Is Herters 303 British brass better than the other common types of boxer 303 brass?

[Snider shooter]

The DI cases I find have more of a copper color to them. The ones I have been using are holding up well. I don’t have a lot of them but would definitely take some more.
I found a bunch of WW2 and 50’s military 30-06 brass I have been using in my Garand which is out lasting current commercial brass. I am finding out that older brass is still go even though it is older than I am.
43 Mauser Dominion brass works good if mouths are annealed.How old are they?

 

[jethunter]

What does "having studied BALLISTICS in university" or BALLISTICS, in general have to do with this? ... ZERO.

How do you explain why case head separations happen so routinely with US commercial 303 British case or why that typically occurs forward of the expansion rings?

You should have studied politics at university. You certainly seem quite capable of just changing the subject when you don't have a good answer for the question.

"Ballistics" encompasses the period from when the firing pin contacts the primer until the bullet lands somewhere. Cartridge case behavior is part of that.

You're taking offense where none was intended.

 

[steelgray]

This is actually pretty amusing. You still aren't answering the question. Given your university education in "BALLLISTICS", how do you explain the phenomenon of how cases separation occurs in 303 British cases after a small number of firings AND occurs slightly forward where the expansion rings form? Rather than doing your Trudeau trick, why don't you answer the question ... or else don't waste our time, with your claimed credentials.

"Ballistics" encompasses the period from when the firing pin contacts the primer until the bullet lands somewhere. Cartridge case behavior is part of that.

You're taking offense where none was intended.

 

[jethunter]

This is actually pretty amusing. You still aren't answering the question. Given your university education in "BALLLISTICS", how do you explain the phenomenon of how cases separation occurs in 303 British cases after a small number of firings AND occurs slightly forward where the expansion rings form? Rather than doing your Trudeau trick, why don't you answer the question ... or else don't waste our time, with your claimed credentials.

I'm pleased to have amused you but I am not the person who claimed to have studied ballistics at university.

 

[steelgray]

I'm inclined to think that the brass cartridge case manufacturers have found that processing brass with more Zinc in the alloy costs more (even though Zinc is cheaper than Copper), because processing higher grade (i.e., harder, stronger) Copper-Zinc brass alloys takes more energy (because operations have to be done at higher temperatures) and may involve more operations to complete a case - and there could also be higher spoilage etc. This would add to costs.

Further, I would guess that any given cartridge case manufacturer may have a range of case forming machines and some may be newer or more capable than others. For example, a manufacturer could have a 40 year old machine that has been pumping-out 303 British cases for years and is about ready to be retired - but its useful life could be extended by using a lesser grade of brass - with say only 20% Zinc - versus the preferred 30%. "...that old girl can still process the 20% Zinc stuff". Such an OEM could figure "why not", we'll just use those cases in factory ammo where - as far and the vendor is concerned - if the brass only lasts one firing, who can complain? After all, we sold you ammo and it worked, didn't it?

Obviously I don't know if that is going on but I can see that. BTW in other non-CGN posts, there are people who claim that they have written to Winchester, Remington, etc. on this stuff and have received replies, saying "we don't certify our fired brass cases from our ammunition for reuse in reloading".

The DI cases I find have more of a copper color to them. The ones I have been using are holding up well. I don’t have a lot of them but would definitely take some more.
I found a bunch of WW2 and 50’s military 30-06 brass I have been using in my Garand which is out lasting current commercial brass. I am finding out that older brass is still go even though it is older than I am.
43 Mauser Dominion brass works good if mouths are annealed.How old are they?

 

[PinkyPlinker]

We have now entered the complete fantasy portion of thread.

 

[OkayShooter]

Who ever said their brass only lasts 1 firing?

Have you compared old Herters with new Herters?

 

[steelgray]

No, I don't know where you'd get a new Herters 303 British case - do you?

On the matter of brass only lasting one firing, I' wasn't really thinking of mission impossible and tape or cartridge just turning to smoke after one use.

If you've every posted on CGN you know that the title can only be so long and you have to engage in using some fairly compressed language.

The narrative of the post itself better covers the issue - namely that:

" ... not all factory ammo brass is created equal. People report that some newer brass, used in commercial US ammo, is almost useless for reloading; inasmuch as many people have said that their once fired cases seem to suffer head separations after a few reloadings."

Who ever said their brass only lasts 1 firing?

Have you compared old Herters with new Herters?

 

[OkayShooter]

Cabelas sells Herters 303 British ammo. They're newly manufactured, mainly rebranded. So guaranteed it's different than old stuff. But that just the nature of cost cuttings.

All brass I have are Igman.

 

[steelgray]

If I ever see Herters 303 British ammo at Cabelas, I'll buy some and try it. I imagine that it is different than the old stuff. Last time I was there, they didn't even have .311 projectiles.

They also had got rid of all their airsoft - possibly in case Justin came in and tried to get the whole chain shut down.

They even seemed to have got rid of those stupid noise popper things that are always being used by kids - when I shop there.

Maybe they know that those things are going to be included in the next C21 amendment.

Cabelas sells Herters 303 British ammo. They're newly manufactured, mainly rebranded. So guaranteed it's different than old stuff. But that just the nature of cost cuttings.

All brass I have are Igman.

 

[Snider shooter]

Cabela’s owns the Herters name and out sources production to who ever makes it the cheapest so it is possible that it is made by different companies. Any Herters brass I have hasn’t been fired much so can’t say how it stands up.

 

[Potashminer]

It was posted previously on CGN - possibly earlier in this thread - the old Herters company went bankrupt. Cabela's (or whomever owns them) bought the Herters brand name, so can plunk that on any product that they want to - made by whomever - as apparently the old Herters company did, as well. So seeing the brand name, does not really tell you who made the thing or where it was made - sort of like Weaver scopes - older, originals made in El Paso, Texas - now made some thousands miles West of there. Like Nicholsan files - used to be made in USA - the set that I bought have stamped "made in Mexico" on some, and "made in Brazil" on others - but all are legit "Nicholson" brand files.

 

[Raton57]

Well the pictures above throw a big pail of ice water on all his ideas.

 

[steelgray]

I was at the range this weekend and my steel core, pulled 54R "pills" - as you call them - shot substantially better than the Frontier 180 Gr. plated lead core "pills" that I was comparing them to - while I was using the same gun and the same powder and powder charge.

However, to be more technically-correct, most people used the term "pills" only to apply to projectiles which are .308 diameter and less. For projectiles which are .311 and larger, most people go with the term "suppositories"

Well - Your old Herters brass came from Higginsons years ago, and is of Scandinavian origin (Metallverken?). I had some, didnt particularly like it as 50% of the cases did not have a relief cut ahead of the rim, and fed poorly in my P-14s. Cant comment on the longevity, as I gave it away.
The PPU comes from the former Yugoslavia. It became more available after the wall fell, and moreso available these days. The ammo is budget grade, nothing more.
I've had various calibers over the years, including 303. It is thicker than most 303 brass, but that may be its only attribute. Poorly drilled flash holes (undersize), case runout, and varying neck ID/wall thickness are common faults that I have encountered. I have not tested it for longevity, as I have a large stash of Dominion and Imperial brass that I prefer to use.
Let us know how your PPU adventure goes. If you have an opportunity, pick up some of the older Remington brass, you may be pleasantly surprised.
BTW - What kind of groups are you getting with the pulled Russian pills? Are they copper clad steel jacket?

 

[I Dont Care About You]

I was at the range this weekend and my steel core, pulled 54R "pills" - as you call them - shot substantially better than the Frontier 180 Gr. plated lead core "pills" that I was comparing them to - while I was using the same gun and the same powder and powder charge.

Did you size up the necks to match the plated bullets? I am lead to understand that soft cast and plated bullets do not produce the best accuracy if the case neck is not sized up to fit the bullet. Apparently a neck that is too small (regular size out of the die) will shave lead off the bearing surface and destroy accuracy.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

I have a bunch of different 303Br brass that I have finally finished processing so I thought I'd weigh them because they are all as close to identical as I can make them. The cases all went through the exact same prep:

1. Deprimed and cleaned with steel pins to remove all fouling inside and out.
2. Primer pockets uniformed and flash holes deburred.
3. Full length sized
4. Trimmed to 2.212" length

Weights: (average of 10 cases)
[FONT=&quot]Imperial: 171.1 SD 6.6[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dominion: 164.4 SD 4.6[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Federal: 171.2 SD 1.6[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Winchester: 169.5 SD 1.1[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]PPU: 172.1 SD 1.0

I'm not sure these numbers say what I think most guys are gonna think they say.

Yes, the PPU are the heaviest but only by 0.9gr which equates to 0.5% heavier. The PPU are the most consistent with a standard deviation of 1.0gr but the Winchester and Federal (crap US made cases?) have excellent SD values as well.

The Imperial have a good average weight but the standard deviation is crap in comparison.

The Dominion (which I thought might be older production and not US) turned out to be crap ... in terms of weight and consistency.

In terms of cost, once fired Winchester or Federal would seem to be the best cost to quality choice. They can be had for $50 / 100 compared to the $115 / 100 the PPU brass costs. Is the PPU brass 56% better? Will it last 56% longer?

I have reasonable supplies of the Federal and Winchester, which is good. They can get used for target and hunting duties. The Imperial and Dominion, which I have far less of, will end up used for load development and plinking. Sadly I only have a handful of PPU so they got chucked in the Misc group.[/FONT]

 

[steelgray]

Knowing the weight of the brass in a given type of case used to be treated as a strong indicator of the quality of the case (say, in terms of its likely longevity, etc.). It is still true to a degree, but there is a twist.

Specifically, we know that brass is an alloy of metals which will have varying properties – depending on what is in the brass. More specifically, brass is an alloy – normally made-up prominently of copper and zinc; with possible trace amount of other stuff. Copper has a specific gravity (“SG”) of 8.930 – which, in simple terms, means that, for any given volume, copper is 8.9 times as heavy as the same volume of water. Copper is softer and denser or “heavier” than Zinc.

Zinc has an SG of 7.135 and is harder/ stronger and “lighter” than copper (for the same volume). If you blend the two – in equal parts – the specific gravity of the two would just be the average. When you blend the two metals with 70% copper and 30% Zinc, you’ve got an alloy that commercially is called “cartridge brass”, and the specific gravity is the weighted average of the two different SGs – which comes out to 8.392. Since Zinc is less-dense than copper, as you add more zinc – and less copper – to the mix, the density of the alloy goes down, even as you are putting in more of the stuff that adds to its strength.

If you are about to say “that’s crazy, how can a metal alloy be both stronger and lighter than another alloy mix” consider the case of your “el cheapo” bicycle – with a rolled steel frame, versus a bike with the same construction made with chrome moly steel. The latter going to be lighter and stronger. Similarly, a pure lead bullet is going to be more dense and softer than a lead alloy cast bullet that has some less-dense tin in the mix.

What it comes down to is that a case, made with cartridge grade brass, is going to weight a bit less than a case made of exactly the same volume of brass, if that second case was made with a lower quality brass – containing for example 20% zinc and 80% copper. A person could, in that instance say, “oh the heavier one is better”, but in that instance, they’d be wrong.

If you were to find a cartridge case that is heavier than others – AND is made of a higher quality of brass – that would have to mean that the case is made of less dense brass AND they have used more of that to make the case. Generally that would suggest that the case is better in two separate respects. Better alloy and more case thickness.

That could be the situation with Herter's 303 British cases. I'm looking into that now.

I have a bunch of different 303Br brass that I have finally finished processing so I thought I'd weigh them because they are all as close to identical as I can make them. The cases all went through the exact same prep:

1. Deprimed and cleaned with steel pins to remove all fouling inside and out.
2. Primer pockets uniformed and flash holes deburred.
3. Full length sized
4. Trimmed to 2.212" length

Weights: (average of 10 cases)
Imperial: 171.1 SD 6.6
Dominion: 164.4 SD 4.6
Federal: 171.2 SD 1.6
Winchester: 169.5 SD 1.1
PPU: 172.1 SD 1.0

<snip>

 

[slug]

Does anybody have a Ruger chambered it 303 to compare case life compared to a Lee Enfield .

Yes, I have a #1 with a heavy Shilen octagon barrel.
I just use old Herter's brass with no separation issues.

Some prefer it because European brass has drilled flash holes, unlike the American brass which has punched flash holes with a burr left behind.
The O ring and neck sizing is the answer.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

I just use old Herter's brass with no separation issues.

Some prefer it because European brass has drilled flash holes, unlike the American brass which has punched flash holes with a burr left behind.
The O ring and neck sizing is the answer.

Deburring punched flash holes is pretty easy to do.

 

[steelgray]

Does anybody have a Ruger chambered it 303 to compare case life compared to a Lee Enfield .

Yes, I have a #1 with a heavy Shilen octagon barrel.
I just use old Herter's brass with no separation issues.

Some prefer it because European brass has drilled flash holes, unlike the American brass which has punched flash holes with a burr left behind.
The O ring and neck sizing is the answer.

Thanks for this info. Needless to say, my belief would be that the reason that you're not having head separations with your #1 with a heavy Shilen octagon barrel isn’t because that gun is unique. My belief is that, if you use decent brass 303 British guns, should not exhibit the premature head separation problems.

I come by that view honestly because I have fired 80 old Herters 303 British cases at least 10 times now; many over 12 times. I fully resize these each time - as I have to because several of my 303 British guns are autoloaders. Further, I really don’t have the time to fuss over o-rings, neck sizing, duct tape fixes or whatever else some people do to pander to their junk US commercial brass.

The results are clear. These cases have been fired out of a total of 7 common guns – not one’s that someone has toiled-over to get the headspacing just so, doing multiple change bolt heads, etc.

Not one of these 80 cases has even shown even the start of an expansion ring, or a neck split - or any kind of signs of usage. All look brand new after 10-12 full power firings with jacketed bullets (including many loaded with steel core projectiles).

I have suffered the loss of three cases. All of these were because I had my scope installed a bit low on my Mohawk autoloader, causing these three cases to get damaged by bouncing off the underside of the scope and getting clobbered by the closing bolt. Those three got sectioned and all showed they were all internally as-new.

I just bought 5 boxes of 20 vintage/ NOS 303 British Herters brass from an auction site. These are certainly 30+ year old cases that may never have been out of their original boxes. I’ll post pictures of the packaging soon. For now, this purchase let’s me see how this stuff was sold, back in the day. The Boxes say “Made in Sweden”.