Higher End AR's Question

[cr5]

You must not have owned NEA then...

I've owned NEA and still have a rifle with some of their parts. My upper/lower and BCG have functioned perfectly and accept any brand of parts I've tried in them. I started with a Daniel Defense LPK then swapped in an ALG trigger, I have a DD buffer tube and barrel nut. I've had 2 different barrels in it as well (a custom 300BLK and a Bushmaster 5.56). Troy Alpha forend and now a AP customs carbon fiber forend. Everything has gone right in with no modifications. I've also had a couple different charging handles in the upper without problem. Buy a Norinco and try to do the same with that many different brands of parts.

What really puts NEA miles above Norinco is that even though a few guys have had problems with NEA at least they have a warranty and the company stands behind it's product. If you buy a Norinco and get a lemon you're on your own to try to make it work or buy another one. Plus NEA has been making corrections to their products and their newer stuff is much better than what they had a couple years ago.

 

[Onagoth]

They are gamer guns, if you want one they are good for the job, they don't hold a candle to a mil spec gun for reliability, neat rifles lots of attention to detail, and finely made, but a mil spec gun it isn't.



Sure, but performance doesn't solely sit around accuracy. Your kac will group well, but there are cheaper guns that will group as well, where they will fail is under hard use, and they will break parts sooner, and in general will not last as long. Or their accuracy will degrade faster.



I can tell you right now that cc is overpriced. Great guns, love mine but they are overpriced. And in many instances the daniel defense is the better option mostly because you can outfit one with a lighter barrel and handguard combo. Not to mention the more modular handguard options. There is nothing junk about bcm or stag or colt usa or as Armourall mentioned LMT.



Crap I totally forgot LMT. Ironic seeing my 20inch cc upper has a lmt bcg. Thanks for the reminder

I've shot thousands of rounds through my JP in some pretty rough conditions so it seems perfectly reliable to me,.... But I don't really have a benchmark as I've never owned a top tier "milspec" gun and I've never torture tested any AR

I would agree it is more oriented to competition shooters

Just out of curiosity, have you owned a JP rifle? Have you owned a top tier milspec AR?

 

[fdc]

The new Armalite M15 3 GUN at just under $2000.00 is a great AR. Essentially anything that you want upgraded has been. Timney trigger, Raptor charging handle, adjustable gas block, adjustable muzzle, SS barrel, Ergo grip, Luth AR stock.

These guns are for the range and I can't see how a mil spec rifle is going to be a benefit to the owner, the above upgrades however make a better functioning AR. I have a mil spec AR as well, it will play second fiddle from now on. It has been dead reliable and plenty accurate but it is not as easy to use as the Armalite.

See Wolverine Supplies for this gun or Google it!

 

[r34skyline]

I've shot thousands of rounds through my JP in some pretty rough conditions so it seems perfectly reliable to me,.... But I don't really have a benchmark as I've never owned a top tier "milspec" gun and I've never torture tested any AR

I would agree it is more oriented to competition shooters

Just out of curiosity, have you owned a JP rifle? Have you owned a top tier milspec AR?

If you take care of it, it should be fine, like I said JP pays a lot of attention to detail and has really good qc, but their guns aren't milspec, that being said I would never steer anyone away from a jp if they were interested in getting one for a 3 gun match or any match really.

I have never owned a jp gun, I have handled a couple at shows and one at the range.

Depends on what your classification of top tier milspec gun is.

My current crop of ars is a franken gun thats a complete bcm 11.5 upper with a dd bcg, bcm gunfighter charging handle, atrs heavy buffer, sitting on a stock core15 lower that now has a milspec buffer tube(came with a commercial tube) and a colt canada stock.

The other is a colt canada sa20 which now has a geissle ssa-e trigger and has an iur top with the cc bcg and bcm gunfighter charging handle, and magpul acs stock.

The 20 inch colt canada upper shares lower with the 11.5 and has a LMT fa bcg and the stock ar charging handle. You be the judge.

 

[Onagoth]

If you take care of it, it should be fine, like I said JP pays a lot of attention to detail and has really good qc, but their guns aren't milspec, that being said I would never steer anyone away from a jp if they were interested in getting one for a 3 gun match or any match really.

I have never owned a jp gun, I have handled a couple at shows and one at the range.

Depends on what your classification of top tier milspec gun is.

My current crop of ars is a franken gun thats a complete bcm 11.5 upper with a dd bcg, bcm gunfighter charging handle, atrs heavy buffer, sitting on a stock core15 lower that now has a milspec buffer tube(came with a commercial tube) and a colt canada stock.

The other is a colt canada sa20 which now has a geissle ssa-e trigger and has an iur top with the cc bcg and bcm gunfighter charging handle, and magpul acs stock.

The 20 inch colt canada upper shares lower with the 11.5 and has a LMT fa bcg and the stock ar charging handle. You be the judge.

Ahhh....It's interesting when someone says that JP can't hold up a candle to a high end milspec AR when they haven't owned one. On top of that you admit to only using two other brands....CC and BCM.

Milspec is not the be all and end all of quality and in fact there are a few sources out there attesting that milspec at the end of the day is really no different than anything else.

But I suppose if you have pre-conceived notions of quality on firearms that you've never used, or a confirmation bias on the ones you have, these details might not be of any importance.

 

[r34skyline]

Ahhh....It's interesting when someone says that JP can't hold up a candle to a high end milspec AR when they haven't owned one. On top of that you admit to only using two other brands....CC and BCM.

Milspec is not the be all and end all of quality and in fact there are a few sources out there attesting that milspec at the end of the day is really no different than anything else.

But I suppose if you have pre-conceived notions of quality on firearms that you've never used, or a confirmation bias on the ones you have, these details might not be of any importance.

Mil spec isn't the end all. It's a set group of standards. It doesn't change the fact that the JP are set up with tighter tolerances than mil spec. Again that's a desirable trait if you want a nice tight match gun, that's what jp does. Not so desirable if you are going to be running a lot of ammo through it in adverse conditions.

I never said they aren't quality, perhaps you can go back to my previous posts and find where I said that. In fact if you read my posts you would find I said the opposite, JP are very well built.

But they are not fighting rifles. They are not set up to be run hard in harsh conditions. If you want I will be happy to pit my cc against your jp for a torture test if you were that interested in finding out the difference or my oddball franken ars. Keep in mind that doesn't mean your jp is not a quality piece, like I said in my first post they are gamer guns. Extremely high quality ones to boot, but they don't have the durability of a mil spec gun and I am absolutely willing to stand by that statement. As far as accuracy I would be shocked if jp guns aren't more accurate than any milspec gun including kac or hk.

And technically to be accurate I also use dd and lmt bcgs so that would make 4 major mil spec brands that I use and can recommend.

 

[Onagoth]

Mil spec isn't the end all. It's a set group of standards. It doesn't change the fact that the JP are set up with tighter tolerances than mil spec. Again that's a desirable trait if you want a nice tight match gun, that's what jp does. Not so desirable if you are going to be running a lot of ammo through it in adverse conditions.

I never said they aren't quality, perhaps you can go back to my previous posts and find where I said that. In fact if you read my posts you would find I said the opposite, JP are very well built.

But they are not fighting rifles. They are not set up to be run hard in harsh conditions. If you want I will be happy to pit my cc against your jp for a torture test if you were that interested in finding out the difference or my oddball franken ars. Keep in mind that doesn't mean your jp is not a quality piece, like I said in my first post they are gamer guns. Extremely high quality ones to boot, but they don't have the durability of a mil spec gun and I am absolutely willing to stand by that statement. As far as accuracy I would be shocked if jp guns aren't more accurate than any milspec gun including kac or hk.

And technically to be accurate I also use dd and lmt bcgs so that would make 4 major mil spec brands that I use and can recommend.

The fact that I am not willing to subject my $2500 rifle to a torture test is not really evidence that your colt is better. I'm generally opposed to intentionally abusing my guns....it happens naturally, but not really in an attempt to purposely break them

The specific reference you made was the JP cannot "hold a candle to a high end milspec rifle" or something along those lines. Which by your own admission is something you don't know. There is no way you can possibly attest to the durability of the rifle having not owned one and not tested it.

Like I said in my last post....it's simply interesting to me when someone expresses an opinion on a gun they haven't owned. But fill yer boots, I'm out.

 

[thump_rrr]

Ahhh....It's interesting when someone says that JP can't hold up a candle to a high end milspec AR when they haven't owned one. On top of that you admit to only using two other brands....CC and BCM.

Milspec is not the be all and end all of quality and in fact there are a few sources out there attesting that milspec at the end of the day is really no different than anything else.

But I suppose if you have pre-conceived notions of quality on firearms that you've never used, or a confirmation bias on the ones you have, these details might not be of any importance.

With the exception of the JP-15 using the FMOS (Full Mass Operating System) JP Rifles themselves advertise their rifles as competition rifles.
This is an exerpt from the JP LMOS carrier page.
"While use of the LMOS™ (Low Mass Operating System) components is recommended only for competition and sporting use, this is only precautionary as their reliability is excellent, particularly on rifles with adjustable gas systems."

I shoot out of CRAFM who is the Canadian importer of JP Rifles and I've seen, handled and shot quite a few of them. They are very nice rifles and they shoot exceptionally well but they have very tight tolerances and when combined with the LMOS are not suitable for duty use or battle where they may not fully cycle. It is not a knock on the rifle, it is purpose built for competition and it does very well at it.
I have had this same discussion with the staff at CRAFM and their arguement is that it's like driving a Ferarri. I is very good at what it does. It was not designed to go get groceries or drive through a blizzard.

 

[r34skyline]

The fact that I am not willing to subject my $2500 rifle to a torture test is not really evidence that your colt is better. I'm generally opposed to intentionally abusing my guns....it happens naturally, but not really in an attempt to purposely break them

The specific reference you made was the JP cannot "hold a candle to a high end milspec rifle" or something along those lines. Which by your own admission is something you don't know. There is no way you can possibly attest to the durability of the rifle having not owned one and not tested it.

Like I said in my last post....it's simply interesting to me when someone expresses an opinion on a gun they haven't owned. But fill yer boots, I'm out.

Basic understanding of mechanical devices will do wonders. See when grimy stuff gets in between moving parts that have really tight tolerances it tends to add a lot more friction and either hamper or stop the function of said mechanical device.
Similarly as the chamber gets grimier a tighter chamber will start to have feeding issues.

And better is a blank statement, you gave no context. My colt is the better fighting rifle. On the flip end of the coin, your JP is the better match gun.

Also having understanding of metallurgy helps separate fact from fiction. Here is a simplified article explaining the differences. If you want me to go further in depth on each of the different barrel materials chosen along with the construction process itself we can also do that.
http://thearguys.com/ar-facts/differences-ar-15-barrel-metals/

the 416 stainless broached jp barrels will definitely shoot tighter groups, but the 4150 hard chrome lined cold hammer forged cc barrel will outlast it.

The tighter 223 wylde chambering will again assist with the tighter group, but the 5.56 chambering means I can run that gun in borderline ridiculous conditions and it will still have no issues chambering rounds.

You don't have to own something to understand facts and extrapolate the correct answer. Have a good night.

 

[TW25B]

The fact that I am not willing to subject my $2500 rifle to a torture test is not really evidence that your colt is better. I'm generally opposed to intentionally abusing my guns....it happens naturally, but not really in an attempt to purposely break them

The specific reference you made was the JP cannot "hold a candle to a high end milspec rifle" or something along those lines. Which by your own admission is something you don't know. There is no way you can possibly attest to the durability of the rifle having not owned one and not tested it.

Like I said in my last post....it's simply interesting to me when someone expresses an opinion on a gun they haven't owned. But fill yer boots, I'm out.

Your JP rifle has not been built to any known specification, like MIL SPEC. The CC in question here has been built to MIL SPEC, (in fact NATO spec) and sees use by multiple militaries around the world. The impressions by those who shoot bad people with these rifles is that they are of excellent quality and most definitely reliable and accurate. Not sure who uses JP rifles but my guess would be absolutely no one outside the competitive crowd. I don't imagine the JP guns are junk, but they are not rugged and reliable as the original design they are modelled after.

For the new AR owner a JP rifle would be an expensive mistake and here's why. The new AR owner has limited knowledge and likely just as limited experience with an AR. Learning about the AR on an expensive competition tuned gun will only frustrate the individual when the temper-mental rifle stops working due to poor lubrication, infrequent cleaning or poor ammo selection. Purchasing a quality MIL SPEC gun with the basic features will greatly alleviate these issues and provide a margin of error so to speak when it comes to learning the dos and don'ts of maintaining an AR. Any gain in performance from a tuned AR will likely be over shadowed by poor fundamentals anyway. Short of shooting from the bench(which you shouldn't be doing, it's a service rifle for f**k sakes!) any shooting done offhand or even semi supported will not require extreme precision nor will it be possible. Action shooting events like three gun are about speed not tight groups.

TW25B

 

[thump_rrr]

Your JP rifle has not been built to any known specification, like MIL SPEC. The CC in question here has been built to MIL SPEC, (in fact NATO spec) and sees use by multiple militaries around the world. The impressions by those who shoot bad people with these rifles is that they are of excellent quality and most definitely reliable and accurate. Not sure who uses JP rifles but my guess would be absolutely no one outside the competitive crowd. I don't imagine the JP guns are junk, but they are not rugged and reliable as the original design they are modelled after.

For the new AR owner a JP rifle would be an expensive mistake and here's why. The new AR owner has limited knowledge and likely just as limited experience with an AR. Learning about the AR on an expensive competition tuned gun will only frustrate the individual when the temper-mental rifle stops working due to poor lubrication, infrequent cleaning or poor ammo selection. Purchasing a quality MIL SPEC gun with the basic features will greatly alleviate these issues and provide a margin of error so to speak when it comes to learning the dos and don'ts of maintaining an AR. Any gain in performance from a tuned AR will likely be over shadowed by poor fundamentals anyway. Short of shooting from the bench(which you shouldn't be doing, it's a service rifle for f**k sakes!) any shooting done offhand or even semi supported will not require extreme precision nor will it be possible. Action shooting events like three gun are about speed not tight groups.

TW25B

To play devils advocate the JP rifle will have a great advantage for a 3 gunner over a MIL Spec rifle.
With the JP using its LMOS BCG, buffer system, adjustable gas block, and competition trigger in conjunction with ammo loaded to minimum power factor in the right hands will run circles around any MIL Spec rifle including my Noveske's due to near zero recoil and much faster follow up shots.
You cannot beat this type of gun at its own game.

 

[667]

All "Milspec" means to me is "crude, but effective".

That said... I've seen more Milspec AR's #### the bed at matches than JP's or similar brands.
Of course I imagine many of those failures could be attributed to operators who themselves aren't as Milspec as their rifles supposedly are.

A "high end" AR is not Milspec because Milspec isn't "high end"

 

[Still alive]

I had to mortar the rifle every 15 rounds or so, at least you are not at that point.

I know! I remember your thread! At least I think my problem is fixed. More lube!

 

[r34skyline]

To play devils advocate the JP rifle will have a great advantage for a 3 gunner over a MIL Spec rifle.
With the JP using its LMOS BCG, buffer system, adjustable gas block, and competition trigger in conjunction with ammo loaded to minimum power factor in the right hands will run circles around any MIL Spec rifle including my Noveske's due to near zero recoil and much faster follow up shots.
You cannot beat this type of gun at its own game.

I think what he meant is that the jp is not as beginner friendly as the give it to anyone milspec style. adjustable gas block, if messed with by somebody who doesn't know what they are doing, is going to have malfunctions. Same goes for the pet load ammo. To an experienced shooter yes these mean nothing they can dial the gun, optic, and ammo in just right and they got a well oiled race machine. But a somebody just getting into the game buying a premium rifle then messing up their setting and ammo would end up with them having a poor opinion on ars because of a poorly set up rifle because they didn't know any better.

 

[Familygunnutz]

nothing better for an AR beginner than build your own,
once you go thru the whole google research, which part is what, which brand of trigger is better and why, mil spec vs proprietary,
you would have some pretty good understanding on how AR works, and most importantly your will be developing your own preferences. i.e factory buffer vs hydraulic vs JP captured spring.
after you know a things or two about ARs, I'd suggest buy factory guns, why? lightly used factory guns are cheaper than DIY, and factory guns are easier to sell.

I now have few KAC sr15s with MAMS brake, mixed of Geissle, CMC, and factory KAC triggers , all with JP captured springs installed, they work for me the best, then again, a friend of mine who is a very good shooter, it's JP or nothing for him.
you see? only you know what really works for you in the end, don't be dead set on one brand, buy used and buy often, you won't lose much money when you sell, strip DIY guns and sell the parts.

 

[MPower]

nothing better for an AR beginner than build your own,
once you go thru the whole google research, which part is what, which brand of trigger is better and why, mil spec vs proprietary,
you would have some pretty good understanding on how AR works, and most importantly your will be developing your own preferences. i.e factory buffer vs hydraulic vs JP captured spring.
after you know a things or two about ARs, I'd suggest buy factory guns, why? lightly used factory guns are cheaper than DIY, and factory guns are easier to sell.

This ^^^
I couldn't agree more. This is how you educate yourself. Everybody's going to have a different opinion about what brand is better than the other brand. In the end, it's how you intend to use and at what distance is all that matters. Occasional plinking, 3 gun matches, bench shooting?

Buying a CC over a Colt USA will not make any difference if your are shooting standing at 100 meters or less (typical range distance limitations). You will not notice any difference in accuracy. But if your trying to shoot nice tight groups from a bipod or some form of rest then yes a CC barrel will serve you better than a Colt USA barrel. But those groups will largely depend on what YOU are capable of and type of ammo used and less on the brand of barrel used.

You do not need a $3000 AR to be accurate or reliable. Of course, it would be awesome, but not necessary.

 

[clg]

The correlation between post count and the term mil-spec is fascinating. It seems to be popular among less experienced members, potentially emulating people and scenarios they'll never personally experience.

 

[TW25B]

To play devils advocate the JP rifle will have a great advantage for a 3 gunner over a MIL Spec rifle.
With the JP using its LMOS BCG, buffer system, adjustable gas block, and competition trigger in conjunction with ammo loaded to minimum power factor in the right hands will run circles around any MIL Spec rifle including my Noveske's due to near zero recoil and much faster follow up shots.
You cannot beat this type of gun at its own game.

The advantage comes from the shooter using the rifle. If he/she sucks then it makes no difference what gun they use. I myself have no issues with a mil spec rifle serving a$$ to those with pet loads, adjustable gas blocks etc.

All "Milspec" means to me is "crude, but effective".

That said... I've seen more Milspec AR's #### the bed at matches than JP's or similar brands.
Of course I imagine many of those failures could be attributed to operators who themselves aren't as Milspec as their rifles supposedly are.

A "high end" AR is not Milspec because Milspec isn't "high end"

You clearly don't understand the needs of a mil spec rifle and its user if your opinion of it is "crude, but effective". Many a mil spec rifle has been used to compete and win and many more are used to defend this nation and many others. I'm still waiting to hear of any military of LE agency who uses a JP rifle.

As for high end, a KAC or HK or BCM, LMT, DD, CC, even a Noveske(not entirely mil spec) are all mil spec rifles. The attention to detail is much greater on these guns than low end hobby guns and far more reliable than custom race guns like a JP. Race guns are intended for racing, and IMO are about as practical and useful as a dragster. Both do well in their respective fields but neither is the least bit practical nor do they represent their origins.

A mil spec gun will take a lot of sh*t and abuse, your JP will not. For the new AR owner a mil spec gun is more forgiving.

TW25B

 

[667]

Tier One Tactical Milspec...

 

[pauls]

A mil spec gun will take a lot of sh*t and abuse, your JP will not. For the new AR owner a mil spec gun is more forgiving.

TW25B

Do you have evidence to support this statement?
I know a number of JP rifle owners that have put there guns through quite a bit of abuse, and never had a hiccup.
Much harsher conditions than the majority of AR owners on these forums will ever subject their guns to.
Quite high round counts as well.

Just because it isn't stamped "mil spec" doesn't mean it isn't as or, dare I say it...., more capable.