Higher end NR rifles, Robinson Arms XCR ($2500) vs Tavor 21 ($2750), which is better
- Thread starter Springfieldfan
- Start date
That's your best reply???
Lets get back to the subject. Were the XCR a much better platform than the Tavor, it would be in much more demand, its really that simple. Your opinion about the XCR being better is just fine, but its supported only by personal taste.
Side by side in the Jungle, there is no contest between the two, Tavor wins hands down, its easier to handle, doesn't get caught on all the vines is easier to carry and shoulder, allowing for faster target acquisition, something that is kind of important, because of its design it gives the shooter a smaller profile than the xcr so the shooter himself becomes a smaller target. Because of how the action bcg and chamber is designed it allows for a much broader range of ammo to be used without a functional failure....try reloading out of spec ammo in an xcr and see what happens. LIke it or not, out of spec slips through the cracks and last thing you want during use is a FTF or FTE. split seconds count. The Tavor is just so good in so many ways. That's the jungle,
In a sandy environment it stays significantly cleaner than most others, you know where that is going. so yes it functions longer between cleaning in a sandy environment.
Lube, the Tavor in extreme conditions requires less lube to still function and function properly. This is a huge advantage when in battle in extreme environments. XCR cannot come close to the Tavor in this regard....not many can.
Rifles are consumable goods, they have a short life span, are to be used for a specific purpose and when done, replaces. The Tavor has a certain life span, and during that lifespan, there are very few rifles that can match the functional performance.
Hey, it may not be for everyone, but to say the XCR is better is just no factually correct. It might do some things better, but in a war given the choice the last thing you want to do is pick the wrong rifle, which is exactly why the XCR is not picked. Id rather an sks than an xcr, because I know it will go bang more consistently than the xcr in harsch conditions.
For the range????? an XCR is a delight.
WeatherdoG
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Trenton, ON
It's funny how that whole post could have been summed up by the last line.
Very few on here are going to be taking their personal weapon into battle ever, so why does it matter which one will perform in the desert or the jungle? On top of that no weapon survives in a harsh environment without regular maintenance, and that regular maintenance is part of what separates the professionals from the rest. Like what was said earlier, I love how people freak out about the term weapon and then come on here and throw around "battle proven".
I own an XCR-L which is shorter than the battle proven C7A2, doesn't feel any heavier than the C7A2, and I've had less stoppages with my XCR than my C7A2. I've never handled the Tavor though I'm sure it is a capable rifle. I just wanted to add some realistic perspective to the debate here, rather than continue down the Red Dawn fantasy rabbit hole.
These are non-restricted rifles, they can go anywhere you want to take them - thus not just range toys. Take one out after coyotes, hike in the bush with one, pan for gold with one - any one of those can test the reliability of a rifle to almost the same environmental levels as military use. As a range toy, I agree, it doesn't matter much, but as a truck gun, or bush gun, it does matter. These are real world rifles, and personally, I'd trust the one that's passed military selection over the one that hasn't. I used to carry an AK as a hiking gun (legal at the time) - believe me, if the conditions are tough enough to cause issues with an AK, they can cause issues with anything, hence a proven system gets the nod.
^^^ Exactly, well said!
Ok, my $0.02
The first thing I think when ppl say "so and so weapon is better because an army uses it" is idiot.
Ppl don't understand or can't or better yet refuse to accept army choose weapons for a) political reasons (we built it, it's better) b) economic reasons ( it's the best, look we use it you should too and buy it from us and help our economy) and c) economic reasons (ah this rifle is the best in the world, but...... the pricetag..... is 4000 a unit, this rifle is Ok, and 400 a unit. Hmmmmmm which to buy?) so keep in mind all military rifles are Ok rifles made by the lowest bidder. Otherwise we'd all be using some version of the G11.
Besides, Israel uses more m4's anyway.
Xcr was developed by RA for the so com trials and lost because, get this, not for being reliable enough, because they couldn't make enough BFA and FN is bigger and more influential then RA.
So, to compare the 2:
Tavor:
Pros:
Reliable (it'll eat anything)
Compact (yep, it was designed for urban operations)
Well balanced (yep, kind of a convient to do stuff)
Light (yep, for the weaker of you ppl)
Ambidextrous (BUT... can't shift to weak hand shooting without eat brass.....)
Cons:
Plastic ( all the metal inserts in the world won't stop cold weather from shattering plastic with hard military use, like say -35 and smashing your weapon into a Window frame on insertion)
Optics (can be a ##### to mount without a spacer and with that the bore to sight line is like 4-5 inches)
Ergonomic (yes comfortable, but... limited in what you can do with it without expensive aftermarket accessories ie rails for paq, flashlight, sight, back up sights and that #### that negates the light weight pro)
Controls ( in urban ops life and death are measured in seconds, so taking your hand off the forward grip moving back hitting the mag release the n a mag for an emergency reload, is well too long, where's you can hit a button and grab a mag for quicker mag changes with convention designs. However the design does lean a little towards being designed for gross motor skills a bit makes it easier to train a conscript army with radical new design ie fodder, unless your of the ppl who release the pistol grip and sacrifice positive weapons retention for a fine motor skill of changing mags... dummy... what if you trip over battlefield debris? a divit? A piece of grass? Your own 2 feet? Your giant gut even though your in recondo and listening to CSM (name witheld) and part of a leet unite? Your hand never comes off your pistol grip)
Accuracy ( even though it'll eat bullets no problem it suffer from a minor thing called accuracy the norm is 2-4 inches of accuracy with any given ammo, 2 inches at 100m is 4 at 2 and 6 at 3 center mass, means your barely in the target area with perfect condition, now add a muscular, extremely fit, expert shot, such as u r self and trained by an elite force such as the ISA led by colt silver, and your a force to be reckoned with. Point being, one slow hit is better then 2 fast misses)
Xcr
Pros:
Conventional (require minimal training to adapt)
Reliable (eat'll eat most reliably and has adjustable gas to further enhance)
Accurate (the norm is 1-2 inches)
Modular (you can add whatever #### you want to it to make yourself look like whatever chair borne commando you want)
Design (conventional as stated above but a mixture of common battle designed kind of what you'd get if an ar mated with an Ak and something popped that looked like a fal. Meaning it familiar to take apart and clean and maintain with minimal training and tools, not that the tavor is hard to learn)
Caliber conversions (3 screws and a bolt and barrel, need I say more?)
Cons:
Heavy (hit the gym more, you need it)
Some QC issues ( like most car brands to, and constantly evolving because Alex reads these forums... and takes that into consideration as he evolves the design to be better, which I don't mind and prefer if it gonna make a better weapon that someone may have to rely on in the future and if my feedback helps save that person life.....)
Custom service ( Ok, but I agree with Alex, you want service, tell us what the problem is and we'll fix it ASAP, after the 40 ppl in front of you, you scream and rant about how awful the weapon is and how big a piece of #### it is and that my customer service is a giant $#?@, well sir, well get to you when we can, have a nice day.) I agree, who cares who you are 1000 years from now, no one well and your existence won't matter.
Lock tite? (last I checked, to put lock tite on means would have had to take apart and inspect the internals, this is called maintenance I think? Is this not done on your car? House? No gun operates indefinitely not even the god like Ak, eventually it breaks too. I've never used locktite )
But to use "no army uses it" shows a) your level of understanding about the world and b) your level of maturity
And no weapon is perfect, including the ar, it all personal preference when you have a choice.
PS. I'm on my phone hence the #### layout and grammer.
The first thing I think when ppl say "so and so weapon is better because an army uses it" is idiot.
Ppl don't understand or can't or better yet refuse to accept army choose weapons for a) political reasons (we built it, it's better) b) economic reasons ( it's the best, look we use it you should too and buy it from us and help our economy) and c) economic reasons (ah this rifle is the best in the world, but...... the pricetag..... is 4000 a unit, this rifle is Ok, and 400 a unit. Hmmmmmm which to buy?) so keep in mind all military rifles are Ok rifles made by the lowest bidder. Otherwise we'd all be using some version of the G11.
Besides, Israel uses more m4's anyway.
Xcr was developed by RA for the so com trials and lost because, get this, not for being reliable enough, because they couldn't make enough BFA and FN is bigger and more influential then RA.
So, to compare the 2:
Tavor:
Pros:
Reliable (it'll eat anything)
Compact (yep, it was designed for urban operations)
Well balanced (yep, kind of a convient to do stuff)
Light (yep, for the weaker of you ppl)
Ambidextrous (BUT... can't shift to weak hand shooting without eat brass.....)
Cons:
Plastic ( all the metal inserts in the world won't stop cold weather from shattering plastic with hard military use, like say -35 and smashing your weapon into a Window frame on insertion)
Optics (can be a ##### to mount without a spacer and with that the bore to sight line is like 4-5 inches)
Ergonomic (yes comfortable, but... limited in what you can do with it without expensive aftermarket accessories ie rails for paq, flashlight, sight, back up sights and that #### that negates the light weight pro)
Controls ( in urban ops life and death are measured in seconds, so taking your hand off the forward grip moving back hitting the mag release the n a mag for an emergency reload, is well too long, where's you can hit a button and grab a mag for quicker mag changes with convention designs. However the design does lean a little towards being designed for gross motor skills a bit makes it easier to train a conscript army with radical new design ie fodder, unless your of the ppl who release the pistol grip and sacrifice positive weapons retention for a fine motor skill of changing mags... dummy... what if you trip over battlefield debris? a divit? A piece of grass? Your own 2 feet? Your giant gut even though your in recondo and listening to CSM (name witheld) and part of a leet unite? Your hand never comes off your pistol grip)
Accuracy ( even though it'll eat bullets no problem it suffer from a minor thing called accuracy the norm is 2-4 inches of accuracy with any given ammo, 2 inches at 100m is 4 at 2 and 6 at 3 center mass, means your barely in the target area with perfect condition, now add a muscular, extremely fit, expert shot, such as u r self and trained by an elite force such as the ISA led by colt silver, and your a force to be reckoned with. Point being, one slow hit is better then 2 fast misses)
Xcr
Pros:
Conventional (require minimal training to adapt)
Reliable (eat'll eat most reliably and has adjustable gas to further enhance)
Accurate (the norm is 1-2 inches)
Modular (you can add whatever #### you want to it to make yourself look like whatever chair borne commando you want)
Design (conventional as stated above but a mixture of common battle designed kind of what you'd get if an ar mated with an Ak and something popped that looked like a fal. Meaning it familiar to take apart and clean and maintain with minimal training and tools, not that the tavor is hard to learn)
Caliber conversions (3 screws and a bolt and barrel, need I say more?)
Cons:
Heavy (hit the gym more, you need it)
Some QC issues ( like most car brands to, and constantly evolving because Alex reads these forums... and takes that into consideration as he evolves the design to be better, which I don't mind and prefer if it gonna make a better weapon that someone may have to rely on in the future and if my feedback helps save that person life.....)
Custom service ( Ok, but I agree with Alex, you want service, tell us what the problem is and we'll fix it ASAP, after the 40 ppl in front of you, you scream and rant about how awful the weapon is and how big a piece of #### it is and that my customer service is a giant $#?@, well sir, well get to you when we can, have a nice day.) I agree, who cares who you are 1000 years from now, no one well and your existence won't matter.
Lock tite? (last I checked, to put lock tite on means would have had to take apart and inspect the internals, this is called maintenance I think? Is this not done on your car? House? No gun operates indefinitely not even the god like Ak, eventually it breaks too. I've never used locktite )
But to use "no army uses it" shows a) your level of understanding about the world and b) your level of maturity
And no weapon is perfect, including the ar, it all personal preference when you have a choice.
PS. I'm on my phone hence the #### layout and grammer.
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The only source for the "BFA story" is the manufacturer who 'forgot' to send it - that is not the reason I've heard elsewhere. Failed meant failed, as in did not pass due to poor performance.
Gee, member since 2005 and you've made a whopping 85 posts. You must be the strong silent type, or is there another possible reason for a long term account with a low post count like that? In fact a search shows no posts in the last 3 years? As far as being naive with regard to selling stuff to military organizations goes, I spent several years working for a company that provided every branch of the US mil and the Can Forces as well as the Armies, Navies and Air Forces of Sweden, Germany, Denmark, Italy and the UK with vital components. Stuff like propulsion batteries for submarines, storage systems for radar installations, nuclear power load leveling systems, I do know a little about that stuff. Maybe your post shows nothing about anyone's maturity or experience and a whole lot about who signs your paycheck. Just saying.
PS do they still allow you 3 free here?
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Although I appreciate this is a heated discussion and that people may have strong opinions, one way or another. I find the posts that attack the character of other members, rather than their talking points, to be rather derogatory... and frankly, don't really add much to the discussion.
Why not just ignore any irrelevant and/or belligerent posts, we can all read, we don't need you to fan flames.. and just keep to discussing the topic at hand with relevant points or rebuttals?
Why not just ignore any irrelevant and/or belligerent posts, we can all read, we don't need you to fan flames.. and just keep to discussing the topic at hand with relevant points or rebuttals?
- Location
- Edmonton, Alberta
Okay now, let me perhaps explain something that common sense should likely have told you. If the OP was looking for a recommendation about which gun is better, and the pros and cons about each one, it's logical to assume you should know something about guns before wading in and giving your opinion.
... some people's children...
Any firearm that requires me to apply judicious amounts of red loctite to it in order to prevent it from disassembling itself is not a firearm I have any interest in owning. It is laughable for anyone to even attempt to argue that such a firearm could ever be considered a legitimate military small arm. Add to that the fact that the owner of Rob Arms is a massive douche, and he essentially screwed over M-96 owners, prior to the launch of the XCR, and there is no way I'd ever consider spending $2500+ for a rifle that, charitably, shouldn't retail for anymore than $800-$900.
You're right of course - and I may well find my name in pink for that comment - so be it. It just felt a little too schilly for my liking. I should remind myself that it's RobArms, not the old Leitner-Weiss outfit - come to think of it, maybe that's why? Leitner-Weiss, for those wondering, was Alex Robinson before Alex was -same attitude, same approach, same wierd. His company is flying since they turfed him.
Things here are very strange these days - Breitling604 was actually arguing with an IDF member about the use and issue of the Tar21 and he/she has never shot the rifle???? Amazing stuff.
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Meh, whatever floats your boat. And I don't care, I shoot, a lot, more then most fantasize about.
I still don't understand what credibility a post count holds is? Wouldn't my trader rating hold more credence? The fact that you attacked me for, not my post content, but for post count tells me more about you then I care to know. I don't care how awesome you are, you mean nothing to me but wasted bandwidth.
The Socom report was: rob arms xcr modular weapons platform, disqualified, not meeting minimum requirements
I know more of this subject then a) I care too and b) people realize
Tavor vs XCR: it's personal preference, it truly is. Like all firearms.
I still don't understand what credibility a post count holds is? Wouldn't my trader rating hold more credence? The fact that you attacked me for, not my post content, but for post count tells me more about you then I care to know. I don't care how awesome you are, you mean nothing to me but wasted bandwidth.
The Socom report was: rob arms xcr modular weapons platform, disqualified, not meeting minimum requirements
I know more of this subject then a) I care too and b) people realize
Tavor vs XCR: it's personal preference, it truly is. Like all firearms.
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I have a tavor. Mine is reliable. Accuracy is acceptable but not spectacular. 2-4 MOA depending on Ammunition. Ergonomics are acceptable, but not spectacular as well. I would prefer an AR to a Tavor for service rifle competition and 3 gun however the Tavor is non restricted and the AR is restricted. XCR I know very little about. Most of the folks that I know that bought one ended up selling it to buy a trick AR for 3 gun.
I have my first 3 gun match next month which I will bring the TAVOR for and if it sucks for 3 gun I will probably end up buying a trick AR as well.
I have my first 3 gun match next month which I will bring the TAVOR for and if it sucks for 3 gun I will probably end up buying a trick AR as well.
Neither the Tavor or XCR represent the best value here in the Canadian market in my opinion. The Tavor is an AR-18 Stoner action wrapped around an ugly plastic bullpup shell that took Israel over 20 years to perfect, the other is an abortive attempt at a service rifle...
The answer of course is an AR-15 with a good barrel, a Swiss Arms, and I'm convinced the SG 540/542s are going to be winners.
The answer of course is an AR-15 with a good barrel, a Swiss Arms, and I'm convinced the SG 540/542s are going to be winners.
"...which is better..." High prices don't mean high end. I'd lean towards the Tavor just because some civil servant might decide it's evil and you'll have one. Assuming grandfathering is mentioned.
"...battle proven bullpup platform..." Battle proven by who?
"...battle proven bullpup platform..." Battle proven by who?
- Location
- Canada, west
Mine was a general comment observing this trend. If you choose to assume it was directed at you, zero...being the amount of effs I give
+1 for the 858
Very good friend of mine chose an 858 over an M4 platform for his stints overseas. Mods/additions consisted of only chopping it and adding an Eotech, he loved and swore by it.
I've had 2 VZ58s fail, not wear out, but fail, full stop. Not saying the XCR is any better but VZs are not bullet proof. Edit..mind you these where a cz858 and CSA vz58. Not full auto military guns.
Curious? Do PMCs buy their own guns?? Or given a choice by the company?
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The way I've heard it, (and it depends on where you are and who you work for) they give you something, and if it works, great. If it doesn't you get to scrounge something up. Since they're big on AK's (cheap) it'll normally work, but it probably won't be pretty. If you can't scrounge, you're in the wrong place, doing the wrong job.
I've put about 1200 rounds through my cz858, cleaned it thoroughly only once after 1000 rounds, usually just a rough quick open wipe down after each 300 rounds. Never failed me in 1200 bangs. Maybe I have one of those magical c858 with a guardian angel on it, but I seriously doubt it.
Trust me when it'll fail you guys will know, I'm a big baby and I always ##### when my guns don't run properly.
Trust me when it'll fail you guys will know, I'm a big baby and I always ##### when my guns don't run properly.
