is an antique worth the price for unrestricted carry?

Canuck44 said:
I phoned the Canadian Firearms Centre. 1. An Antique Firearm is a firearm under the Criminal Code if it is used in a crime, otherwise it is not a firearm.
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Says the same people who think 80% lowers are prohibited.

Ask them if you are allowed to point one at someone.

If you want to know the law, ask a judge. IF you want a legal opinion, ask a lawyer. Asking the CFO what is or isn't legal is like a sheep asking the fox whats for dinner.
 
Cameron SS said:
Says the same people who think 80% lowers are prohibited.

Ask them if you are allowed to point one at someone.

If you want to know the law, ask a judge. IF you want a legal opinion, ask a lawyer. Asking the CFO what is or isn't legal is like a sheep asking the fox whats for dinner.[/QUOTOt

or listening to posts on the internet perhaps that suggest a designated Antique is restricted, which it isn't. BTW My retired Judge told me to get hold of the CFO office and ask them how the law is applied.. I did. For me I have the knowledge I need. Brandishing or pointing an Antique is breaking the law, unless you are defending yourself but I doubt that is not what you were referring to. If you want to know the answer to your question follow the dialing instructions in my previous post.

Take Care

Bob
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Would be nice if all black powder firearms were deemed at least non restricted. Some fellows at the range don't appreciate having their sight line blocked by smoke from someone up wind firing smokin' oldies.
 
I apologize if this has been pointed out elsewhere in the thread, but I am too lazy to check through 11 pages. The language is pretty clear, you need to transport an antique firearm that is a handgun unloaded and in a locked box.

edit:
(OK... I guess it is not clear, I just can't make heads or tails out of these crazy laws as it seems the CFOs are interpreting this differently)

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-209/page-2.html#h-12
 
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gorby said:
I apologize if this has been pointed out elsewhere in the thread, but I am too lazy to check through 11 pages. The language is pretty clear, you need to transport an antique firearm that is a handgun unloaded and in a locked box.

edit:
(OK... I guess it is not clear, I just can't make heads or tails out of these crazy laws as it seems the CFOs are interpreting this differently)

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-209/page-2.html#h-12
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In n opaque locked container. No mention of gun locks. This is considered a safety issue.

Take care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
Cameron SS said:
Says the same people who think 80% lowers are prohibited.

Ask them if you are allowed to point one at someone.

If you want to know the law, ask a judge. IF you want a legal opinion, ask a lawyer. Asking the CFO what is or isn't legal is like a sheep asking the fox whats for dinner.[/QUOTOt

or listening to posts on the internet perhaps that suggest a designated Antique is restricted, which it isn't. BTW My retired Judge told me to get hold of the CFO office and ask them how the law is applied.. I did. For me I have the knowledge I need. Brandishing or pointing an Antique is breaking the law, unless you are defending yourself but I doubt that is not what you were referring to. If you want to know the answer to your question follow the dialing instructions in my previous post.

Take Care

Bob
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Nothing in the criminal code prohibits me from pointing a baseball bat, a pen, or my finger at people. Brandishing typically means with a particular intent to threaten so lets not muddy the water with brandishing.

If an antique is not a firearm then it should be perfectly legal to point at people. If it IS a firearm, than per S88 it is illegal to point.

Do me a favour and read the definition of restricted firearm and tell me how an antique handgun would not be a restricted firearm (caveat, SOME firearms are PRESCRIBED to be antiques, and some meet the definition in 84(3). We are not talking about the prescribed ones. At least I am not).
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The way it was explained to me the Antique becomes a firearm under the Criminal Code if it is used in a criminal activity. If you take a knife and point it at somebody the knife becomes a weapon. If you point a firearm at somebody as to threaten them the Antique becomes a firearm because at that point you are breaking a law. Because an Antique is not otherwise considered a firearm The Firearm Act does not apply. This came across a couple of times during my conversation with the Cdn. Firearms Centre. If you point it under the chin of a large bear I guess you are then called lucky. LOL

Incidentally my old Colt New Navy DA/SA has not had more than 100 rounds through it over the past 108 years based upon my Grand-dad and Mothers accounts. The bluing on the barrel is worn off from Grand kids playing with the gun on visits to their Grand-dad and Grand-ma's house. Guilty I am afraid.

Take Care

Bob
 
I think it would be an insult to someone’s intelligence assuming they have not looked up the applicable laws and regulations with respects to antiques, the firearms act and hunting regs.

Yes, a non firearm antique becomes a firearm when used as a weapon, in a crime or in a threatening manner. Go figure. Since this is a group of sport, target, collectors, hunters, we can assume this is understood and a non issue. Can we move past this now?

Since the OP’s question has been answered as best it can be... what’s everyone shooting for antique’s here? Pics would be king.
 
The problem here isn’t what the law says (other than firearm laws being ridiculous)

The problem is that the police can charge you even if they know you’re not breaking any laws. Prosecution will take it to trial even though you didn’t break the law. You will have to pay huge legal defense costs with no way to recover the money if/when you win.
 
Canuck44 said:
The way it was explained to me the Antique becomes a firearm under the Criminal Code if it is used in a criminal activity. If you take a knife and point it at somebody the knife becomes a weapon. If you point a firearm at somebody as to threaten them the Antique becomes a firearm because at that point you are breaking a law. Because an Antique is not otherwise considered a firearm The Firearm Act does not apply. This came across a couple of times during my conversation with the Cdn. Firearms Centre. If you point it under the chin of a large bear I guess you are then called lucky. LOL

Incidentally my old Colt New Navy DA/SA has not had more than 100 rounds through it over the past 108 years based upon my Grand-dad and Mothers accounts. The bluing on the barrel is worn off from Grand kids playing with the gun on visits to their Grand-dad and Grand-ma's house. Guilty I am afraid.

Take Care

Bob
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Well this is where it could get real ugly.

ANYTHING becomes a WEAPON if it is used with intent to harm, threaten, etc. OBVIOUSLY a firearm becomes a weapon in those cases. However S 88 of the criminal code does not concern itself with weapons. Just firearms.

It is unlawful under any and all circumstances regardless of intent, to point a firearm at another human being.

In the list of things that Antiques are exempt from, S 88 is NOT one of them. Something doesn't BECOME a firearm because you pointed it. That is putting the cart before the horse and begs the question of what else might become a firearm if pointed.

At the end of the day, Firearm is defined in Section 2. Antiques that are functional clearly meet that definition, and are therefore firearms.

Once we agree its a firearm, S 84 defines types and classes, such as handgun, as well Res, Prohib, etc.

Antique Handguns clearly meet the definition of handgun.

Being a firearm and a handgun, it is clearly restricted, if not prohibited.

Being a restricted or prohibited handgun that meets the criteria under 84(3), it is a restricted handgun that being an antique is exempt from some, but not all, criminal code sections.

NOTHING about how you use or intend to use a firearm can MAKE it fall within the definition of firearm in section 2, but it could make it a weapon.

This is true for all antiques, whether they are actually an antique or are prescribed to be.
 
Smcx said:
The problem here isn’t what the law says (other than firearm laws being ridiculous)

The problem is that the police can charge you even if they know you’re not breaking any laws. Prosecution will take it to trial even though you didn’t break the law. You will have to pay huge legal defense costs with no way to recover the money if/when you win.
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Well if a police officer KNOWS you didn't break the law, he is legally, morally and ethically bound to not lay charges. The truth there is that I doubt one cop in a thousand would have a sufficient knowledge of the law and the firearm in question as to be confident that a law wasn't broken, and having doubts regarding a firearm, they are well within their rights to lay a charge. Thats a problem with the law, not the cop.

As for the Crown, they tend not to proceed on charges they know they will lose, or charges where the risk of losing and having an unfavourable precedent set isn't worth the single conviction. This fear of losing when they are on murky ground is why we dont have any case law on the bogus mag opinions the CFP has been spouting.

Yes you may need to lawyer up, but any lawyer worth their paycheck can get those charges tossed pretty fast at minimal expense.
 
Justins1877 said:
I think it would be an insult to someone’s intelligence assuming they have not looked up the applicable laws and regulations with respects to antiques, the firearms act and hunting regs.

Yes, a non firearm antique becomes a firearm when used as a weapon, in a crime or in a threatening manner. Go figure. Since this is a group of sport, target, collectors, hunters, we can assume this is understood and a non issue. Can we move past this now?
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No, we can't. Because your wrong. Nothing in the definition of firearm considers intended use. Its either a firearm, or isn't. Likewise the definition for Antique does not consider use. It either is, or it isn't.

IF a firearm AND an antique, then it is exempt from some of the CC requirements. It is still, always, as firearm.
 
Cameron SS said:
No, we can't. Because your wrong. Nothing in the definition of firearm considers intended use. Its either a firearm, or isn't. Likewise the definition for Antique does not consider use. It either is, or it isn't.

IF a firearm AND an antique, then it is exempt from some of the CC requirements. It is still, always, as firearm.
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double check your facts.

your hand in your pocket when robbing someone is a firearm.... as long as you give them reason to believe it is.
 
Cameron SS said:
No, we can't. Because your wrong. Nothing in the definition of firearm considers intended use. Its either a firearm, or isn't. Likewise the definition for Antique does not consider use. It either is, or it isn't.

IF a firearm AND an antique, then it is exempt from some of the CC requirements. It is still, always, as firearm.
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I’m quite sure you’re* attempting to get me into some internet arguement, which is not going to happen. I suggest you look at the CC and firearms act again specifically regarding antiques before telling others their wrong. Everyone’s an internet lawyer though I spose’.
I’ll get my info from source, if you don’t mind. No court I know of recognizes “Cameron SS” (or on CGN for that matter) as an authority expert in the subject on laws cercerning the topic at hand.

Have a good day.
 
Daver_II said:
double check your facts.

your hand in your pocket when robbing someone is a firearm.... as long as you give them reason to believe it is.
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Double checked. Now go double check the law. You are muddying the water for no reason. We are talking about antiques, not imitation or replica firearms.

Criminal Code
S 85(2) Every person commits an offence who uses an imitation firearm

(a) while committing an indictable offence,

(b) while attempting to commit an indictable offence, or

(c) during flight after committing or attempting to commit an indictable offence,

whether or not the person causes or means to cause bodily harm to any person as a result of using the imitation firearm.

Imitation Firearm means any thing that imitates a firearm, and includes a replica firearm;
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Yes your gun hand can be deemed an imitation firearm, even in your pocket and unseen by the victim, if you take steps to convince the victim it is in fact a gun.

People have successfully defend charges under S85(2) by proving that the object in question is in fact a firearm. Arguing this defense is only a good idea if you weren't also charged with 85(1) for the same event.

Bottom line, is Firearm, and Non-firearm (ie imitations and replicas) are mutually exclusive categories. Functional antiques fall into the former (ie Firearm).
 
Cameron SS it wold be useful if you would just read the Section quoted a number of times in this thread. Once a handgun, rifle or shotgun is declared and antique it ceases to be a firearm under the law except where it is used in a criminal activity.. The CC says so. The CFO office says so. If in doubt phone.

As for willy nilly charging by police officers. I am sure it could happen but I have yet to meet a member of the RCMP who would knowingly lay a charge that he knew would not stand up or where there was no reason to make the charge. None. I am not saying the RCMP do not have issues, they do IMHO, but your assertion that notwithstanding the letter the RCMP issues, they would seize an Antique for no other reason is a bit difficult to consume.

Jusrins877 Mine is a Colt New Navy Model 1892 chambered in .41 LC. Here is Wikipedia's take on the gun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_M1892

Mine is an early example that has a fluted cylinder but does not have the lock up notches that came later in the production run. The gun has about 95% bluing on the frame but none on the barrel. The rifling is virtually as new. The gun has been handled over the years but not shot much. I am having the barrel slugged and do a bit better job of matching my bullets to the barrel diameter. I have the three Ideal molds, two made for the .41 Long Colt and one that was made for the 41 Short Colt.

I have been making 41LC cases out of 38spl cases. I intend to buy some Starline new .41LC brass this year. I will post pictures of the gun once I get it back from my gunsmith.

Take Care

Bob
 
Smcx said:
The problem here isn’t what the law says (other than firearm laws being ridiculous)

The problem is that the police can charge you even if they know you’re not breaking any laws. Prosecution will take it to trial even though you didn’t break the law. You will have to pay huge legal defense costs with no way to recover the money if/when you win.
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Oh yes the old police can’t be expected to know all the laws but ignorance of the law is no defence for you. This is how the crown punishes when they know they might lose as they have unlimited resources.
 
Canuck44 said:
Cameron SS it wold be useful if you would just read the Section quoted a number of times in this thread. Once a handgun, rifle or shotgun is declared and antique it ceases to be a firearm under the law except where it is used in a criminal activity.. The CC says so.
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No, it doesn't.

You have it exactly backwards. Barrelled objects that meet the definition of firearm and antique are ALWAYS firearms under the law, EXCEPT when certain offences have been committed, ie possession without a license, possession at an unauthorized place, possession together with ammunition/loaded.

Lets begin at the beginning. Here is the criminal code, s.2
firearm means a barrelled weapon from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person, and includes any frame or receiver of such a barrelled weapon and anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm;
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Does your antique have a barrel? From that barrel can any shot bullet or other projectile be discharged? Can such a projectile, having been discharged, cause serious bodily injury or death? If so, its a firearm.

Please show anywhere in Canadian law that an antique is not a firearm under S.2 of the criminal code. Full stop.

As for the RCMP, you know they aren't the only LE agency in the country right?

As the OP was originally talking about buying an antique in order to carry it loaded, I think if you went to any municipal agency in Canada, you would be hard pressed to find an officer who could discover such a loaded firearm and not want to seize it and lay charges.
 
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