Is a full house 10mm more powerful than a .357 magnum?

[Gatehouse]

Nope, you've got me in the wrong column.

I shoudl be in the "With cartridges of such similar performance, it matters alot more where you put the bullet, and how it performs, than how you get the bullet there" column.

There are many similarities between the 2 cartridges, the most important being that if a bear was moving in on you..........you woudl wish you had a rifle in your hands rather than either pistol.

 

[350 Mag]

This has been a spirited thread and I hope that everyone involved will "kiss and make up" afterwards.

After reading about the 10mm's capabilities I don't see a HUGE advantage in going to it over the 4" .357 magnum that I already own. I legally carry my .357 magnum in the winter month's when the big furries are supposed to be hibernating. It's lighter, shorter and much easier to carry than a handcannon.

Spring, summer and fall I'll continue to carry my .454 Casull. It outpowers all of the 10mm/.357 magnum/.45 ACP's.

I didn't realize how powerfull the old .45 ACP could be loaded without going to something like a 45-08.

Excellent choice on the .357 Mag.


Sorry your thread got totally high-jacked....(me partly to blame )

Debating one's favourite caliber vs. another's can get a little out-of-hand and no winner is usually crowned.

As stated before shot placement is the key.

DoubleTap's 45 ACP is quite impressive but then again so is all his loadings...too bad we can't get it up here.

 

[justin1628]

This may not be the right place to ask this, but when buying factory ammo, is 10mm more money than 45 acp?

 

[Gatehouse]

I didn't realize how powerfull the old .45 ACP could be loaded without going to something like a 45-08.

The 45 ACP in a modern gun wiht good brass can be loaded pretty hot. Converting to 45-08 is a simple matter of a spring and abuffer pad. As well as some brass that is a little pricey!

 

[350 Mag]

Nope, you've got me in the wrong column.

I shoudl be in the "With cartridges of such similar performance, it matters alot more where you put the bullet, and how it performs, than how you get the bullet there" column.

There are many similarities between the 2 cartridges, the most important being that if a bear was moving in on you..........you woudl wish you had a rifle in your hands rather than either pistol.

Why do I feel like one of those poor souls in hell with a little devil poking me with a pitch-fork?

 

[Gatehouse]

Why do I feel like one of those poor souls in hell with a little devil poking me with a pitch-fork?

Because you are a Zealot...And seem to refuse to understand that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

When I first started hunting, I had a relaly nice 270. But then I looked at ballistic tables and read gun rags and determined the 7 mm Remingotn Magnum was the one!!

Deer didn't notice. Bear didnt' notice.

A few years later, and I read some more magazines, look at more ballistics charts, and buy a 300 Win

Deer didn't notice, bear didn't notice

Eventially got a 375 H&H, and THAT is when the bear started to notice. But a 375 H&H is a BIG jump from a 270.

 

[350 Mag]

This may not be the right place to ask this, but when buying factory ammo, is 10mm more money than 45 acp?

This thread has allready been high-jacked to hell and back by me and several others....don't feel bad.

10mm is not very popular therefore it is not as available in good quanity and is usually 4-5 bucks more per 50 than 45ACP.

Don't get a 10mm unless you plan on reloading...and if you do alot of shooting then you need a progressive reloading system otherwise you will spend 80% of the time reloading and 20% of the time shooting.


If you want the cheapest available then go .22 rimfire.

9mm is about the cheapest centerfire available and usually lots of it around if you do not want to reload.

 

[justin1628]

This thread has allready been high-jacked to hell and back by me and several others....don't feel bad.

10mm is not very popular therefore it is not as available in good quanity and is usually 4-5 bucks more per 50 than 45ACP.

Don't get a 10mm unless you plan on reloading...and if you do alot of shooting then you need a progressive reloading system otherwise you will spend 80% of the time reloading and 20% of the time shooting.


If you want the cheapest available then go .22 rimfire.

9mm is about the cheapest centerfire available and usually lots of it around if you do not want to reload.

Thanks! I don't really reload, I'm shooting alot of factory 9mm, but this thread has got me wanting a 10mm or a 45 acp.

 

[Calum]

9mm is about the cheapest centerfire available and usually lots of it around if you do not want to reload.

For the record I believe milsurp 7.62x25 Tokarev is the cheapest.
Besides .22 rimfire at approx 10 cents a round.

 

[350 Mag]

For the record I believe milsurp 7.62x25 Tokarev is the cheapest.
Besides .22 rimfire at approx 10 cents a round.

NOT BITING on this debate you win...

 

[Calum]

Well I thought I would give you an easy out since you overlooked the wound channel factor I brought up.

 

[350 Mag]

One last gasp attempt to see if logic has a chance here...

I have loaded 135gr Nosler HP's to 1850fps with IMR800X powder using Mike McNett's of Double Tap Ammo fame reload data in a 6 inch Barsto barrel.

This same load does 1750fps in my 5" KKM barreled G20...

I get 1280fps for 200gr XTP's and I just purchased 400 Beartooth 200gr FNGC's hard cast bullets that I should be able to load safely to 1320fps.

I've never looked up the velocities for a 357 mag with 135gr or the heavier 180gr bullets so don't know what their velocities are. I do not believe that it gets higher velocities and it is a smaller caliber bullet as well.

I do know that a bear hunting guide in Wash State who was in on over 300 black bear kills taken with handguns and most of them were with police officers using their duty side arms. Compiled a list of handgun cartridges that he would use to hunt and defend his life from black bear attacks.

The bare minimum cal/cartridges that he would use are 10mm and 41 mag with 180gr plus bullet weights he groups these two together.

His personal favorite is the 44 mag with 240gr HP's and the best are are the .452" and up calibers with 300gr plus bullets.

For Black bears he recommends hp's because when the bullet hits the animal the bear usually spins and bites the area that the bullet hit giving time to shoot the bear again, hard cast wide meplated bullets zip thru and the bear runs off before you get a chance for a second shot.

Remember this is for hunting bears not stopping a charge.

In other words I do not own a handgun that shoots a bullet that is smaller than .400" in diameter and I prefer to carry .452" instead.

Very good post....I did a little digging.

JJ Hack is very well known in Black Bear hunting circles. It is known that he has been witness to or killed himself some several hundred if not almost 1000 Black Bears if you include non-hunting kills when he worked for DNR. The majority of the kills were with handguns in Washington St and Idaho area...I believe he is also an editor of a Bear Hunting magazine.

http://www.bear-hunting.com/

This is a quote directly from him on HIS own personal EXPERT experience with 45 ACP and Black Bear. (warning Rick) DO NOT READ!!!





I have had quite a few guys over the years ask about handgun cartridges for bear hunting. I really like hunting bears with handguns. I have likely taken more with a handgun then by any other means myself. Handguns have some limitations and some, even though referred to as handguns are more like little handheld rifles then handguns. The general term of handgun seems to stretch the definition quite a bit to include these single shot cannons!

When I think of a handgun I see a revolver or semi-auto pistol in my mind. However today the Thompson Contender and other single shot
handguns seem to have taken over as the handgun of choice for serious big game hunters. I have owned many contender barrels and several contender actions in my life so I’m quite familiar with them.

During my early years as a Professional Hunter I was using dogs to hunt lions and bears. I took out a number of guys from the mid-west and eastern states for bears during the spring Idaho hunts and the fall Washington hunts. It was not unusual to take 20 or 30 hunters out per year and shoot 30-40 bears per season. The Idaho regulation allowed 2 bears per hunter per year and the Washington regulations allowed only one fall bear per person.

We booked a hunter from Ohio early in our guiding business. He was a police officer that wanted to hunt using his on duty carry gun. In Idaho any gun .22 center-fire or larger was the minimum for big game. Washington State had muzzle energy minimum requirement at that time. We took the policeman out on the hunt with his 45 ACP shooting 250-grain soft point bullets. His first bear was treed and shot without much trouble. The bear was in the tree about 20 yards above us. We caught our breath, took a couple photos and then he prepared for the shot and fired. The impact was solid, smoke could easily be seen coming out of the hole in the bear’s chest. The bear was angry and peeling bark from the tree after being hit! He began to climb further up the tree when I yelled hit him again. I did not want the bear coming down with the dogs tied up and unable to escape from this angry wounded bear. He was about 225-240 pounds. A nice brown colored typical Idaho spring bear. At the second shot which hit nearly the same place as the first the bear really started going up the tree fast and I yelled to shoot again. I think the third shot missed but the forth hit him solid sounding like a baseball bat hitting a homerun.

The bear was barely visible up in the branches of the tall fir tree when all of a sudden we heard him crashing down and falling to the ground. When he hit the ground he was up in a flash and rolling and running down the hill. He was dead when he came to a stop on the flat, about 100 yards below us.

This experience was really educational for me. I saw this bear shot quite a few times with little effect from that 45 ACP shooting good 240 grain soft point bullets. The hunters accuracy was great, the bullets were big and heavy, and the bear was close. Why would this combination not be a much better killer? The hunter was thrilled and excited to go shoot another bear! This time he loaded his 240-grain HP’s for the hunt. We had a conversation regarding the lack of “crumple power” his gun had shown. He was surprised I felt that his gun was weak, or exhibited a lack of power. He asked what I was expecting from a handgun. I said I expect a bear shot in the center of the chest with a bullet to die in seconds, not continue to climb a tree and growl or be in a fighting mood. I also said if the bear comes out of the tree alive next time, I would also have to shoot him to protect my dogs. The hunter, although he understood the issue with the dogs, was still surprised by my opinion of his guns performance. He also respected my need to guard the dogs should a problem occur with the next bear.

The second bear was bayed and running and bayed and running all day. It’s a trait big bears have so I was quite worried about the gun he had. Eventually this bear also treed and we were able to get to the base of the tree before he jumped out again. It was a big bear of at least 300 pounds. I also carried my .44 magnum revolver this time, as backup. At the shot, which the bear took in the center of his chest all he did was growl and slap the tree with his paw. I said keep shooting until he falls, if he comes down alive I’m going to have to shoot him too.

This bear started to come down the tree. At the next shot he stopped and began to climb further up the tree but fell dead when he hit the ground in a moment or two. The Ohio policeman was thrilled again and really excited to see that his carry gun was so good at killing a big animal like this bear. Far-be it from me to ruin his feelings on the hunt or his gun, but I thought the performance was pathetic! He returned home amongst the most satisfied of all the clients I have ever had. He must have done a great sales job too, because for the next several years the majority of my hunters were mid western police officers using their carry guns for hunting. During this time I relived many of these types of multiple shot hunts at close range with various types of handguns. I suppose it’s where my opinionated feelings have come from regarding handguns for bears or other big game. I also have to laugh when I hear guys talking about “back up” guns for hikes in bear country, or while fishing in Alaska. I also see this kind of chat on the Internet hunting forums. Many of the guys who really believe their handgun is the “be all-end all” choice for protection. They would likely be leaving the dead weight of their gun home if they saw it’s pathetic performance on a 300 pound black bear, much less an angry 1000 pound brown bear or grizzly!

There have been a lot of handgun cartridges used over the years that I would consider worthless hunting guns for big game. The first is the 38
special. It’s lack of penetration and poor bullets are not meant for hunting. A human being is a very soft and mentally weak animal. A Human shot in the leg will go down for the count screaming for help. A deer or bear shot the same way will be a 100 yards away or more before you realize you made a bad shot. I have seen 30 pound coyotes shot with a 357 magnum run a long way before falling down. A man shot the same way would be praying for his life. There are so many drug induced mental problems with humans that those dopers who are shot might be as hard to stop as a bear or deer. The drugs would likely make them more worry free and likely to flee or fight with a serious wound. If I were a policeman watching how my carry gun performed on a bear that allowed him to climb a tree, after a perfectly centered chest shot I would certainly consider a bigger gun! It seems to me many criminals are on dope and they would be like shooting an adrenalin filled bear!

So what are the cartridges which are failures, and the cartridges which are gems in the handgun world according to my experience with hundreds of bears killed? The bad choices are the 38 caliber the 9mm, and the 40S&W. These three should be strictly police work, targets or plinkers. The 40 S&W, and 9mm need cleaning and attention daily. I have seen plenty of these semi-autos fail to cycle with pine needles jammed into them and leaf mulch or dirt in the action. They seemed to have the highest level of cleaning and maintenance needed by far. Revolvers on the other hand seem to be trouble free and made for hunting!

The next group of guns can kill bears but I would certainly not consider them hunting guns. The 357 magnum is able to kill a bear much better then the 9mm and the 38 special even though they actually shoot the same bullets. The 357 mag is much better then the 40S&W as well. The 357-magnum case is just a bigger capacity shell able to provide much better performance. If I were a cop it’s likely what I would carry based on what I saw it do to bears of all sizes. Don’t mistake me here, I don’t like it as a hunting gun for big game especially bears. The 45ACP is another gun which worked but not what I would like in a bear, or big game crumpling handgun. I think soft point bullets with maximum loads would give you a false sense of security for bear backup as well. I don’t see the hard cast bullets in 357 mag being enough better to trust 100 percent of the time. They are not what I would carry and I would never suggest anyone hunt even the smaller black bears or deer with one. The .44 special was a decent performer but again it fell short of the crumple effect I like to see in a bear hunting gun.

This next group is where I think the minimum line is drawn. The 41 magnum and the 10mm seem to have the power to really make an impression
on a bear. I have seen both these cartridges knock bears down and break leg bones. Something the others just don’t seem to be able to manage
consistently. These guns shoot over 1000 fps with bullets well into the 200-grain weight category. They seem to have nearly equal power and
accuracy as well. This is where I would suggest a minimum bear hunting handgun for close range start. They are certainly less than 50 yard guns but a great tool for bait and hound hunting. I would not suggest this cartridge as a backup or self defense against bears, only for hunting.

Finally the best group of guns. These are cartridges, which have never failed to decide matters and have the ability to crumple a bear in his tracks most of the time. The .44 magnum, the 45 long colt, and the 454. I have killed dozens of bears with the .44 magnum in my life and I don’t recall a single one running off after the first shot. I have recovered very few bullets and have broken the bones of the shoulder and legs countless times. These guns are more like rifles in performance then the typical police handguns I’ve seen so often. With a 240 grain hollow point going 1200 or more FPS the .44 magnum revolver is at the top of the heap as a commonly used hunting handgun. With Randy Garrett's hard cast ammo it will whistle though the shoulders of any bear in America. My .44 magnum was a Ruger Red hawk with a 7.5” barrel. It was an easy to shoot gun with plenty of crumple power. The same gun in 45 Long colt or 454 would be as good at getting the job done. I also have a 4” barrel Smith and Wesson Mountain gun that is as good but do to the lower Velocity of the short barrel it has a distance limitation of about 40-50 yards in my opinion. I consider these the proper size handguns for hunting the big game of the world.

The final “sub-category” are the wildcats, the contenders, and the new big bore revolvers. There is now a whole host of big bore revolvers like the 480 Ruger, the 50 caliber S&W, and the 50 Linebaugh. There is even a 45/70 revolver available now! Clearly all these are excellent bear killers if you decide to pack the additional weight and handle the massive recoil forces.

Keep these three factors in mind when deciding on a handgun for big game or bears. Make certain it has 1000 fps impact velocity, not muzzle velocity. .40 caliber or greater diameter, and finally, heavy bullets in the mid 200-grain weight range or bigger. With handguns so long as the impact velocity is about 1000 fps the best way to improve power and visual effect is by increasing diameter and weight of the bullet.

Remember also there are ways of having an effective increase in bullet diameter without changing caliber. Make sure if you use hard cast bullets you have the largest flat nose on the bullet possible also known as the “meplat”. Randy Garrett loads a bullet in his ammo which has a large flat nose which is almost bore diameter! This has an enormous effect on bullet impact over a pointed or rounded nose bullet. Granted the over all diameter has not changed but the bullets impact diameter has improved by a whole bunch with such a big flat nose.

One other thing to consider, don’t think that just because you load a heavy hard cast bullet you have the most powerful load for your gun. This is a very common mistake. Those big heavy bullets will often whistle clean through a big bear like a field tipped arrow. The bears will die but often show little bullet impact reaction. They also tend to run off and die a great distance away. In my experience a high velocity hollow point bullet will cause a significant impact reaction and almost always allow an additional shot while the bear is stunned. The bullets about 240-260 grains in weight as fast as you can drive them will always show a greater impact effect then the heavy hard cast bullets do. They don’t penetrate as well or break big bones as well, but they don’t need to on a black bear. I have shot clean through many many black bears broadside with a 240-grain hollow point bullet at 1200-1300fps muzzle velocity. Upon impact the bears will stop and spin around biting at the wound and struggle to move away. With the many I have shot using a 300 plus grain hard cast bullets, they have launched out of sight like a rocket. Showing little if any reaction to being hit.


Don’t mistake those big heavy hard cast bullets for the most powerful ammunition your gun can use. They are when matched to the proper game, like buffalo, moose, elk, and many African species. However for the typical 250 to 500 pound soft skinned black bear they are a mistake to use.

Consider what works better on a deer shot through the lungs. A 375HH with a 300 grain solid having 4500 foot pounds of energy, or a 270 caliber rifle shooting a 130 grain soft point bullet with only 2400 foot pounds of energy? Clearly you see the energy is far greater and the bullet weight and diameter is bigger on the 375HH. Upon impact the 300-grain solid blows a hole right through and you cannot even tell if you hit the animal. With the explosive 130-grain bullet from the .270 the deer will launch into the air with a nerve reaction and fall within a few steps. It’s the projectile that decides the result much of the time, not the perceived, or calculated power your gun has.

Don’t focus so much on muzzle energy, or the hype surrounding heavy hard cast bullets. The hard-cast bullets do have exceptional penetration, but at the cost of small diameter wounds which don’t often have the same effect as the bigger diameter hollow point wounds which have much more of a shocking or stunning effect. The benefits an explosive soft point or hollow-point will provide you with is a certain visual reaction, and significant tissue trauma. The heavy hard cast bullets are designed for exceptional penetration only. Randy is a friend of mine we have sat and talked about this paradox of bullet choice many times. Black bears absolutely realize more trauma from higher velocity soft bullets, or hollow points. The super hard-cast heavy bullets pass through so quickly with so little transfer of bullet impact that the reaction is poor. Yes both designs will kill bears, but the faster pass through of the solids will make your effort to locate the bear much longer. Often I have seen hunters consider their shot a miss because the bear will show no reaction at all to being hit. If this kind of bullet is chosen the best solution is to break bones and hope the fragments of projected bone will assist in the penetration of important organs like the lungs and heart. If brown bears are the main target then the heavy hard cast bullets make sense. They can be 4-6 times the weight of a black bear and you will likely be shooting for shoulder bones on these big bears. Then the big hard cast bullets are the perfect choice.

I have not come to these conclusions by seeing one or two bears killed, but by seeing as many as several hundred killed. Anyone can see a bear shot with spectacular results once or twice and assume the cartridge bullet combination is perfect. However seeing the same combination twenty, thirty, or more times really starts to give you higher resolution repeatable results. The results that carry the most weight are the ones with the greatest resolution or highest numbers. I have heard countless hunters claiming that their XYZ caliber and bullet is the perfect choice. When asked why they think this, the reply is that they shot a bear with it one time and it worked perfectly. Well in my opinion one time does not make for a very scientific or credible set of facts! This works the other way as well. Plenty of people will make or see a bad shot on game and assume they need a bigger gun. When in fact they only needed to make a better shot!

jj

To be fair to Rick he does state that he feels the MIN caliber to stop an enraged Bear attack would be 44 Mag, but 10mm would still be a better choice than factory 45 ACP.

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums//index.php/topic,89450.0.html

There you have it...real world experience and observation from a EXPERT!!!


NOW....who is OWNED???

 

[Gatehouse]

This next group is where I think the minimum line is drawn. The 41 magnum and the 10mm seem to have the power to really make an impression
on a bear. I have seen both these cartridges knock bears down and break leg bones. Something the others just don’t seem to be able to manage
consistently. These guns shoot over 1000 fps with bullets well into the 200-grain weight category. They seem to have nearly equal power and
accuracy as well. This is where I would suggest a minimum bear hunting handgun for close range start. They are certainly less than 50 yard guns but a great tool for bait and hound hunting. I would not suggest this cartridge as a backup or self defense against bears, only for hunting.

This is a pretty old article. I think I read it a few years ago. JJ regualrly contributed to Huntamerica, AR and 24 hr.

Interestingly, the hot loaded 45ACPs have a velocity over 1000fps wiht a 200gr bullet. The 45ACP loads he saw used probably were not as powerful, and the 10mm were undoubtably loaded rigth up. To compare cartrides fairly, you have to use the loads wiht max potential for both, not cherry pick loads to substantiate your claims.

The double tap data posted by 350 Mag shows the 200 gr bullets of both 45ACP and 10mm as pretty close in vleocity.

And JJ doens't suggest usig the 10mm as a back up for bear defense, either.

Interestingly, Phil Shoemaker, Alaskan Brown Bear outfitter of many years, a man who HAS stopped grizzlies wiht handguns- Used a 357 revolver for quite some time. He eventully gave it to his daughter, (also bear guide)and bougth a 44 Magnum lightweigh.

His reasoning was that in a charge situation wiht a handgun, the only thing that matters is fast, multiple hits, wiht enough penetration to get inside the skull, throat, spine or vitals. Hand cannons like the 454 and bigger were dismissed, as recoil wouldn't allow fast, multiple hits.

He says the most important thing about a handgun is HAVING one, so you can keep your confidence up when a bear is in the area, and hold your ground.

However, he (of course) believes that a handgun is no substitute for a riifle.

Which comes back to my point, and I think Ricks point, too. 10mm or 45ACP or 357....Doens't matter as much as who is behind the trigger- because they all fall short in dealing wiht bears.

 

[350 Mag]

This is a pretty old article. I think I read it a few years ago. JJ regualrly contributed to Huntamerica, AR and 24 hr.

Interestingly, the hot loaded 45ACPs have a velocity over 1000fps wiht a 200gr bullet. The 45ACP loads he saw used probably were not as powerful, and the 10mm were undoubtably loaded rigth up. To compare cartrides fairly, you have to use the loads wiht max potential for both, not cherry pick loads to substantiate your claims.

The double tap data posted by 350 Mag shows the 200 gr bullets of both 45ACP and 10mm as pretty close in vleocity.

And JJ doens't suggest usig the 10mm as a back up for bear defense, either.

Interestingly, Phil Shoemaker, Alaskan Brown Bear outfitter of many years, a man who HAS stopped grizzlies wiht handguns- Used a 357 revolver for quite some time. He eventully gave it to his daughter, (also bear guide)and bougth a 44 Magnum lightweigh.

His reasoning was that in a charge situation wiht a handgun, the only thing that matters is fast, multiple hits, wiht enough penetration to get inside the skull, throat, spine or vitals. Hand cannons like the 454 and bigger were dismissed, as recoil wouldn't allow fast, multiple hits.

He says the most important thing about a handgun is HAVING one, so you can keep your confidence up when a bear is in the area, and hold your ground.

However, he (of course) believes that a handgun is no substitute for a riifle.

Which comes back to my point, and I think Ricks point, too. 10mm or 45ACP or 357....Doens't matter as much as who is behind the trigger- because they all fall short in dealing wiht bears.

LOL you said before, along with Rick, that 45 ACP was just as adequate as 10mm when it came to Black Bears.....now your changing your tune???

I think YOU just GOT.......


Damage control??

LOL


I believe he refers to IMPACT VELOCITY should be 1000 or more?

The Double Tap 45 load is 1010 fps at the muzzle.....so at 20 yards it is probably well under that?

 

[Gatehouse]

LOL you said before, along with Rick, that 45 ACP was just as adequate as 10mm when it came to Black Bears.....now your changing your tune???

Where did I post that? I said that in a defense situation, you probably couldnt' tell the difference, and shot placement is more critical than cartridges that are so close together in performance.

I believe he refers to IMPACT VELOCITY should be 1000 or more?

The Double Tap 45 load is 1010 fps at the muzzle.....so at 20 yards it is probably well under that

Now you are just making things up. Nowhere does he talk about impact velocity. He only saus "velocity over 1000fps wiht 200gr bullets" How will he know exactly the range of the shot, anyway?

I don't know the exact circumstances of JJ's experience, but it sounds to me that he had a hunter using factory ammo, loaded to regular 45ACP specs, which is a modest, low pressure loading, due to the age of the cartridge and the older guns it may be used in. They were mostly cops he says, and cops are most liekly to use a load that is familiar to them- Not develop a +P handload for thier service handguns.

Then he is comparing it to a much more modern cartridge, that is loaded to much higher pressures for modern firearms. Like your Double Tap ammo- undoubtably loaded to higher pressures than regular good ol factory Federal 45ACP softpoint.

Shoot 20 black bears of similar size with Double Tap 45 ACP and 20 wiht Double tap 10mm. Make sure shot placement is the same for all bears.Now you have a small statistic- But I bet you won't see much difference at all.

 

[350 Mag]

Now you are just making things up. Nowhere does he talk about impact velocity. He only saus "velocity over 1000fps wiht 200gr bullets" How will he know exactly the range of the shot, anyway?

.

ONCE again....

Damage control....and you have been



READ the article AGAIN...it is GOLD...pure BEAR EXPERT GOLD....45 is pathetic is his exact words...?


He specifically makes mention of IMPACT velocities being GREATER than 1000 fps...



I have had quite a few guys over the years ask about handgun cartridges for bear hunting. I really like hunting bears with handguns. I have likely taken more with a handgun then by any other means myself. Handguns have some limitations and some, even though referred to as handguns are more like little handheld rifles then handguns. The general term of handgun seems to stretch the definition quite a bit to include these single shot cannons!

When I think of a handgun I see a revolver or semi-auto pistol in my mind. However today the Thompson Contender and other single shot
handguns seem to have taken over as the handgun of choice for serious big game hunters. I have owned many contender barrels and several contender actions in my life so I’m quite familiar with them.

During my early years as a Professional Hunter I was using dogs to hunt lions and bears. I took out a number of guys from the mid-west and eastern states for bears during the spring Idaho hunts and the fall Washington hunts. It was not unusual to take 20 or 30 hunters out per year and shoot 30-40 bears per season. The Idaho regulation allowed 2 bears per hunter per year and the Washington regulations allowed only one fall bear per person.

We booked a hunter from Ohio early in our guiding business. He was a police officer that wanted to hunt using his on duty carry gun. In Idaho any gun .22 center-fire or larger was the minimum for big game. Washington State had muzzle energy minimum requirement at that time. We took the policeman out on the hunt with his 45 ACP shooting 250-grain soft point bullets. His first bear was treed and shot without much trouble. The bear was in the tree about 20 yards above us. We caught our breath, took a couple photos and then he prepared for the shot and fired. The impact was solid, smoke could easily be seen coming out of the hole in the bear’s chest. The bear was angry and peeling bark from the tree after being hit! He began to climb further up the tree when I yelled hit him again. I did not want the bear coming down with the dogs tied up and unable to escape from this angry wounded bear. He was about 225-240 pounds. A nice brown colored typical Idaho spring bear. At the second shot which hit nearly the same place as the first the bear really started going up the tree fast and I yelled to shoot again. I think the third shot missed but the forth hit him solid sounding like a baseball bat hitting a homerun.

The bear was barely visible up in the branches of the tall fir tree when all of a sudden we heard him crashing down and falling to the ground. When he hit the ground he was up in a flash and rolling and running down the hill. He was dead when he came to a stop on the flat, about 100 yards below us.

This experience was really educational for me. I saw this bear shot quite a few times with little effect from that 45 ACP shooting good 240 grain soft point bullets. The hunters accuracy was great, the bullets were big and heavy, and the bear was close. Why would this combination not be a much better killer? The hunter was thrilled and excited to go shoot another bear! This time he loaded his 240-grain HP’s for the hunt. We had a conversation regarding the lack of “crumple power” his gun had shown. He was surprised I felt that his gun was weak, or exhibited a lack of power. He asked what I was expecting from a handgun. I said I expect a bear shot in the center of the chest with a bullet to die in seconds, not continue to climb a tree and growl or be in a fighting mood. I also said if the bear comes out of the tree alive next time, I would also have to shoot him to protect my dogs. The hunter, although he understood the issue with the dogs, was still surprised by my opinion of his guns performance. He also respected my need to guard the dogs should a problem occur with the next bear.

The second bear was bayed and running and bayed and running all day. It’s a trait big bears have so I was quite worried about the gun he had. Eventually this bear also treed and we were able to get to the base of the tree before he jumped out again. It was a big bear of at least 300 pounds. I also carried my .44 magnum revolver this time, as backup. At the shot, which the bear took in the center of his chest all he did was growl and slap the tree with his paw. I said keep shooting until he falls, if he comes down alive I’m going to have to shoot him too.

This bear started to come down the tree. At the next shot he stopped and began to climb further up the tree but fell dead when he hit the ground in a moment or two. The Ohio policeman was thrilled again and really excited to see that his carry gun was so good at killing a big animal like this bear. Far-be it from me to ruin his feelings on the hunt or his gun, but I thought the performance was pathetic! He returned home amongst the most satisfied of all the clients I have ever had. He must have done a great sales job too, because for the next several years the majority of my hunters were mid western police officers using their carry guns for hunting. During this time I relived many of these types of multiple shot hunts at close range with various types of handguns. I suppose it’s where my opinionated feelings have come from regarding handguns for bears or other big game. I also have to laugh when I hear guys talking about “back up” guns for hikes in bear country, or while fishing in Alaska. I also see this kind of chat on the Internet hunting forums. Many of the guys who really believe their handgun is the “be all-end all” choice for protection. They would likely be leaving the dead weight of their gun home if they saw it’s pathetic performance on a 300 pound black bear, much less an angry 1000 pound brown bear or grizzly!
There have been a lot of handgun cartridges used over the years that I would consider worthless hunting guns for big game. The first is the 38
special. It’s lack of penetration and poor bullets are not meant for hunting. A human being is a very soft and mentally weak animal. A Human shot in the leg will go down for the count screaming for help. A deer or bear shot the same way will be a 100 yards away or more before you realize you made a bad shot. I have seen 30 pound coyotes shot with a 357 magnum run a long way before falling down. A man shot the same way would be praying for his life. There are so many drug induced mental problems with humans that those dopers who are shot might be as hard to stop as a bear or deer. The drugs would likely make them more worry free and likely to flee or fight with a serious wound. If I were a policeman watching how my carry gun performed on a bear that allowed him to climb a tree, after a perfectly centered chest shot I would certainly consider a bigger gun! It seems to me many criminals are on dope and they would be like shooting an adrenalin filled bear!

So what are the cartridges which are failures, and the cartridges which are gems in the handgun world according to my experience with hundreds of bears killed? The bad choices are the 38 caliber the 9mm, and the 40S&W. These three should be strictly police work, targets or plinkers. The 40 S&W, and 9mm need cleaning and attention daily. I have seen plenty of these semi-autos fail to cycle with pine needles jammed into them and leaf mulch or dirt in the action. They seemed to have the highest level of cleaning and maintenance needed by far. Revolvers on the other hand seem to be trouble free and made for hunting!

The next group of guns can kill bears but I would certainly not consider them hunting guns. The 357 magnum is able to kill a bear much better then the 9mm and the 38 special even though they actually shoot the same bullets. The 357 mag is much better then the 40S&W as well. The 357-magnum case is just a bigger capacity shell able to provide much better performance. If I were a cop it’s likely what I would carry based on what I saw it do to bears of all sizes. Don’t mistake me here, I don’t like it as a hunting gun for big game especially bears. The 45ACP is another gun which worked but not what I would like in a bear, or big game crumpling handgun. I think soft point bullets with maximum loads would give you a false sense of security for bear backup as well. I don’t see the hard cast bullets in 357 mag being enough better to trust 100 percent of the time. They are not what I would carry and I would never suggest anyone hunt even the smaller black bears or deer with one. The .44 special was a decent performer but again it fell short of the crumple effect I like to see in a bear hunting gun.

This next group is where I think the minimum line is drawn. The 41 magnum and the 10mm seem to have the power to really make an impression
on a bear. I have seen both these cartridges knock bears down and break leg bones. Something the others just don’t seem to be able to manage
consistently. These guns shoot over 1000 fps with bullets well into the 200-grain weight category. They seem to have nearly equal power and
accuracy as well. This is where I would suggest a minimum bear hunting handgun for close range start. They are certainly less than 50 yard guns but a great tool for bait and hound hunting. I would not suggest this cartridge as a backup or self defense against bears, only for hunting.

Finally the best group of guns. These are cartridges, which have never failed to decide matters and have the ability to crumple a bear in his tracks most of the time. The .44 magnum, the 45 long colt, and the 454. I have killed dozens of bears with the .44 magnum in my life and I don’t recall a single one running off after the first shot. I have recovered very few bullets and have broken the bones of the shoulder and legs countless times. These guns are more like rifles in performance then the typical police handguns I’ve seen so often. With a 240 grain hollow point going 1200 or more FPS the .44 magnum revolver is at the top of the heap as a commonly used hunting handgun. With Randy Garrett's hard cast ammo it will whistle though the shoulders of any bear in America. My .44 magnum was a Ruger Red hawk with a 7.5” barrel. It was an easy to shoot gun with plenty of crumple power. The same gun in 45 Long colt or 454 would be as good at getting the job done. I also have a 4” barrel Smith and Wesson Mountain gun that is as good but do to the lower Velocity of the short barrel it has a distance limitation of about 40-50 yards in my opinion. I consider these the proper size handguns for hunting the big game of the world.

The final “sub-category” are the wildcats, the contenders, and the new big bore revolvers. There is now a whole host of big bore revolvers like the 480 Ruger, the 50 caliber S&W, and the 50 Linebaugh. There is even a 45/70 revolver available now! Clearly all these are excellent bear killers if you decide to pack the additional weight and handle the massive recoil forces.

Keep these three factors in mind when deciding on a handgun for big game or bears. Make certain it has 1000 fps impact velocity, not muzzle velocity. .40 caliber or greater diameter, and finally, heavy bullets in the mid 200-grain weight range or bigger. With handguns so long as the impact velocity is about 1000 fps the best way to improve power and visual effect is by increasing diameter and weight of the bullet.
Remember also there are ways of having an effective increase in bullet diameter without changing caliber. Make sure if you use hard cast bullets you have the largest flat nose on the bullet possible also known as the “meplat”. Randy Garrett loads a bullet in his ammo which has a large flat nose which is almost bore diameter! This has an enormous effect on bullet impact over a pointed or rounded nose bullet. Granted the over all diameter has not changed but the bullets impact diameter has improved by a whole bunch with such a big flat nose.

One other thing to consider, don’t think that just because you load a heavy hard cast bullet you have the most powerful load for your gun. This is a very common mistake. Those big heavy bullets will often whistle clean through a big bear like a field tipped arrow. The bears will die but often show little bullet impact reaction. They also tend to run off and die a great distance away. In my experience a high velocity hollow point bullet will cause a significant impact reaction and almost always allow an additional shot while the bear is stunned. The bullets about 240-260 grains in weight as fast as you can drive them will always show a greater impact effect then the heavy hard cast bullets do. They don’t penetrate as well or break big bones as well, but they don’t need to on a black bear. I have shot clean through many many black bears broadside with a 240-grain hollow point bullet at 1200-1300fps muzzle velocity. Upon impact the bears will stop and spin around biting at the wound and struggle to move away. With the many I have shot using a 300 plus grain hard cast bullets, they have launched out of sight like a rocket. Showing little if any reaction to being hit.


Don’t mistake those big heavy hard cast bullets for the most powerful ammunition your gun can use. They are when matched to the proper game, like buffalo, moose, elk, and many African species. However for the typical 250 to 500 pound soft skinned black bear they are a mistake to use.

Consider what works better on a deer shot through the lungs. A 375HH with a 300 grain solid having 4500 foot pounds of energy, or a 270 caliber rifle shooting a 130 grain soft point bullet with only 2400 foot pounds of energy? Clearly you see the energy is far greater and the bullet weight and diameter is bigger on the 375HH. Upon impact the 300-grain solid blows a hole right through and you cannot even tell if you hit the animal. With the explosive 130-grain bullet from the .270 the deer will launch into the air with a nerve reaction and fall within a few steps. It’s the projectile that decides the result much of the time, not the perceived, or calculated power your gun has.

Don’t focus so much on muzzle energy, or the hype surrounding heavy hard cast bullets. The hard-cast bullets do have exceptional penetration, but at the cost of small diameter wounds which don’t often have the same effect as the bigger diameter hollow point wounds which have much more of a shocking or stunning effect. The benefits an explosive soft point or hollow-point will provide you with is a certain visual reaction, and significant tissue trauma. The heavy hard cast bullets are designed for exceptional penetration only. Randy is a friend of mine we have sat and talked about this paradox of bullet choice many times. Black bears absolutely realize more trauma from higher velocity soft bullets, or hollow points. The super hard-cast heavy bullets pass through so quickly with so little transfer of bullet impact that the reaction is poor. Yes both designs will kill bears, but the faster pass through of the solids will make your effort to locate the bear much longer. Often I have seen hunters consider their shot a miss because the bear will show no reaction at all to being hit. If this kind of bullet is chosen the best solution is to break bones and hope the fragments of projected bone will assist in the penetration of important organs like the lungs and heart. If brown bears are the main target then the heavy hard cast bullets make sense. They can be 4-6 times the weight of a black bear and you will likely be shooting for shoulder bones on these big bears. Then the big hard cast bullets are the perfect choice.

I have not come to these conclusions by seeing one or two bears killed, but by seeing as many as several hundred killed. Anyone can see a bear shot with spectacular results once or twice and assume the cartridge bullet combination is perfect. However seeing the same combination twenty, thirty, or more times really starts to give you higher resolution repeatable results. The results that carry the most weight are the ones with the greatest resolution or highest numbers. I have heard countless hunters claiming that their XYZ caliber and bullet is the perfect choice. When asked why they think this, the reply is that they shot a bear with it one time and it worked perfectly. Well in my opinion one time does not make for a very scientific or credible set of facts! This works the other way as well. Plenty of people will make or see a bad shot on game and assume they need a bigger gun. When in fact they only needed to make a better shot!

jj

I just hate it when I am right....


Oh, by the way...if that patrol officer was using DoubleTap 45 he may have made a one shot kill....not 4

Oh and you are right...this is an old article...but had JJ Hack seen or tried DOUBLETAP 10mm he just might have given it consideration as a "Black Bear Defense round"...

 

[G37]

I liked that article - very entertaining.
I want to get a Ruger Redhawk now in .44Magnum

 

[350 Mag]

I liked that article - very entertaining.
I want to get a Ruger Redhawk now in .44Magnum

NO...get urself a S&W 460V.

5 inch barrel.

Compensated.

can shoot 45 colt, 454 Casul, and 460 S&W Magnum(at 2000 fps).

VERY impressive revolver.

Or you can have Gunnar chop you a Ruger 454 they look pretty sweet when all is said and done...

 

[350 Mag]

GATEHOUSE and RICK....

 

[Gatehouse]

Okay, using your EXPERTS criteria:

Make certain it has 1000 fps impact velocity, not muzzle velocity. .40 caliber or greater diameter, and finally, heavy bullets in the mid 200-grain weight range or bigger. With handguns so long as the impact velocity is about 1000 fps the best way to improve power and visual effect is by increasing diameter and weight of the bullet


I have copied your Doubletap data (excluding loadings that do not meet JJ's minimum 200gr weight criteria) :


DoubleTap 10mm

200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95

Comparing 200 gr bullets, the 10mm comes in at only 125 fps faster than the 45 ACP. 10mm will keep up at 1000fps for almost 100 yards, 45ACP will keep 1000 fps until about 85 yards. Whoppee...

I can't see any sane person taking that far a shot on a bear with either cartridge.

And the 230gr selections- difference of 30fps. Not enough to even mention.

With handguns so long as the impact velocity is about 1000 fps the best way to improve power and visual effect is by increasing diameter and weight of the bullet

And the 45ACP wins in bullet diameter...And if you look at Dbl Taps expansion measurements the 45ACP expanded much wider- Increasing wound channel volume.

And since you like numbers and graphs, here is a few more for you. If we calculate the wound channel as a cylinder (which isn't what a wound channel looks like, but it's all we have with these numbers) we find these wound channel volumes (bold, in cubic inches). It does illustrate what JJ was talking about when he mentioned increasing bullet diameter:

DoubleTap 10mm

200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
31.77
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"
13.28
8.5

DoubleTap .45ACP
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
34.68
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95
43.25

Wow, those 45ACP bullets sure disrupt more tissue. The 230gr 10mm volume is PATHETIC.