of you. The owner of the firearm must be licenced (either a POL or a PAL) and the firearm must be registered.

This answer provided by the Firearms Officer of the Thunder Bay Police Service.

 

[sealhunter]

Like I said earlier, that is a provincial interpretation of the federal law.


In Alberta, the PAL holding supervisor can also have a firearm.

As far as that goes, i was just told that this is not true at all in Alberta.
and that only one gun may be active. I was told that it is a federal law, and whoever told me that provincial law can interpret it to mean something different, need contact the CFC so they can be corrected. This was from CFC
He even went on further to say that even at a licensed gun range where a non licensed person can try his hand at shooting, he must be under the direct supervision of a licensed individual, and that individual is not be shooting themselves, within arms reach of the unlicensed individual in a position where he or she can step in to prevent any illegal action.

I then contacted a CO in Alberta who said he does not regularly look for PALS and such, but has on occasion. He said that if you do not have one, and you are not within arms reach of somone who does, you are in illegal posession. He said that in the scenario of two guns, it is also illegal.

He went on to say that is one thing to have your kid out in the bush with you and he shoots a few cans in front of you, or has a minors license to hunt and minors permit for the gun.
He said it is completely different to knowingly abuse the law so as to not obtain the legal requirements to hunt with a firearm, which is what these scenarios are describing.

Who told you that in alberta you don't need a PAL as long as someone in your party does, and even that person can have a riflle and be hunting too?

 

[riden]

I was told this by the CFO of Southern Alberta.

CO's in AB do not enforce federal firearms laws, and I have found don't know them very well.

If what you say is true, then why has Wild West in West ED not been shut down?

 

[ratherbefishin]

''only one LOADED rifle between the two of you''....this doesn't make a lot of sense-when my son [who has the PAL]hunts with me-we often carry a lightweight 22 on our back,as well as our regular rifles.So-if I'm hunting with my son who has a licence and tag-but doesn't have his PAL-does that mean he can carry my rifle-but I can't carry the 22?
And does ''only one ''loaded'' rifle between the two of you''mean we both can carry rifles-as long as one isn't loaded?
When we have been checked by CO's in BC-they were only interested in checking hunting licences and tags-when I asked if they needed to see my PAL-they said ''no'',they only were enforcing provincal law

 

[Grouse Man]

You CANNOT leave him alone if he does NOT have a PAL. A hunting license only allows him to hunt game, it does nothing for firearm possession.

 

[david doyle]

CO's in AB do not enforce federal firearms laws, and I have found don't know them very well.

Our local COs are the same BUT are forced to carry a mountie once in a while. (must get heavy)
The COs seem to know the regs very well and do not get excited like some other LEOs.

 

[blargon]

''only one LOADED rifle between the two of you''....this doesn't make a lot of sense-when my son [who has the PAL]hunts with me-we often carry a lightweight 22 on our back,as well as our regular rifles.So-if I'm hunting with my son who has a licence and tag-but doesn't have his PAL-does that mean he can carry my rifle-but I can't carry the 22?
And does ''only one ''loaded'' rifle between the two of you''mean we both can carry rifles-as long as one isn't loaded?
When we have been checked by CO's in BC-they were only interested in checking hunting licences and tags-when I asked if they needed to see my PAL-they said ''no'',they only were enforcing provincal law

If only one is loaded, then it becomes a grey area, IMO. Technically you can carry a dozen rifles with you in the bush, as long as only one is loaded. I had asked a CO about this, as sometimes I'll carry a .410 to my watch as well, for grouse etc.

Also, you could carry 2 muzzleloaders with you to your watch, allowing a quick 2nd shot if needed, as long as only one is primed.

 

[Scar270]

''only one LOADED rifle between the two of you''....this doesn't make a lot of sense-when my son [who has the PAL]hunts with me-we often carry a lightweight 22 on our back,as well as our regular rifles.So-if I'm hunting with my son who has a licence and tag-but doesn't have his PAL-does that mean he can carry my rifle-but I can't carry the 22?
And does ''only one ''loaded'' rifle between the two of you''mean we both can carry rifles-as long as one isn't loaded?
When we have been checked by CO's in BC-they were only interested in checking hunting licences and tags-when I asked if they needed to see my PAL-they said ''no'',they only were enforcing provincal law

From the Alberta hunting regs, Game bird regulations:
It is unlawful to:
5. have more than one shotgun, for personal use, at any time while hunting migratory game birds unless each shotgun, in excess of one, is unloaded and disassembled or unloaded and cased.

If you have someone with you that second shotgun would not be for personal use. So no problems. I can find no such restriction on big game hunting.

Unless the provincial hunting regs specifically mention one gun per firearm license it wouldn't matter any more when hunting then it does at the range. I am certainly allowed to be shooting at the bench beside my buddy who is also shooting one of my guns.

Any CFO's Or CO's who are saying different are making it up on the fly. Unless there are some different provincial laws you are dealing with.