Higher End AR's Question

For my two cents - if it hasn't been said before - is that as you start moving up in price, you will often see better (or more exotic) materials of construction, improved levels of tuning and finishing - and snob appeal. If you are going to just be a gun club stubfart (like Yours Truly) - then you can probably expect to get by well with an average and maybe even a low end gun. There is nothing wrong or sub-standard about mil-spec guns, nor are they any guarantee of any real accuracy. If the average squaddie can hit a man in the chest at 200 yards under combat conditions - the military is happy. (That is a damned tough shot with iron sights, by the way).

Fancier guns scratch an itch that not all people have. I wanted a special AR and I think I shelled out over $2K for a Black Rain 7.5" stubbie. I know the cool kids will line up ten deep to tell me I got ripped off, that their Norc is just as good at half the price, yadda yadda, etc etc.

I don't care. Whatever.

When I am posing in the mirror in my underwear with that little poodle shooter - I think I just look a bit better and I feel a bit better knowing that the gun is not a bargain basement dumpster gun. When I am on the 50m range and that little bugger is dumping my reloads into groups just over an inch with a crappy vortex 3x optic - the heavens open up, the light shines down upon me and the gun gods bless me with life that's good. That is pretty good for a gun about the same size as a Daisy Red Ryder. I am older now, my kid has grown and left the nest and I have a few more bucks to play with...so I bought a high end AR. It doesn't make me a better shooter, and I don't look down my nose at guys shooting low end guns because I've had guys like that hand me my ass at the odd shooting match here and there. :)
The best AR is the one that gets you shooting and in the game!
 
clg said:
The correlation between post count and the term mil-spec is fascinating. It seems to be popular among less experienced members, potentially emulating people and scenarios they'll never personally experience.
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There is no correlation. Post count is irrelevant. Many people use the term "milspec". All it refers to is a set of standards set by an entity for any given manufacturer to adhere to. Saying a rifle is "milspec" doesn't mean your trying to emulate anyone or any scenario. Heck, I can say my AR's are milspec, but I hope I NEVER experience what military or law enforcement personel who use milspec rifles experience.
 
Expensive AR's = smaller shops = lower volume = higher overhead per unit cost.
Lower priced AR's = larger factory = high volume = lower overhead per unit cost.
 
clg said:
The correlation between post count and the term mil-spec is fascinating. It seems to be popular among less experienced members, potentially emulating people and scenarios they'll never personally experience.
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So then does that mean you find the term mil-spec fascinating?

pauls said:
Do you have evidence to support this statement?
I know a number of JP rifle owners that have put there guns through quite a bit of abuse, and never had a hiccup.
Much harsher conditions than the majority of AR owners on these forums will ever subject their guns to.
Quite high round counts as well.

Just because it isn't stamped "mil spec" doesn't mean it isn't as or, dare I say it...., more capable.
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Do you have any evidence to suggest it is as capable or more capable like you said?

Give examples of said hard use and round counts please.

I'll start the ball rolling.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/11/04/ballistic-radios-10k-round-test-knights-ar-15/
https://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t-magazine-filthy-14/
http://soldiersystems.net/2013/03/30/canipe-correspondence-retiring-my-416/

Would any of my rifles be beat that bad? Probably not. But like I said before, I stand by my statement, that a competition gun will not be as durable as a mil spec gun. Now it's time for you to stand by yours show me the jp gun that can take that punishment and carry on for tens of thousands of rounds of abusive use and still keep ticking.

Now some of that reliability translates into a forgiving rifle for beginners to learn their gun on. The flaw with parts bin specials if you don't know what you are doing, you will in all likelyhood build a rifle that doesn't run right, and sometimes even if you know what you are doing it will have issues, kind of like putting together an ebay turbo kit. And the end process unless you enjoy tinkering with it is that you will end up frustrated with a disfunctional rifle. Same goes for tight strung comp guns. Mess up the adjustment on the gas block, and mess about the ammo, and the end result metaphorically would be like someone that just got their drivers license and putting them in an f1 car. It's not gonna end well if they don't know what they are doing. Buying a proven functional rifle takes the guesswork and at the very least doesn't have a lot of things for the user to mess about, just put in ammo and away you go.
 
Ok guys heres my take from my own experiences not some blah blah bullshiat on the internet
I dropped 3600 on a CA it was utter complete crap not even deserving the time it would take to piss on it
Then I went and bought 4 colt ARs: 1 colt usa, 1 colt canada, 2 colt canada lowers with vltor uppers and noveske barrels, they all run like a boss

I used to buy ducati motorcycles too, because they sooo coooool, until I got fed up of facking boutique italian crap and actually peed on the muffler so it would smell like it behaves.

So there you have it. Finicky precious moody expensive stuff is not made for a guy like me.
 
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mikethebike said:
Ok guys heres my take from my own experiences not some blah blah bullshiat on the internet
I dropped 3600 on a CA it was utter complete crap not even deserving the time it would take to piss on it
Then I went and bought 4 colt ARs: 1 colt usa, 3 colt canada, they all run like a boss

So there you have it.
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CA should hire you for a spokesperson! You speak so highly of their products, just makes me blush!
I have a Colt USA A4. Ran better than my VLTOR too! Should have used it at my night shoot!
 
mikethebike said:
Ok guys heres my take from my own experiences not some blah blah bullshiat on the internet
I dropped 3600 on a CA it was utter complete crap not even deserving the time it would take to piss on it
Then I went and bought 4 colt ARs: 1 colt usa, 1 colt canada, 2 colt canada lowers with vltor uppers and noveske barrels, they all run like a boss

I used to buy ducati motorcycles too, because they sooo coooool, until I got fed up of facking boutique italian crap and actually peed on the muffler so it would smell like it behaves.

So there you have it. Finicky precious moody expensive stuff is not made for a guy like me.
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It may just be you Mike. I've run Ducatis at the track and on the road for years with no problems!
 
fdc said:
It may just be you Mike. I've run Ducatis at the track and on the road for years with no problems!
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I ran a 996, 998, 999 in Montreal for 9 years, then I gave up and moved to more reliable machines when I moved to Vancouver.
They were all horrible, the bikes spent more than half the summer in the shop at 80$ an hour.

I find if you're a mechanic, then running a ducati is fine

So just like with a custom boutique AR, if you're very qualified and you have all the tools and knowledge at home then running a boutique AR is fine.

I am neither a mechanic or a skilled armourer
 
Jerry Champagne said:
Do you not believe that theirs a direct correlation between materials used and performance of the rifle
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Direct correlation between quality of materials and accuracy? No necessarily. My Savage 22 was cheap and pretty damn accurate but... Generally better material will give you greater durability, the barrel will last longer etc. the gun will be more reliable over the long term etc. For example Russian military rifles ( Ignoring the accuracy issue which is typically not good) are designed to last 5000 to 10,000 rounds then throw them away, cheap low quality materials. High quality equipment should last a lot longer than this and you can replace parts and maintain the quality of the gun. Accuracy is really a different issue, high degrees of accuracy typically mean very precise manufacture and accurate fit of parts specifically with accuracy in mind. Read higher cost. However, super accurate firearms tend to be a lot more fussy about ammo, dust etc. than normal firearms. So all in all it depends on what you want. If you want super accuracy it will cost, if you want long life it will cost, short term accuracy can be got at a low cost but with more risk. So if you are going to shoot a gun a lot better quality is generally a good idea, if you want super accuracy it will cost but if you just want to have some fun there are a lot of cheaper guns that will perform well.
 
Out of my 5 AR's the KAC SR15E3 Mod 2 is the top but the Armalite AR-10T is just behind for accuracy, reliability and quality build, i rate the AR-10T before my DD MK18/ Bushmaster XDM-10/ DPMS HBAR AR-10... JP.
 
JP is onto something, my most dependable rifle has been my KAC SR15E3. I bought the rifle a few years ago and have over 3000 rounds through it without a single hiccup. The only changes I made were swapping the grip for a MIAD and the flash hider out for a PWS FSC556. I swapped the stock 2 stage out for a Geissele national match but found the difference so small I went back to the KAC trigger. I have used Magpul, LAR, ATRS, and the HiCal Beo mags without problem.

I tour around with a group of friends competing in in 3-gun and carbine matches so I get to watch a lot of the mid priced guns and how they run. Two DD's and a Colt have held up really well with the only hiccups being due to mags or hand loads. The Windham was so-so but got shelved because of accuracy. I shoot precision and local carbine matches with a friend who has an Armalite but it never gets run very hard. It has been accurate but I couldn't comment on reliability since it doesn't run hard like the rest. One of most interesting guns to watch was a POF.. not where I would put big money! Lots of random issues which could be user error but his Noveske shorty build has run great.
 
Megglodon, you should start your own thread if you are looking for advice. One thread, one topic so to speak. You are now hijacking someone else's thread which is not polite.
 
Sorry, did not mean to hijack this thread or any at all. Was thinking this thread discussed rifles in the $1000 - $2000. Which basically my questions revolved around.
Will just try to edit / erase my initial post, if that can make everybody here happy.
 
r34skyline said:
So then does that mean you find the term mil-spec fascinating?
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Yes it does, it's a marketing tactic which it seems many people bite hook, line and sinker.

Do you have any evidence to suggest it is as capable or more capable like you said?

Give examples of said hard use and round counts please.

I'll start the ball rolling.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/11/04/ballistic-radios-10k-round-test-knights-ar-15/
https://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t-magazine-filthy-14/
http://soldiersystems.net/2013/03/30/canipe-correspondence-retiring-my-416/

Would any of my rifles be beat that bad? Probably not. But like I said before, I stand by my statement, that a competition gun will not be as durable as a mil spec gun. Now it's time for you to stand by yours show me the jp gun that can take that punishment and carry on for tens of thousands of rounds of abusive use and still keep ticking.

Now some of that reliability translates into a forgiving rifle for beginners to learn their gun on. The flaw with parts bin specials if you don't know what you are doing, you will in all likelyhood build a rifle that doesn't run right, and sometimes even if you know what you are doing it will have issues, kind of like putting together an ebay turbo kit. And the end process unless you enjoy tinkering with it is that you will end up frustrated with a disfunctional rifle. Same goes for tight strung comp guns. Mess up the adjustment on the gas block, and mess about the ammo, and the end result metaphorically would be like someone that just got their drivers license and putting them in an f1 car. It's not gonna end well if they don't know what they are doing. Buying a proven functional rifle takes the guesswork and at the very least doesn't have a lot of things for the user to mess about, just put in ammo and away you go.
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You are aware that the SR15 is not a mil-spec gun, it simply uses a mil-spec barrel? The BCG and gas system are proprietary and not interchangeable with other systems. They're reliable because they've modified the shortcomings of the standard AR platform, not because they allow tolerances which accommodate real world scenarios. Same goes for the HK416/MR556, they're proprietary designs which are not interchangeable in a traditional "mil-spec" ar15, which is the topic at hand.
 
clg said:
Yes it does, it's a marketing tactic which it seems many people bite hook, line and sinker.



You are aware that the SR15 is not a mil-spec gun, it simply uses a mil-spec barrel? The BCG and gas system are proprietary and not interchangeable with other systems. They're reliable because they've modified the shortcomings of the standard AR platform, not because they allow tolerances which accommodate real world scenarios. Same goes for the HK416/MR556, they're proprietary designs which are not interchangeable in a traditional "mil-spec" ar15, which is the topic at hand.
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No actually the classic mil spec as has been stated is a set requirements on finish, materials and tolerance in a TDP that's currently colts property. It's available for you to read if choose to. You may choose to blindly label it as a marketing tactic but believe me, it exists.



Quite correct. That being said, the bcm is the traditional mil spec ar platform and I would like to see a competition gun go through that punishment, and multiple militaries le agencies and sof units run the knights guns and the hk 416 is definitely the sweetheart of the top shelf sof community atm, so while they are not the classic mil spec of the original stoner design, they most certainly meet the performance standards set by the military. So in that sense yes they are mil spec guns as well(the 416 was initially designed under request for ussocom).

Oh and as a rough jist of what a classic mil spec gun can do. Ya total marketing gimmick.
http://www.nytimes.com/video/world/asia/1247466496261/m-4a1-firing-test.html
 
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pauls said:
Do you have evidence to support this statement?
I know a number of JP rifle owners that have put there guns through quite a bit of abuse, and never had a hiccup.
Much harsher conditions than the majority of AR owners on these forums will ever subject their guns to.
Quite high round counts as well.

Just because it isn't stamped "mil spec" doesn't mean it isn't as or, dare I say it...., more capable.
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You're right, not all quality guns are mil spec, but then again that list is awfully short and includes Noveske, KAC, HK and Larue, all of which incorporate mil spec parts and/or mil spec requirements and tolerances. If you want a rifle that is as close to the real deal, that is one that will take an a$$ kicking and keep running then you buy mil spec, or a near mil spec gun like the brands above. As for evidence to support my statement, I ask just what military or LE agency issues JP rifles? Who outside of competitors uses one? I think R34Skyline has a few links about quality mil spec guns being absolutely abused and still working. I haven't seen such evidence for any of the boutique race guns doing the same.

I've already mentioned this and others have as well. If you want a race gun then JP makes a good rifle. If you want a reliable rifle that won't require tedious setup and maintenance regimens, then a mil spec gun is the ticket. For the new to AR guy a highly tuned and tuneable rifle like a JP is a poor choice. The price is very high and the rifle needs to be setup properly. For those who choose a race gun I'm willing to bet a good majority of them have a good understanding of the rifle and of what they want out of it. The new to AR guy doesn't have the same experience or knowledge.

TW25B
 
Who outside of competitors uses one?
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These guys.
Their rifles apparently have over 40k rounds through them. Seem to be doing well for a highly tuned race gun...
[youtube]aZrFIcWzSEo[/youtube]

As for LE/military, who cares? Seriously.
Just because some bureaucrat got his palms greased and a manufacturer's gear got adopted for use, does it make it the be all end all of platforms?
Seeing as this is a civilian forum, realizing which rifles are reliable for the tactical paper punching we do, is relevant.
That range of rifles is much broader than just 100% milspec.
If people want to buy what the seal team whatever is using and run around in their basement making pew pew noises, all the power to them. At that point you are buying gear for a totally different reason.

think R34Skyline has a few links about quality mil spec guns being absolutely abused and still working. I haven't seen such evidence for any of the boutique race guns doing the same.
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And you likely never will because that's a waste of a perfectly good gun and ammo.

My first hand experience is this:
my JP rifle is approaching 10K rounds.
I have had absolutely zero gun induced failures.
I have also not replaced a single part on my rifle other than an extractor spring, and probably didn't even need to do that. Did it because I happened to have a spare and figured after 6k rounds it might need it.
Gas rings are still tight and hardly any wear anywhere other than the slight rubbing of the anodizing in the upper receiver from the BCG.
The coatings they use significantly reduce wear.

The type of "tests" in the links above don't mean much in our world.
Most people reading these forums won't see 5K through their rifle let alone 30k, and will definitely be cleaned more frequently.

If you want a race gun then JP makes a good rifle. If you want a reliable rifle that won't require tedious setup and maintenance regimens, then a mil spec gun is the ticket. For the new to AR guy a highly tuned and tuneable rifle like a JP is a poor choice. The price is very high and the rifle needs to be setup properly
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I have to strongly disagree here.
While the price may be high relative to an entry level platform, as with most things in life, you get what you pay for.
Difficult to set up and maintain?
Here's what I did:
Close off gas block and then open it half turn at a time until the bolt would lock back on an empty mag.
Open half turn more to ensure reliability with different types of ammo and lock it in place.
5 minutes, Done.
Maintenance, I occasionally wipe down the inside of the receivers with a paper towel, and re lube.
scrape off carbon buildup from the back of the bolt and clean out the lugs on the barrel extension.
Once a year I run a bore snake through the barrel just for fun.
The rifle is still super accurate and shoots soft.
Perfect for punching holes in paper which is all we can do with them here in Canada.

If a newbie can't manage to do at least that, then I have to ask who dresses them in the morning because I doubt they could properly do that either.

Long term reliability, as I mentioned, my rifle has a decent number of rounds though it, been full of dirt and sand and still run perfectly.
My friends in the US who compete more frequently than I do have 2-3 times the round count I do and their rifles are still running strong with no issues.

At the end of the day, people will buy what they deem best for them based on intended use and budget.
As long as they are buying a rifle and getting out to shoot, its all good on my books.
We need as many people with ARs as possible.

Blindly preaching the gospel of milspec and saying anything other is somehow inferior, that's just nonsense.
 
pauls said:
These guys.
Their rifles apparently have over 40k rounds through them. Seem to be doing well for a highly tuned race gun...

As for LE/military, who cares? Seriously.
Just because some bureaucrat got his palms greased and a manufacturer's gear got adopted for use, does it make it the be all end all of platforms?
Seeing as this is a civilian forum, realizing which rifles are reliable for the tactical paper punching we do, is relevant.
That range of rifles is much broader than just 100% milspec.
If people want to buy what the seal team whatever is using and run around in their basement making pew pew noises, all the power to them. At that point you are buying gear for a totally different reason.


And you likely never will because that's a waste of a perfectly good gun and ammo.

My first hand experience is this:
my JP rifle is approaching 10K rounds.
I have had absolutely zero gun induced failures.
I have also not replaced a single part on my rifle other than an extractor spring, and probably didn't even need to do that. Did it because I happened to have a spare and figured after 6k rounds it might need it.
Gas rings are still tight and hardly any wear anywhere other than the slight rubbing of the anodizing in the upper receiver from the BCG.
The coatings they use significantly reduce wear.

The type of "tests" in the links above don't mean much in our world.
Most people reading these forums won't see 5K through their rifle let alone 30k, and will definitely be cleaned more frequently.



I have to strongly disagree here.
While the price may be high relative to an entry level platform, as with most things in life, you get what you pay for.
Difficult to set up and maintain?
Here's what I did:
Close off gas block and then open it half turn at a time until the bolt would lock back on an empty mag.
Open half turn more to ensure reliability with different types of ammo and lock it in place.
5 minutes, Done.
Maintenance, I occasionally wipe down the inside of the receivers with a paper towel, and re lube.
scrape off carbon buildup from the back of the bolt and clean out the lugs on the barrel extension.
Once a year I run a bore snake through the barrel just for fun.
The rifle is still super accurate and shoots soft.
Perfect for punching holes in paper which is all we can do with them here in Canada.

If a newbie can't manage to do at least that, then I have to ask who dresses them in the morning because I doubt they could properly do that either.

Long term reliability, as I mentioned, my rifle has a decent number of rounds though it, been full of dirt and sand and still run perfectly.
My friends in the US who compete more frequently than I do have 2-3 times the round count I do and their rifles are still running strong with no issues.

At the end of the day, people will buy what they deem best for them based on intended use and budget.
As long as they are buying a rifle and getting out to shoot, its all good on my books.
We need as many people with ARs as possible.

Blindly preaching the gospel of milspec and saying anything other is somehow inferior, that's just nonsense.
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Nicely worded pauls :)

The biggest benefit to buying a milspec rifle in my opinion is the parts compatibility. I like that I can buy from numerous manufacturers and know that the parts will fit.
I would however love to own a JP rifle, I've handled a couple and they are really nice. I almost hope I never get a chance to shoot one because I'm sure it will push me over the edge and I'll have to buy one.

The solution to the the argument is for people to simply buy more than one AR and have a milspec gun for messing around and good old gong bashing fun and to also own a high end boutique rifle and get into competitive shooting.
I've never understood why so many on this site act like you can only have one rifle and that everyone else should buy the rifle they feel is the best for all situations. I say just buy another.
A first time AR owner may not feel the need or want to spend the coin on a high end rifle and that's understandable but nothing says they can't start with a $1000 rifle then buy another one in a few months or a year once they realize what a great platform it is and how fun it is to shoot.
Everyone that owns an AR knows that you never just buy one and stop there.
 
Milspec as a feature should be important to an AR owner for two reasons:

The first is that a milspec gun will take milspec parts from other manufacturers with a minimum to no fuss in having the gun work properly after integrating the new parts. If you want to tweak and upgrade this is important.

And B as they say is that if your intended use mirrors that of the military - highly varied and less than ideal conditions, operation is critical regardless of said conditions then milspec is for you.

I can say that my "race" AR has proven flawless and has required no more love or attention than my "milspec" AR. This should come as no surprise because I use my guns in very controlled and ideal circumstances - often indoors or fair weather, comfortable temperatures, and no dragging myself and my gun through mud pits.

Way too much is made of this debate. Is my "race" AR a better gun than my "milspec" AR? It sure is if fast follow up shots and tunable ergonomics are concerned. Is it more accurate? Not for how I shoot it and am scored.
 
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