Is Herters 303 British brass better than the other common types of boxer 303 brass?

[Potashminer]

Steelgray - reading above - is apparent to me that you think that reloading 303 British was important to the designers - it was not, as I understand. To be chambered, fired and extracted once, I think were their criteria - and make like 100 million or 200 million (500 million?) rounds to do that. I do not think original designers cared much about our struggles in 2022 to reload those cases - was not what they were asked to design - they, and their bosses, had a war to win, so cost of production would have been pretty significant as well, I think. I can not imagine how many hundreds or thousands of pounds of brass would have been used to produce that "web", that did not do a thing for the original requirement.

I agree that modern makers might overcome some deficiencies for re-loaders - my experience is that PPU seems to about get there. As well as the user learning how 303 British and other rimmed cartridges are not the same as "rim less" cartridges, for head spacing, fire forming and reloading them. I do own a 303 British separated cartridge removal tool - is alleged to have been more or less common issue in WWI - so is apparent to me that old days manufacture, despite best efforts or not - still left the soldier of the day having to deal with a separated case head. And there was a solution for that, then.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

Do I need to purchase a 303 broken shell extractor?

 

[Hmatt]

LOL

First off, 303 Brit cases absolutely ARE available, both used and new. Used ones can be had for a reasonable price. New ones are a bit spendy.

IF 303 Brit ammo could be found for $35 a box, that would be the best price in the entire country by a long way. Most factory 303 ammo is running $3 to $4 a round. So a box will be in the $60 to $80 range.

I’ve picked up all my .303 for less than $2/round in the last year. So I agree with you. People just have to be vigilante and not pay the horrible prices people are wanting. I refuse to pay more than $50/box.

 

[Janeau]

If you start with good brass on know number of firing( once lol ) , inspect them after each firing, you should be able to see the first sign, usually a very fine line around or part of the case head. Time to toss them. If you have used brass of unknown number or firing, might not be a bad idea to get the tool.. But I never needed one. It is quite obvious when they are done. Try not to give up to ‘one last firing ´´ since it might get you in trouble…

 

[Potashminer]

Do I need to purchase a 303 broken shell extractor?

Not likely - unless you are in circumstances where you have experienced a case head separation and is vital to you to get your rifle back in action, or die. Is many other ways that have been used to get the case out of the chamber when the case head separates - without wrecking or scarring the chamber - that tool seems to work virtually always, though. Up to you if having that thing is necessary or not.

I have used this one at a target range, on a shooting table, and I take it with me when I take 303 British to the range. Not sure how well that would work out in bush for hunting though - to first find it in pocket or back pack, then use it, etc. - maybe not be handy, nor appreciated, until you need one.

 

[Claven2]

If you full length size .303 brass every time, it's life will be short compared to modern rimless caliber rifle chamberings. These guns were made to feed dirty ammo, and you'r askign the brass to do a LOT if you resize it full length each time. Even if you anneal, you can't anneal near the case head.

Neck sizing or partial re-sizing are the way.

I have herters brass and it's good stuff. So is S&B and Privi. The american stuff is usable, but lasts less long.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

I’ve picked up all my .303 for less than $2/round in the last year. So I agree with you. People just have to be vigilante and not pay the horrible prices people are wanting. I refuse to pay more than $50/box.

The absolute cheapest I have seen in a while was $2.75 a round. The most I have seen was over $4 a round.

 

[aardvaark]

I reloaded the 303Br for a few years. And I had this same problem. I had the headspace checked by a qualified reputable gunsmith, and it was good. He said the problem is the bolt/breech design. The lugs are rear-locking on the bolt as opposed to front locking. So when the rifle fires the bolt “squishes” back to the rear lugs instead of the front lugs found in most current bolt actions. So with that in mind it’s easy to see how this would cause excessive case stretching. I never had any cases separate when cleaning, if this is happening I suspect the case was already stretched to its max and let go when aggressively cleaned. And it likely would have come apart when resizing which happened to me as well.

So I reloaded to lighter pressures and case life extended to 3-4 times per case instead of 1-2 with max loads. Accuracy is not always about max pressure, I had as good accuracy and often better with my reduced loads.

One way you can check this is by measuring the length of your case before and then again after firing. On a conventional front lug bolt it will be between 0-2 or 3 thou of an inch. On your British is is more likely in the neighbourhood of 5-15thou, depending on the charge you put in it. That stretch comes from the weakest most rearward area of the case. And it has to be trimmed off or your subsequent loads either will not chamber or they can cause extreme pressure cuz the case length is too long.

 

[steelgray]

Like I mentioned, 303 British cartridges fired in a Globco Mohawk or a P14 etc. also get that nasty shiny ring after a few firings and then eventually suffer head separation in exactly the same way as happens when 303 British is fired in any L-E. As such, your gunsmith is WRONG when he says that the problem is with the L-E's squishy action. Those guns (i.e., the Mohawk and the P14/P17) have different locking systems. Further, the cartridges in those guns DONT suffer that problem when they are in other calibers (i.e., a 7.62x54R Mohawk or a 30-06 P17). Ditto a L-E in 7.62x51 also doesn't develop head separation problems!

HENCE IT IS NOT THE L-E ACTION, it is an inherent defect in design of 303 British case - which lacks any web - internally - in the area where the failure always occurs.

I reloaded the 303Br for a few years. And I had this same problem. I had the headspace checked by a qualified reputable gunsmith, and it was good. He said the problem is the bolt/breech design. The lugs are rear-locking on the bolt as opposed to front locking. So when the rifle fires the bolt “squishes” back to the rear lugs instead of the front lugs found in most current bolt actions. So with that in mind it’s easy to see how this would cause excessive case stretching. I never had any cases separate when cleaning, if this is happening I suspect the case was already stretched to its max and let go when aggressively cleaned. And it likely would have come apart when resizing which happened to me as well.

So I reloaded to lighter pressures and case life extended to 3-4 times per case instead of 1-2 with max loads. Accuracy is not always about max pressure, I had as good accuracy and often better with my reduced loads.

One way you can check this is by measuring the length of your case before and then again after firing. On a conventional front lug bolt it will be between 0-2 or 3 thou of an inch. On your British is is more likely in the neighbourhood of 5-15thou, depending on the charge you put in it. That stretch comes from the weakest most rearward area of the case. And it has to be trimmed off or your subsequent loads either will not chamber or they can cause extreme pressure cuz the case length is too long.

 

[tiriaq]

The shiny ring is where the solid case head transitions to the thinner sidewall. The fireforming can be easily seen.
Incipient separations occur where there is a frosted ring which results from case stretching. This can occur with any case rimmed or rimless in most any rifle and can be the result of excessive full length sizing followed by excessive fireforming, or from excessive headspace. The situation with .303 is aggravated because it is rimmed. Headspace can be excellent, but this has nothing to do with the fit of the case in the chamber. If fired .303 cases are treated as if they were rimless, and sized minimally, the risk of incipient separation is reduced significantly.

If you want .303 cases with a particularly gradual transition from the solid head to the sidewall, collect specimens of every make of .303 case you can find in sufficient quantity, and section some heads. Select the best makes and set them aside as your preferred stock. Even then, there will be an expansion ring. The only way to avoid an expansion ring is to have a chamber which is close to being a perfect fit on the unfired case. Then there will be no obvious expansion ring. This requires a minimum spec. chamber - which might not accept some cartridges.

 

[cosmic]

Following up on Tiriaq's post, if you have a LE with a commercial chamber (eg some sporters by Parker Hale, Churchill) you can easily see the benefit of the tight chamber. BTW - The O-ring trick works by preventing (hopefully) the case from going forward on first firing, and subsequently not rebounding - thus more equally distributing the axial strain on the case walls.
Oversize chambers can be problematic in two ways. The well known expansion at the neck is one, however, one should also consider the radial expansion at the base of the case. I believe this is also a major contributor to case weakness and separation, and can explain why some rifles seem to be really hard on brass.
If a fella follows all the prescriptions (o-ring, neck sizing, annealing, modest loads, decent brass) one can get as much life out of a case as a normal rimless cartridge like 308 - in my case 8 reloads and counting.

 

[22to45]

In the 90's I bought Herters 303 brass from Higginson. I think it is better than the US mfg cases. But as the others have said: the lee enfield was designed to function in the mud and chambers are a bit oversized. This makes a wonderful military rifle but does make them hard on brass, also, the actions are a bit stretchy, and that is hard on brass with heavy loads.

 

[mbogo3]

They stiil had some 5 years ago made in Sweden I have 100 or so.

 

[Raton57]

Does anybody have a Ruger chambered it 303 to compare case life compared to a Lee Enfield . Would maybe clear up a lot for the OP as to how slack military actions are.

 

[Hitzy]

Does anybody have a Ruger chambered it 303 to compare case life compared to a Lee Enfield . Would maybe clear up a lot for the OP as to how slack military actions are.

It's how you size the brass, I have a 1916 P14 with big sloppy chamber, neck size and no problems, headspace on the shoulder and the brass isn't stretching any more.
The other 303 I have is a PH Deluxe Mk3, again, no issues neck sizing.
Try FL sizing and yeah, case seperation maybe after a single size.

 

[catnip]

Does anybody have a Ruger chambered it 303 to compare case life compared to a Lee Enfield . Would maybe clear up a lot for the OP as to how slack military actions are.

It is interesting ,considering all the talk about the 303 case being an inferior design, that we have never heard of any of the EPPS improved cartridges having this problem.Most, if not all, of them used the 303 as a parent case ,and some for sure were loaded well over 303 factory specs. The p-14 was also his preferred action to convert if what I have read is correct.

 

[tiriaq]

Does anybody have a Ruger chambered it 303 to compare case life compared to a Lee Enfield . Would maybe clear up a lot for the OP as to how slack military actions are.

It is interesting ,considering all the talk about the 303 case being an inferior design, that we have never heard of any of the EPPS improved cartridges having this problem.Most, if not all, of them used the 303 as a parent case ,and some for sure were loaded well over 303 factory specs. The p-14 was also his preferred action to convert if what I have read is correct.

A P'14 is a very different action, compared with a Lee Enfield. So is a Ross. These are strong, stiff actions. I have a Ross Mk. II** target rifle. It will not accept a .303 case which has been fired in a LE and then FL sized. I had to make a die to reduce the diameter of the case down toward the rim. Cases fired in an unmodified Ross do not look like ones fired in a service rifle.
As far as that goes, a barrel chambered with a commercial reamer produces fired cases that don't look like ones from a LE. With a stiff action, minimum headspace and chamber, the reloading experience with .303 is the same as any other centerfire rifle cartridge. No quirks.

I was once given a couple of sandbags of IVI brass fired in issue No. 4 rifles. Inspecting them for incipient separations, the cull rate approached 20%.

 

[Andy]

I hate the tenancy of 303 British brass to develop that nasty shiny ring about 3/16 from the rim - then abrumptly die of head separation.

I've actually seen reloaded rounds suffer this kind of head separation as a result of nothing more stressful that a ride through my case tumbler!

Everybody tries to blame it one the gun - saying "you've got a headspacing problem", but I think most people actually realize that common 303 British brass is basically made to fail - because the head of the case transitions abruptly to a paper-thin sidewall, creating an obvious weak stressed area.

Cases of other calibers (i.e., medium pressure rounds like 308 Win, 8x57, etc.) have a meaningful web in this transition zone - which is obviously lacking in most 303 British cases.

Is Herters 303 British brass any better than the other common types of boxer brass? Does their design avoid creating this weak spot?

I've always thought that blaming headspace for 303 Brit casehead separations was a red herring, in fact headspace (The Great Satan) is blamed for many real and imagined problems. What I have believed is that VERY generous chambers (in Lee Enfields) and repeated F/L sizing is the culprit. I've never experienced a casehead separation with 303 Brit, but many have in Lee Enfields, and I have never heard of one in a P14 or Ruger#1 that are known to have tighter chambers.

The suggestion that much 303 brass has a "weak" web area is I think hearsay at this point. Section a variety of brass, some known to experience casehead separations and show those to be consistently thinner in that area, and I'll agree that it could be a contributing factor to casehead separations (thicker brass reducing that risk), but I still believe that generous chambers and F/L Sizing in Lee Enfields are the root causes.

 

[catnip]

A P'14 is a very different action, compared with a Lee Enfield. So is a Ross. These are strong, stiff actions. I have a Ross Mk. II** target rifle. It will not accept a .303 case which has been fired in a LE and then FL sized. I had to make a die to reduce the diameter of the case down toward the rim. Cases fired in an unmodified Ross do not look like ones fired in a service rifle.
As far as that goes, a barrel chambered with a commercial reamer produces fired cases that don't look like ones from a LE. With a stiff action, minimum headspace and chamber, the reloading experience with .303 is the same as any other centerfire rifle cartridge. No quirks.

I was once given a couple of sandbags of IVI brass fired in issue No. 4 rifles. Inspecting them for incipient separations, the cull rate approached 20%.

Sorry if I was not clear in my post, that is the point I was trying to make, the problem is not with the case or the design of the case. You put it very well, thank you.

 

[iron cat]

Does anybody have a Ruger chambered it 303 to compare case life compared to a Lee Enfield . Would maybe clear up a lot for the OP as to how slack military actions are.

Yup, post #18
It is not factory Ruger #1 but a #3 that Leeper built me.
Cat