Camp Cook said:
I am going to put this in simple turns...
The 10mm is the most powerful production semi-auto cartridge available today.
Wrong.
That would be the Magnum Research Model XIX in .44 Magnum and .50AE, I believe. Making the 10mm not even a pretender to the throne. I have shot the .50AE, and it is very controllable indeed.
Geo your 4" 357mag loaded with appropriate loads will come very close to closing the gap but does not in the end match 10mm ballistics, as well as you have to consider more rounds and faster reloading capabilities for the 10mm.
I suppose we're comparing a 4" revolver barrel to a 5" SA barrel here. Without degenerating into measurebating, given that there are published loads from VV and others that will move a 200 gr. bullet out of a .357 Magnum at between 1300 and 1350 fps, I think any real difference between the two simply comes down to measurebating.
Somebody with Quickload can figure out the velocity loss from a 6" to 4" barrel in the .357 - or to an equivilent 5" barrel for those who have one of those 5" series that regularly came out/those with a trimmed down 6" barrel. Or compare to one of the 10mm 4.5" barrels. I think we'll still be reduced to measurebating to find any difference, none of it meaningful.
Of course, if we're measurebating ballistics to see what has the theoretical edge, we'd have to consider terminal ballistics. That means we have to play with sectional density. And if you believe it is all about penetration and nothing more, you have to include the SD differences in the measurebation. Weight for weight, SD favors smaller calibers, so....
I do believe it is safe to say that (using the data posted here for Double Tap ammunition - unavailable in Canada where this matters) if a 200gr Double Tap 10mm load has a muzzle velocity of 1250 fps and 19" of penetration, then I would expect a 200 grain .357 load going 1350 fps at the muzzle to be pretty much the same thing. Assuming similar bullet makes were used, of course.
As for speed in reloading and number of shots... I'm not sure a bear is going to give you enough time for the number of rounds an autoloader carries to make a difference over a 6, 7, or 8 shot revolver. And if you're trying to reload after being empty, there's a good chance the bear in question might be distracting you from reloading by doing something amusing like gnawing on your face or something like that.
If we are going to deal with "what if's", there is the fact that a revolver doesn't get shoved out of battery by being pressed against a bear's hide or skull. They also don't have jams and stovepipes, even if you're weak wristing them, have them partially pressed up against your body or fur when you fire, etc. Immediate action drills, slapping, tapping, and racking to clear stoppages are a ##### when something is chewing on your face.
Of course, this is akin to measurebating. You aren't likely to be in a situation where an auto pistol jams for whatever reason, and you're not likely to have to go to reloads (and have the chance to do it in the first place). Revolvers and pistols each have their strengths and weaknesses in defensive situations. As far as that goes, one can have a .357 Magnum in a pistol if you want one.
I wouldn't own a 45acp handgun for defense unfortunately they just don't cut it...
We have one previous poster here who has found the .45 ACP to work for defense just fine.
Under my ATC I have dispatched two black bears since 1980 . Both were in full charge mode , both were killed within feet , not yards and both were taken down with a .45 ACP.
You could try convincing him of the error of his experiences, but unfortunately, I don't think he's viewing the thread any longer.
And the CO's in this province also shoot blackies with the .40 S&W and it seems to make them go flop - I have not heard an outcry from CO's that they need a bigger handgun. And some doing predator control with their dogs have shot a LOT of bears with a .40 S&W. You might also ask rgv to provide more details of the number of bears he has personally witnessed CO's shoot with a 40 S&W. I have spoken to him about this face to face while heading into camp, as it happens, and from what he told me the .40 S&W dumped bears with authority.
As far as that goes, I have destroyed two crippled bears with an issue .38 Spl and ordinary service ammunition. They weren't charging but they were very much alive, mobile, and upset. They went flop pretty fast, and the .38 Spl service load doesn't have anything on the .45 ACP.
Your milage, of course, may vary. And if you have had problems killing black bears with a .45 ACP under the conditions of your ATC in real life, then that is important experience worth hearing about, and I for one would find it very interesting to hear about.
However, too often pronouncements are made based on small differences in ballistic charts and internet lore. As our friend who killed two charging black bears with a .45 ACP noted, the bears don't read ballistic charts. I suspect most of the CO's destroying bears with 40 S&W's don't pay much attention to ballistic charts either.
Here are my choices from years of carrying handguns for defense...
And good choices they are.
Sorry guys but 350mag has it right...
Or... you and he are wrong... there's the other possiblity.
I'll side with the guys who have actually killed charging black bears with a .45 ACP and guys regularly destroying bears with a slightly lesser cartridge over theory and measurebating using ballistic charts any day.
And at the end of the day, I want a shotgun, not a handgun, if I have to have a problem with a bear. In the meantime, I'm not going to tell others what to use, but when the possible problems are primarily black bears and cougars with some chance of grumbly bear problems, I'm personally quite happy with either a .357 Magnum or .40 S&W. If I ever end up working where the potential problem is lots of grumbly bears, then I'll be looking at a .45-08, 50AE, or something of similar power that I can shoot both fast and accurately.