Help: German Soldier ID

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Couldn't imagine... Yet crimes continue today in the Middle East.

Here is an interesting pic supposedly of the eastern front.


Now, if we could only see the serial numbers on the bolt and receiver to prove that bolt mismatches were not front and center on these soldiers minds. ;)
I wonder what the survival odds were on the Eastern front?
 
His sentence was commuted because of pressure from ALLIED CO's amd Generals who faught against him and admitted that if he should be out to death for prisoners being killed then so should they because they rightfully believed that the rule if law applied to the victor as well as the vanquished. The Allies shot prisoners too so you better start rounding up the Allies as well during your moral crusade.....

Pretty much on the money. Chris Vokes commuted Meyer's sentence as a result of discussions he had with his staff; they were at that time CAOF and he conferred with those members who were regular army personnel (ie prewar serving members on his staff) and concluded based on this input that he would commute Meyer's sentence. One person who had some input (indirectly) was Cardinal Count Von Galen of Munster for numerous reasons - some that are not well known and not trivial. Post war Meyer worked for a brewery after his release from a German prison where he had been transferred to from Canada. One of his 'beer accounts/clients' in the mid '50's was the R.C.R. Officers Mess at Fort Henry in Soest, Westphalia. He would spend considerable time there as he had much to talk about as the RCR had also been Holland. The OC HQ company (RCR) at the time was a 'regular - prewar enrolled career infantryman'. OC HQ 'usually' signed off on civilian contracts that occurred between the unit and civilian suppliers.That individual also served in Sicily, Italy and Holland (along with Chris Vokes) and had been on Chris Vokes staff when Meyers (under some pressure) appealed his death sentence which was commuted for the reasons given above. I havent read Mark Zuehlke's works and I am sure they are well researched. But they are second hand accounts; my father would say that you dont know - unless you were there. And even then you might not know.

The decision to commute his sentence was not popular in Canada - which I think was anticipated and as a result the details were kept reasonably contained by those permanent force personnel who were directly involved. And also had access to the evidence.
 
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The SS fought against communism.
Is that so? I guess schutzstaffel just figured they didn't like Western world when they went head on with them on June 6th 1944. Organization started as bodyguard political thing at first and replaced SA but later on they were doing same thing Wehrmacht was doing - fighting the war. You really think 100% of them were obsessed with political agenda of third Reich?

Let me tell you something. Growing up in the USSR we had this thing. At grade 5 everyone became a "pioneer", later on , grade 9-10 "komsomoletc" and than, after graduating university and getting a job one would become member of the party. Not everyone was accepted, even on the early stages some people would be told no, you are not worthy to wear this or that symbol on your shirt. These people were looked down upon by their peers. Most of my class mates couldn't wait for the ceremony. Well, I was not one of them. I refused to become a "pioneer" and wear all that crap when I was 11 years old. My mom was a member of the party and had a pretty high ranking position. Imagine how things turned out after that :)
 
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Couldn't imagine... Yet crimes continue today in the Middle East.

Here is an interesting pic supposedly of the eastern front.


Interesting, never seen a map case on a junior combat NCO before. The building in the background looks East Prussian in style, likely East Prussia in 1945.
 
I'm afraid that is not an accurate statement. There exists an authentic, documented written order from the HQ of the 328th US Army Infantry Regiment, dated 21 December 1944, stating: "No SS troops or paratroopers will be taken prisoner but will be shot on sight."

Brookwood

On the face of it that certainly sounds wrong, but was it part of a order or the whole thing? "No prisoners will be taken" would be an illegal order. Shooting the enemy on sight would be a fairly normal procedure in combat.
 
Shooting prisoners is rarely a first choice option however under certain strategic circumstances it is understandable. In the case of a defeated or outnumbered army defending territory taking prisoners while conducting a withdrawl is impractical and letting soldiers go only reinforces the attacker. Under those circumstances I can understand offering no quarter. Also when armies barely have enough supplies for their own soldiers prisoners are only a burden. Atrocities were committed by all side of every war... let's do our best to avoid more
 
On another thread Purple gave a pretty good summary of some of the attributes of young men and why they were perfect for warfare. In the middle of a battlefield some actions are not the result of carefully considered options and 'strategic' objectives but rather operational exigencies or just 'shxt happens'. There was a least one 'hitler youth' of about 14/15 who had been sniping and killed a Canadian soldier - this German boy was shot while attempting to surrender. And you can be sure there was some reflection afterwards. But remorse was quickly put aside.
 
On another thread Purple gave a pretty good summary of some of the attributes of young men and why they were perfect for warfare. In the middle of a battlefield some actions are not the result of carefully considered options and 'strategic' objectives but rather operational exigencies or just 'shxt happens'. There was a least one 'hitler youth' of about 14/15 who had been sniping and killed a Canadian soldier - this German boy was shot while attempting to surrender. And you can be sure there was some reflection afterwards. But remorse was quickly put aside.

Imagine the #### storm that would have raised today? Poor little Omar Kadhr.

Grizz
 
Imagine the #### storm that would have raised today? Poor little Omar Kadhr.

Grizz
true and that would have been understandable if he had been shot. It was also extraordinary that the US military did everything medically they could to help him survive. All commendable....but then the non-combatants kept him in jail almost twice as long as Kurt Meyer!?!? That didnt make sense to me. This kid had no useful intelligence after 72 hours. My 2cents.
 
The following will offend or be old-hat to some, but maybe be of interest to others. I type it to help give a bit of context to the young'uns, because most of us live in relatively stable countries and may be fuzzy about some of the underlying mechanics of less stable ones.

It is a crude paraphrase of part of a book written by a GRU defector discussing some foreign "technical assistance" he had been involved in. It was written long after WWII, but as they say, there is nothing new under the sun. His account was internally consistent, and correlated to things I had seen mentioned in other contexts (i.e. the US invasion of Iraq), but I have no first hand experience in such things and will happily defer to those better informed.

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All regimes require at least a small militarized police force to protect its office holders against individuals who may be trying to impress Jodie Foster, but regimes that have reason to fear a military coup have a different problem; how to protect The Boss against one or more generals who might want to take his place. One strategy is to raise/designate a special branch of the armed forces to protect the regime from the rest of the armed forces. Call it the "presidential guard", "republican guard", "protection echelon", or something along those lines.

The Guard gets the best training, the best equipment, and is extensively vetted for and focused on loyalty to the regime. It is stationed in or near the seat of government, and may be personally headed by The Boss or one of his children.

Since you will be asking it to fight other parts of the armed force, you distance it from the rest of the armed forces by special uniforms, rituals, and recruiting. It is given special privileges, both to tie it more closely to the regime, and to distance it from the rest of the armed forces. If The Boss leads The Party, expect to see a blurring between The Guard and The Party.

Efficiency and over-the-top displays of loyalty to the regime are the key desirables. Those that do well become a pool of management talent (aka party stooges) to be used in other fields. Because of this and because of the extra privileges it attracts those with ambition and especially strong demonstrated loyalty (real, or feigned for self interest).

In times of external conflict, they are among the last to actually fight because reducing their strength/loyalty by losses could prevent them from being able to perform their primary function of staving off other parts of the armed forces who might be tempted to settle for a negotiated solution (which includes putting the skids under The Boss). When the are encountered late in the game (so to say), they are a noticeably better equipped/trained/motivate opponent.

Since they are more strongly tied to the regime (which will literally die if the conflict is lost) than the state (which will, by and large survive even if the conflict is lost) they are more likely to do desperate things to win. Being selected for over-the-top loyalty and indoctrinated to disdain the traditions of the rest of the armed force, The Guard is more likely to be involved in things that later get them hanged for war crimes (or shot on sight).

Regimes that do not fear a military coup find other things to spend their resources on and do not maintain a guard of this kind.

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One also wonders how much his account was camped up for book sales, because I don't expect he was still getting his pension rubles. The word of a defector is, by definition, suspect.

If "Brevity is the soul of wit", I clearly have none.
 
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That would explain a lot about the Russian "Guards" units in WWII and the Waffen SS, the Praetorian Guard of their respective regimes.
 
There is a lot wrong with that order. So you'd be ok if the Germans had issued an order to execute all airborne and elite infantry POWs?

i can tell you that it was death fight .... my grandfather from france escaped dunkirk with the help of the british, ever heard of the british soldiers executed by the german army during that evacuation? that made a resistant from the first hour when he came back.
my yugoslavian other grand father fought against the germans and there were no surrender as the captive partizans were sent to death camp ...

you can all put romantism on wars it is not ...
 
The SS fought against communism.
I respect them more than other infantry groups of that war.

Thanks for your valued input champ :jerkit:
;)
you the ss lovers had no clue about what it was ...

your parents or grand parents fought against them and now you admire them ... ever heard of civilian massacres done by those units all over europe?
 
i can tell you that it was death fight .... my grandfather from france escaped dunkirk with the help of the british, ever heard of the british soldiers executed by the german army during that evacuation? that made a resistant from the first hour when he came back.
my yugoslavian other grand father fought against the germans and there were no surrender as the captive partizans were sent to death camp ...

you can all put romantism on wars it is not ...

I'm not saying they didn't either commit war crimes. German war crimes are extensive. You can't justify that order to kill SS and airborne captured regardless.

Don't condecend to lecture me on war. I've had enough of a personal taste of it to know the reality.
 
Interesting, never seen a map case on a junior combat NCO before. The building in the background looks East Prussian in style, likely East Prussia in 1945.



Good observations. If the locale is correct, it would likely be a late war photo. They are both wearing bino's as well. Perhaps they are functioning as forward artillery observers? The Germans employed/promoted their guys into higher positions very quickly as the war progressed and attrition took its toll.
 
good on you to not like my post.

on philosophy debate you can ask if the end justifies the means but on that case the SS were a little different than german troops of the german army. you can see it differently but at the end they started the war and to end the war you have to win ....

on another note i speak german and i done a lot of competition shooting in germany and none of the people i met never admitted to be member of the nazi party during the war or even before nor of course being in the ss ... what they had at home was only collectible items ......
 
"The ends" doesn't require the killing of surrendered combatants. At low levels, "sh** happens", I get that. Heat of the moment, retribution, etc. But no higher echelon command should be giving orders to conduct such actions. We were supposed to be the good guys. Garbage like that tarnishs.
 
My late German father-in-law was a Panzer Grenadier. Wounded in the invasion of France, he convalesced at a Chateau taking care of the horses ridden by German Officers. He had access to the wine cellar and spent the best six months of his life, some of which he was able to recall!

When he got his marching orders for the Ost Front, he regarded it as a death sentence. He escaped the Stalingrad encirclement only to be captured later by Partisans. He expected to shot out of hand, but a nearby Red Army unit intervened and that saved him.

He was sent to a Siberian Gulag and was not repatriated until 1951, suffering from tuberculosis and other health concerns. Many came back much later after paying their debt to Mother Russia. He died a bitter, broken man.

He credited the Kubelwagon for getting him out of the Stalingrad battle. Being air cooled, it was easier to start with a gasoline filled helmet under the engine for a few minutes.


Now, if we could only see the serial numbers on the bolt and receiver to prove that bolt mismatches were not front and center on these soldiers minds. ;)
I wonder what the survival odds were on the Eastern front?
 
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