Is Herters 303 British brass better than the other common types of boxer 303 brass?
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Expansion rings don't really mean anything other then the brass has expanded and it shows. I have 308 Lapua, Norma, even IVI military cases that show expansion rings. Some are on 15 firings with no separation.... because expansion rings are not a sign of incipient separation.
Modern bolt guns with the ejector on the bolt face give a more uniform expansion, the cartridge is more or less centered in the chamber through the mechanical action and the cartridge is held tight on the shoulder in the chamber.
With the 303 which headspaces on the rim, in Lee's and P14's you usually get offset expansion rings, because the headspace is larger for the military rifles, and the case kind of sags a bit in one direction, it's not much, but the end result is a sort of banana shaped looking case after firing as the expansion happens mostly on one side of the case. That is why the o-ring trick is used, to get even expansion on the first firing. The offset expansion doesn't hurt anything, just looks ugly.
I've used regular old commercial north american brass in my 303's as well, and shot them until the primer pockets were too loose to hold a primer before trashing them. Never had any separations.
Now I don't try to get 30'06 velocity out of my 303's, they get loaded to mid range book loadings, and after first firing I only neck size, so they head space off the shoulder and not the rim. I think the worst thing you can do is FL size steady for these rifles, the brass gets worked too much. Just visually compare a sized 303 piece of brass to a fired one, it's not hard to see the difference how much they blow out. Compare that to a commercial rifle in any cartridge, you won't see any difference, proper tools will show some minor expansion but your eyes won't notice anything.
Hell I had one old 30-30 bolt gun that the brass came out looking like a Weatherby shoulder almost, not a straight line on that shoulder anywhere, blown out and round, brass looked terrible compared to a proper case. Shot fine though, and never had a problem neck sizing it after.
Modern bolt guns with the ejector on the bolt face give a more uniform expansion, the cartridge is more or less centered in the chamber through the mechanical action and the cartridge is held tight on the shoulder in the chamber.
With the 303 which headspaces on the rim, in Lee's and P14's you usually get offset expansion rings, because the headspace is larger for the military rifles, and the case kind of sags a bit in one direction, it's not much, but the end result is a sort of banana shaped looking case after firing as the expansion happens mostly on one side of the case. That is why the o-ring trick is used, to get even expansion on the first firing. The offset expansion doesn't hurt anything, just looks ugly.
I've used regular old commercial north american brass in my 303's as well, and shot them until the primer pockets were too loose to hold a primer before trashing them. Never had any separations.
Now I don't try to get 30'06 velocity out of my 303's, they get loaded to mid range book loadings, and after first firing I only neck size, so they head space off the shoulder and not the rim. I think the worst thing you can do is FL size steady for these rifles, the brass gets worked too much. Just visually compare a sized 303 piece of brass to a fired one, it's not hard to see the difference how much they blow out. Compare that to a commercial rifle in any cartridge, you won't see any difference, proper tools will show some minor expansion but your eyes won't notice anything.
Hell I had one old 30-30 bolt gun that the brass came out looking like a Weatherby shoulder almost, not a straight line on that shoulder anywhere, blown out and round, brass looked terrible compared to a proper case. Shot fine though, and never had a problem neck sizing it after.
As far as I know, none of the former North American vendors of 303 British ammo sell that stuff anymore. This means that the supply of "once fired" R-P, FC, Imperial, Frontier UMC, etc. brass will never be added to. Thus, the existing stocks of used junk North American brass will diminish as these cases fail - as the are effectively designed to do.
Hopefully these guns will continue to be used as owners switch to sources of new boxer brass - including PRVI. If the latter holds-up better than junk North American brass, this may abate undeserved accusations that the Lee-Enfield is a gun that is "really hard on brass" or a gun that is "plagued with headspace problems".
Hopefully these guns will continue to be used as owners switch to sources of new boxer brass - including PRVI. If the latter holds-up better than junk North American brass, this may abate undeserved accusations that the Lee-Enfield is a gun that is "really hard on brass" or a gun that is "plagued with headspace problems".
Below a rubber O-ring is fitted around the case rim that holds the case against the bolt face. This prevents the base of the case from stretching in the base web area.
The head clearance or the distance between the bolt face and the base of the case. This allows the case to stretch that amount and cause case head separations.
Below the case is held against the bolt face by the o-ring when fired and prevents the case from stretching.
After this fire forming the case will headspace on the case shoulder.
Below the fired Privi case on the left has a thicker rim and is larger in base diameter. The Greek case is smaller in diameter and has a thinner rim.
Below is a fired case in a Wilson case gage and shows how far the Enfield chamber shoulder is.
Below I use feeler gauges progressively thinner to setup the die until the case chambers on the shoulder.
Below is what happens when you set up the die as per the instructions.
Below from left to right, a new unfired case, a once fired case, and a fired three times that stretched. This was because the die was setup per the instructions and the shoulder pushed back to far.
Below variations in rim thickness.
Below its simple with your Enfield rifle as long as you don't exceed the speed of light.
The head clearance or the distance between the bolt face and the base of the case. This allows the case to stretch that amount and cause case head separations.
Below the case is held against the bolt face by the o-ring when fired and prevents the case from stretching.
After this fire forming the case will headspace on the case shoulder.
Below the fired Privi case on the left has a thicker rim and is larger in base diameter. The Greek case is smaller in diameter and has a thinner rim.
Below is a fired case in a Wilson case gage and shows how far the Enfield chamber shoulder is.
Below I use feeler gauges progressively thinner to setup the die until the case chambers on the shoulder.
Below is what happens when you set up the die as per the instructions.
Below from left to right, a new unfired case, a once fired case, and a fired three times that stretched. This was because the die was setup per the instructions and the shoulder pushed back to far.
Below variations in rim thickness.
Below its simple with your Enfield rifle as long as you don't exceed the speed of light.
This is a really well done review of the issues and is quite consistent with another well done resource found at (Click on this LINK).
However both come up short IMO in that each relies on the mistaken belief that it is Okay/ normal for a cartridge to stretch almost to the breaking point at the area marked below, if their is any amount of a gap between the base of the case and the face of the bolt - that is if the headspace gap exceeds zero. That is crazy! If the headspace gap is zero, you couldn't raise, or close the bolt. Consider the case of that other really common round we all know called 357 magnum. If the back end of the rim was pressed so firmly against the the corresponding surface of the frame - with zero clearance - the cylinder wouldn't be able to rotate! And if a revolver case failed at the stress point shown and ended-up TIGHT against the area where the back of the rim meets the frame, you wouldn't be able to rotate the cylinder after the first shot! The reason this doesn't happen in a 357 magnum revolver (or 30-30, 225 Winchester, 7.62x54R in other action types) is because these don't fail in a way that reduces the headspace gap to zero.
See this illustration:
All guns need a small headspacing gap - both before and after firing - to function properly.
However both come up short IMO in that each relies on the mistaken belief that it is Okay/ normal for a cartridge to stretch almost to the breaking point at the area marked below, if their is any amount of a gap between the base of the case and the face of the bolt - that is if the headspace gap exceeds zero. That is crazy! If the headspace gap is zero, you couldn't raise, or close the bolt. Consider the case of that other really common round we all know called 357 magnum. If the back end of the rim was pressed so firmly against the the corresponding surface of the frame - with zero clearance - the cylinder wouldn't be able to rotate! And if a revolver case failed at the stress point shown and ended-up TIGHT against the area where the back of the rim meets the frame, you wouldn't be able to rotate the cylinder after the first shot! The reason this doesn't happen in a 357 magnum revolver (or 30-30, 225 Winchester, 7.62x54R in other action types) is because these don't fail in a way that reduces the headspace gap to zero.
See this illustration:
All guns need a small headspacing gap - both before and after firing - to function properly.
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Prvi brass definitely lasts the longest on full house loads, and seems to keep neck tension the longest. I have had decent luck with f.c. and rem brass too.
Winchester sucks. Won't keep neck tension no matter what I do, even if I anneal it. Worka okay with my .314 leads. .311 jacketed aren't tight enough.
S&b alway has good neck tension, but even with tight head space, they come apart after the rim after a few firings
Winchester sucks. Won't keep neck tension no matter what I do, even if I anneal it. Worka okay with my .314 leads. .311 jacketed aren't tight enough.
S&b alway has good neck tension, but even with tight head space, they come apart after the rim after a few firings
bigedp51's excellent photos clearly illustrate the expansion ring and the incipient separation ring. Note that these are not in the same place, and that the incipient separation is not occurring at the transition point from solid head to sidewall.
You are so right there. People are really stuck on the idea that when you get those nasty shinny expansion rings after one or two firing it says that there is something wrong with their gun.
The good news is there's nothing wrong with your gun, its your brass .... stupid! Otherwise, how is it that I fire about 15-16 Herters cases in a cross section of four guns and none of the Herters brass develop expansion ring problems. And how is it that, when I run the same test with the same number of mixed commercial brass - they all develop shinny expansion rings after three firings - and most showed problems after two firings as in the photos below?
What are reality-deniers thinking is going one here? Were all four of my test guns functioning properly while I shot the Herters brass reloads and then the headspacing on all four test guns went South right after - just when I switched to mixed commercial brass? Geeeezzz ...
Here, once again, are the links to photos after a total of just two firings. (click on the blue links).
All Brass together, Herters Brass 1, Herters Brass 2, Mixed Brass 1, Mixed Brass 2
I believe that what's really happening is that, on firing, the Herters brass TEMPORARILY stretches lengthwise (axially) - to briefly close the tiny necessary headspacing gap and then it springs back again - as it is supposed to. This almost instantaneous spring back restores most of that tiny but necessary gap - without opening-up an internal wound at the expansion ring area. It does this because it has enough internal web to spread the temporary stretching forces over a greater area.
The mixed commercial brass is all "fruit of the same tree" - having been produced cheaply without enough brass in the area where the web should be. When it is stretched, the case gives-up internally at one point and doesn't fully rebound to restore the small, but necessary headspace gap. The next firing further stresses this already-damaged area. You know the rest of the story.
Again the good news is that - as Rowan and Bloke on the Range say (at 6 minutes and 52 seconds) "unless you're getting light primer strikes or primers backing-out, there's nothing wrong with your gun" (Click on LINK).
The good news is there's nothing wrong with your gun, its your brass .... stupid! Otherwise, how is it that I fire about 15-16 Herters cases in a cross section of four guns and none of the Herters brass develop expansion ring problems. And how is it that, when I run the same test with the same number of mixed commercial brass - they all develop shinny expansion rings after three firings - and most showed problems after two firings as in the photos below?
What are reality-deniers thinking is going one here? Were all four of my test guns functioning properly while I shot the Herters brass reloads and then the headspacing on all four test guns went South right after - just when I switched to mixed commercial brass? Geeeezzz ...
Here, once again, are the links to photos after a total of just two firings. (click on the blue links).
All Brass together, Herters Brass 1, Herters Brass 2, Mixed Brass 1, Mixed Brass 2
I believe that what's really happening is that, on firing, the Herters brass TEMPORARILY stretches lengthwise (axially) - to briefly close the tiny necessary headspacing gap and then it springs back again - as it is supposed to. This almost instantaneous spring back restores most of that tiny but necessary gap - without opening-up an internal wound at the expansion ring area. It does this because it has enough internal web to spread the temporary stretching forces over a greater area.
The mixed commercial brass is all "fruit of the same tree" - having been produced cheaply without enough brass in the area where the web should be. When it is stretched, the case gives-up internally at one point and doesn't fully rebound to restore the small, but necessary headspace gap. The next firing further stresses this already-damaged area. You know the rest of the story.
Again the good news is that - as Rowan and Bloke on the Range say (at 6 minutes and 52 seconds) "unless you're getting light primer strikes or primers backing-out, there's nothing wrong with your gun" (Click on LINK).
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I have over half a dozen guns that shoot 303 British including several semis so - while I have a set of Lee Collet dies - I don't use them.
I prefer the flexibility that the ammo I load can get along with any of my 303 British guns. I'm not a retired person, unlike so many of you and really don't have the time to keep track of which ammo can fit which 303 British gun. If you avoid using fussy brass cases - that insist on being neck sized and have to be matched to that particular gun things are a lot handier.
Just today I went to the range, in the rain, with three 303s - an Ellwood Epps custom No4 Mk1*, my Dad's 1918 BSA MkIII* and a deluxe 555 Mohawk - and ONE lot of 303 British reloaded ammo. Using brass that can be FL sized without crapping out makes life a lot better - IMO
I've done half a dozen FL reloadings of my Herters brass and the loaded rounds in my shooting box look like brand new factory ammo - with no signs of any expansion rings or any of that nonsense. I like that.
I prefer the flexibility that the ammo I load can get along with any of my 303 British guns. I'm not a retired person, unlike so many of you and really don't have the time to keep track of which ammo can fit which 303 British gun. If you avoid using fussy brass cases - that insist on being neck sized and have to be matched to that particular gun things are a lot handier.
Just today I went to the range, in the rain, with three 303s - an Ellwood Epps custom No4 Mk1*, my Dad's 1918 BSA MkIII* and a deluxe 555 Mohawk - and ONE lot of 303 British reloaded ammo. Using brass that can be FL sized without crapping out makes life a lot better - IMO
I've done half a dozen FL reloadings of my Herters brass and the loaded rounds in my shooting box look like brand new factory ammo - with no signs of any expansion rings or any of that nonsense. I like that.
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Here are some pictures of my Herters brass. I bought this off an auction site as “once fired” – but the history from before I got the stuff is unknown. The brass would be at least 30 years old and could have been fired many times before I got it. Since obtaining this stuff, I have fired it at least six times – using a cross section of at least 5 guns – Three L-E pattern guns and two (or maybe three) 555 Mohawk semi autos. The loads were all jacketed, full power loads – some using steel core projectiles scavenged from 7.62x54R surplus ammo.
After at least six firings I have had ZERO case failures, split necks etc. The pictures show that none exhibits even the first signs of expansion rings. These aren’t babied guns that have been subjected to multiple bolt head changes to get the headspacing just right etc. Just a half dozen honest, run-of-the-mill used Lee-Enfields, Mohawks etc. No fruity treatments with o-rings here – or diddling around with that pus*y stuff of trying to match the brass to “just this gun” – and getting the cases to headspace on the shoulder. We are talking about full length sizing each time – just like the big boys do.
The few dimples on the sides of the case are typically where the brass was thrown violently from the autoloaders – and the case impacted on some hard surface. These are as fired but have been cleaned by tumbling.
The point is stop blaming your gun and its “headspacing”, if you get expansion rings and head separations. Your problem is you are using junk North American commercial brass – where the maker cheaped-out and left-out the NECESSSARY internal web – when case was made.
After at least six firings I have had ZERO case failures, split necks etc. The pictures show that none exhibits even the first signs of expansion rings. These aren’t babied guns that have been subjected to multiple bolt head changes to get the headspacing just right etc. Just a half dozen honest, run-of-the-mill used Lee-Enfields, Mohawks etc. No fruity treatments with o-rings here – or diddling around with that pus*y stuff of trying to match the brass to “just this gun” – and getting the cases to headspace on the shoulder. We are talking about full length sizing each time – just like the big boys do.
The few dimples on the sides of the case are typically where the brass was thrown violently from the autoloaders – and the case impacted on some hard surface. These are as fired but have been cleaned by tumbling.
The point is stop blaming your gun and its “headspacing”, if you get expansion rings and head separations. Your problem is you are using junk North American commercial brass – where the maker cheaped-out and left-out the NECESSSARY internal web – when case was made.
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Still stuck on the web thing... Given that the incipient separation occurs ahead of the web, one could easily argue that provision of a web solves one problem and creates another. Btw - Have you measured the OD of a virgin Herters case at the base and compared it to a fired case, or a virgin North American case?
What other problem does having a web create? None of my cases have any indication of any head separation. I suppose that a properly designed case has the web extending forward into a progressively thinner wall - as one moves forward from the web to the neck. A good case design has no abrupt changes in the wall thickness, to focus the forces in one area. For example, 8mm Mauser, 308, 7.62x54R, 243, er ... and pretty well every other modern metallic centrefire cartridge except US commercial 303 British.
As for measuring a virgin Herters case, or a virgin US commercial case, if this means a "new, unfired" case of either type, I have no ide where I would get a new, unfired Herters 303 British case - or an unfired US commercial 303 British case, for that matter. Others have done this kind of measurement with PPU versus some brand of US commercial 303 British brass and - from what I have read - the PPU has a significantly larger base diameter than a the US made brass. Since PPU cases also seem to weight more than US Commercial 303 British brass, I hope that PPU brass is similar - in all important respects - to the old Herters stuff I've tested - but I don't know that for a fact.
Most people say that - 30 years ago - Herters was a private brander of products made by others. For all I know, the Herters stuff I possess now may have been made FOR Herters BY PRVI / PPU - or some predecessor company of PPU. It would be great if the modern PPU 303 British brass is effectively the same stuff as my Herters brass - through such a connection.
As of a week ago, I have got rid of all but one of my US commercial 303 brass cases. I plan to buy some brand new PPU stuff to replace this. I hope it works out. Stay tuned.
I'm also planning to section a Herters case, an HXP case and my last US commercial case of 303 British. I hope post pictures of what I find in a few days
As for measuring a virgin Herters case, or a virgin US commercial case, if this means a "new, unfired" case of either type, I have no ide where I would get a new, unfired Herters 303 British case - or an unfired US commercial 303 British case, for that matter. Others have done this kind of measurement with PPU versus some brand of US commercial 303 British brass and - from what I have read - the PPU has a significantly larger base diameter than a the US made brass. Since PPU cases also seem to weight more than US Commercial 303 British brass, I hope that PPU brass is similar - in all important respects - to the old Herters stuff I've tested - but I don't know that for a fact.
Most people say that - 30 years ago - Herters was a private brander of products made by others. For all I know, the Herters stuff I possess now may have been made FOR Herters BY PRVI / PPU - or some predecessor company of PPU. It would be great if the modern PPU 303 British brass is effectively the same stuff as my Herters brass - through such a connection.
As of a week ago, I have got rid of all but one of my US commercial 303 brass cases. I plan to buy some brand new PPU stuff to replace this. I hope it works out. Stay tuned.
I'm also planning to section a Herters case, an HXP case and my last US commercial case of 303 British. I hope post pictures of what I find in a few days
The old Herter's company was an interesting one. Some of their advertising bordered on snake oil purple prose. I suspect that the cases that are working so well for you were sourced in Scandinavia, probably decades ago. You are fortunate to have a good supply of them. Getting more would be catch as catch can.
It is my understanding that some of the best .303 ammunition - and brass - was that made by Defense Industries (DI headstamp, CIL) during WW2.
It is my understanding that some of the best .303 ammunition - and brass - was that made by Defense Industries (DI headstamp, CIL) during WW2.
Has anyone in this thread had any personal experience using PRVI Partizan/ PPU 3030 British brass - and can tells us how this stuff bears-up?
I'm surprised no one so far has provided any info from their own experience. From what I can tell, there are only two types of new virgin 303 British brass sold in Canada at the moment - Hornady and PPU.
Of these, I have identified at least three major sources who have PPU 303 British brass available for sale - right now - and only one vendor carrying the Hornady stuff.
I have also found one vendor with a listing of having loaded PPU 303 British ammo for sale. That vendor seems to have a listing for boxes of 20 and a bulk pack of 100 rounds of PPU (soft points, I think). So why aren't people buying this stuff and trying it? Are you all collectively just having too much "fun", nursing your junk commercial US brass to work - using all these crazy extremes measures. To me, that's weird.
Personally, I reload to shoot - whereas I'm getting the impression that most of the posters here shoot to reload - and it seems like some "get off" on the challenge of getting junk brass to survive - or casting so-so bullets - for its own sake. I really don't see why people compromise in these areas, when they don't have to. Then again, I don't know why people do crossword puzzles, either. It seems to come down people trying to creating unnecessary, artificial challenges for themselves (which to me seems pretty sad).
I'm WAY more pragmatic. I say, get decent brass that won't constantly give you grief. Take apart 54R ammo to have unlimited supply of projectiles and powder. Full length resize brass - so you don't have to diddle around with separate ammo for each gun - and then just go to the range and have some fun ... which is what I'm doing, right now. ...
I'm surprised no one so far has provided any info from their own experience. From what I can tell, there are only two types of new virgin 303 British brass sold in Canada at the moment - Hornady and PPU.
Of these, I have identified at least three major sources who have PPU 303 British brass available for sale - right now - and only one vendor carrying the Hornady stuff.
I have also found one vendor with a listing of having loaded PPU 303 British ammo for sale. That vendor seems to have a listing for boxes of 20 and a bulk pack of 100 rounds of PPU (soft points, I think). So why aren't people buying this stuff and trying it? Are you all collectively just having too much "fun", nursing your junk commercial US brass to work - using all these crazy extremes measures. To me, that's weird.
Personally, I reload to shoot - whereas I'm getting the impression that most of the posters here shoot to reload - and it seems like some "get off" on the challenge of getting junk brass to survive - or casting so-so bullets - for its own sake. I really don't see why people compromise in these areas, when they don't have to. Then again, I don't know why people do crossword puzzles, either. It seems to come down people trying to creating unnecessary, artificial challenges for themselves (which to me seems pretty sad).
I'm WAY more pragmatic. I say, get decent brass that won't constantly give you grief. Take apart 54R ammo to have unlimited supply of projectiles and powder. Full length resize brass - so you don't have to diddle around with separate ammo for each gun - and then just go to the range and have some fun ... which is what I'm doing, right now. ...
Well - Your old Herters brass came from Higginsons years ago, and is of Scandinavian origin (Metallverken?). I had some, didnt particularly like it as 50% of the cases did not have a relief cut ahead of the rim, and fed poorly in my P-14s. Cant comment on the longevity, as I gave it away.
The PPU comes from the former Yugoslavia. It became more available after the wall fell, and moreso available these days. The ammo is budget grade, nothing more.
I've had various calibers over the years, including 303. It is thicker than most 303 brass, but that may be its only attribute. Poorly drilled flash holes (undersize), case runout, and varying neck ID/wall thickness are common faults that I have encountered. I have not tested it for longevity, as I have a large stash of Dominion and Imperial brass that I prefer to use.
Let us know how your PPU adventure goes. If you have an opportunity, pick up some of the older Remington brass, you may be pleasantly surprised.
BTW - What kind of groups are you getting with the pulled Russian pills? Are they copper clad steel jacket?
The PPU comes from the former Yugoslavia. It became more available after the wall fell, and moreso available these days. The ammo is budget grade, nothing more.
I've had various calibers over the years, including 303. It is thicker than most 303 brass, but that may be its only attribute. Poorly drilled flash holes (undersize), case runout, and varying neck ID/wall thickness are common faults that I have encountered. I have not tested it for longevity, as I have a large stash of Dominion and Imperial brass that I prefer to use.
Let us know how your PPU adventure goes. If you have an opportunity, pick up some of the older Remington brass, you may be pleasantly surprised.
BTW - What kind of groups are you getting with the pulled Russian pills? Are they copper clad steel jacket?
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