Is Herters 303 British brass better than the other common types of boxer 303 brass?

[cosmic]

Having owned various 303 based rifles over the years, I can state the following.

1) Rosses that havent been "hogged out" have the tightest chambers and bores.
2) A close second are P-14s, particularly Winchesters, but others are tight as well. What is noticeable is how similar the chambers are - I have two rifles that I can neck size and shoot brass interchangeably.
3) Last are LE's which are all over the map, regardless of No. or Mark. The exception are sporters that have a commercial chamber/barrel.

I have made up a series of series of plug gages that I use to survey bore diameter, and a number of fired shells that are labelled by rifle. I have noted that there is quite a variance in chamber dimensions - I've found short and fat chambers vs long and skinny chambers.
As an aside, I have some once fired brass from a Ruger that wont chamber in a number of my 303's.
One cant make any conclusions based upon a sample size of one, perhaps others will chime in.

 

[diananike]

After looking at the shoulder moving a few mills forward on fired brass I bought a neck sizing die.
The Lee Enfield chambers are indeed cut to generous dimensions.
I am of the opinion that using a oring on the rim of a new shell also causes most of the stretching to occur further forward from the rim and decreases the stretch on the web. I only do this on the first firing of a new case.
neck sizing after that is about the best you can do with a sloppy chamber like that.
This method is the best way to get a few more shots out of your brass.
I was getting partial head separation on either the second or third shot when I didn’t use the oring initial stretch and only neck sizing.
Now I get about 4 firings.
That’s a long cry from other rifle brass where often the primer pocket swells out of spec before the case head splits.
I still experience case head splitting regularly when the brass fails. Usually just a small split and there doesn’t seem to be any chamber erosion from the gas.

 

[bdft]

It's interesting that you're only getting 4 shots out of a case. I get as much as 10 shots out of a case and have yet to experience a case head separation. Usually the neck or the shoulder splits. I sort brass to fit my Lee-Enfields and P14s and separate brass for the Martini Enfields and the Rosses. I have a Ross sporting rifle that won't take anything that has been shot in anything else. I anneal the neck and shoulder after a few shots. Makes it easier to push the shoulder back where it belongs and keep the neck tension right.

 

[steelgray]

I'm sure that oversized chambers (as opposed to head spacing issue) do contribute to head separation. This would be because when a round is touched off in an oversized chamber, it can expand farther than it would in a tighter chamber. Brass has been picked as the preferred metal for small arms ammunition cases because expands well under pressure and then rebounds back a bit to a smaller case diameter. This makes case extraction easier and avoids the dreaded stuck cases. However, that rapid expansion and contraction wouldn't occur evenly across the entire length of the cartridge case.

The head doesn't expand at all and the body of the case does.

In 303 British, the transition between the case head and case body is "abrupt" because inside the case lacks any web in this critical area. In other cartridges a web included - designed to spread this pressure more evenly, inside the case.

Obviously, the are where head separation occurs is exactly the area over the length of the case where the zone that expands and contracts on firing (the case body) meets the part that doesn't expand contract - namely the case head.

This uneven expansion and contraction in the two sections of the case, on firing, would certainly focus stress on the area when the two zones of the case meet. This differential - in the expansion and contraction - can, in some instances, be enough to cause head separation - even on first firing. That's why WW1 soldiers had to carry stuck case/ broken case extractors - even though no reloading was involved.

Further, if we take that fired case home we have a situation where it needs to be resized - and the most budged part of the case is going to be when the head meets the body (for the reasons I just mentioned). Then, when you resize, an extra amount of pressure is going to be applied - by the die - to put that bulge back into the right diameter and - guess what - that action makes a shinny ring when the die works extra hard to resize the case where the case head meets the case body.

Sure the case goes back to the right size but the shinny ring area gets thinner - and work hardened - with each firing and resizing.

People who shoot L-Es and lot come to think that that "shinny ring syndrome" - with the associated inevitability that the head will separate, sooner or later - is normal. NOPE, this a unique problem with 303 British - made many times worst in guns with oversized chambers.

The suggestion that this reflects head spacing problems is a 120-year-old myth that really, REALLY need be killed.

It's interesting that you're only getting 4 shots out of a case. I get as much as 10 shots out of a case and have yet to experience a case head separation. Usually the neck or the shoulder splits. I sort brass to fit my Lee-Enfields and P14s and separate brass for the Martini Enfields and the Rosses. I have a Ross sporting rifle that won't take anything that has been shot in anything else. I anneal the neck and shoulder after a few shots. Makes it easier to push the shoulder back where it belongs and keep the neck tension right.

 

[cosmic]

Steelgray - the phenomenon of case expansion is more complex than you portray. There are actually two case expansions that occur upon firing a rimmed cartridge, in this case a 303. One occurs immediately upon firing - the case is pushed forward and balloons. The amount it is pushed forward is determined by headspace/rim dimensions. The amount it balloons is determined by the size of the chamber.
As the case balloons, it is strained throughout. For the 303, that means substantial expansion on the neck area, and as you point out, radially as well. The expanded case tends to grip the chamber walls toward the front of the case. Subsequently, the pressure overcomes the inertia of the case and firing pin, and will attempt to force the case rearward. This will cause a very large, localized strain somewhere near the base of the case - often at the junction you describe. This is the most common cause for case failures in both rimmed and rimless cartridges.
If the case survives the initial balloon, then steps can be taken to avoid subsequent strain cycles. Neck sizing brass that is dedicated to the rifle addresses both expansions nicely, and mitigates any need for proper rim headspace. The O-ring trick for first firing limits forward expansion of the case, thus doing nothing with regard to ballooning, but does address the localized expansion at the base of the case as the case retreats rearward.
Complicated, eh?...

 

[Ganderite]

A common problem in the gun world is that shooters see a problem (does not matter what it is) and pick some well-known variable (does not matter what it is, but headspace and twist are two common variables picked on) and then blame the problem on that variable.

The Lee Enfield locking lugs are at the back of the bolt, rather than at the front as on a Mauser, Ross, P14, etc.) On firing, that long bolt compresses and moves the bolt face backwards. The case wall is stuck on the chamber, so the case stretches just forward of the case head. Full length sizing allows this to happen again. On the second, third or fourth firing the case head will come off.

The solution is well known. A rubber ring under the rim for the first shot will minimize stretching. Thereafter, neck size only (or back off the FL sizer so the shoulder is not pushed back). This will make the case headspace on the shoulder, reducing the case stretch IF THE POWER IS REDUCED A BIT).

I use military IVI brass (which was made to the commercial spec, not military). I use it in 2 #4s and a #1. I am on re-load 5 with no sign of a problem. All I do is neck size.

 

[tiriaq]

Take some fired .303 cases which have the frosted ring indicating incipient separation. Confirm with a little hook probe if desired.
Section the case heads cutting from the base to past the incipient separation zone. Observe where the internal ring is, relative to the solid head/sidewall transition.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

After looking at the shoulder moving a few mills forward on fired brass I bought a neck sizing die.

There is no reason a full length sizing die couldn't be adjusted to set back the shoulder a few thou so as to minimize case stretching.

I am of the opinion that using a oring on the rim of a new shell also causes most of the stretching to occur further forward from the rim and decreases the stretch on the web. I only do this on the first firing of a new case.

Another method that is simpler is to seat the bullet long so the case is held against the bolt face by the bullet pushing back from the lands.

 

[old303]

For those with multiple .303 rifles, it helps to keep brass segregated according to the rifle it goes in, so it's neck-size-only and back into the chamber it matches. Don't treat these heirloom battle rifles as if they were all the same caliber with interchangeable ammunition!

And another extra step is to run the hook probe into each previously-fired case and be sure it doesn't catch on the interior side wall back there.

 

[steelgray]

The last time I had a head separation event I thought that would be the end of my day's shooting because I had no stuck/ broken case extractor. I decided to just lightly chamber a new round into the stuck case - and then attempted extraction. To my surprise, the broken hull came out with the unfired round. Dumb luck maybe.

On the range, a broken case stuck in the chamber is just a nuisance (as noted, something that could shorten you day at the range).

In a real battlefield situation a broken case stuck in the chamber could cost you your life.

 

[Ganderite]

The last time I had a head separation event I thought that would be the end of my day's shooting because I had no stuck/ broken case extractor. I decided to just lightly chamber a new round into the stuck case - and then attempted extraction. To my surprise, the broken hull came out with the unfired round. Dumb luck maybe.

On the range, a broken case stuck in the chamber is just a nuisance (as noted, something that could shorten you day at the range).

In a real battlefield situation a broken case stuck in the chamber could cost you your life.

In a hunting situation, a head separation could end your day, if not your hunt.

I have removed many such shells over the years.

In the field, try chambering an empty case or a loaded round and see if that will pull out the shell. Don' pound the old case in. That would make it worse.

The trick that works 95% of the time is a brass brush. Push it into the case/neck and then pull back.

In a real disaster situation, I slather some epoxy on an empty case and stick it into the stuck case. When the epoxy is hard, i use the rifle extractor on the good case to pull the mess out.

 

[tiriaq]

When .303 cases separate, the front end that is left behind is almost invariably not stuck fast.
The case breaks, but it is not a situation where the case sticks and the head is torn off.

 

[Eagleye]

I have a 1910 Ross that has been sporterized. When I got it, it was a bit of a "pig in a poke"
It needed a thorough cleaning, and even after that, the barrel inside looked like a stovepipe.
I shot it a bit, but found I was lucky to stay inside 4" at 100M.

Ordered up a McGowen barrel and had Dave Jennings fit it and chamber it. He also reblued all
the metalwork. It now works very well indeed. I never have any separation issues with any brass
I have used in it. I get neck splits after 10 or so reloads, but NO case separations. I use loads
recommended for the 308W on a regular basis, with stellar accuracy, and no issues. Dave.

 

[Snider shooter]

I have removed a few cases with the rear broken off from my own or someone else’s rifles. I remove the bolt and put a cleaning rod up through from the rear. Once it’s sticking out the muzzle I screw a tight fitting bore brush on and pull back through. The brush will grab the case mouth and pull it out. Brush usually needs to be over size.

 

[meatsticks]

I have no experience with reloading .303 British first off.
Second the components availability in Canada is slim and just slightly above none available.
Buy factory and enjoy it .
Just my observations and yes, I know ammo is North of $35.00 for 20 rounds.
Rob

Last .303 I saw on the shelf was $70 for the cheap stuff.

 

[Raton57]

Hunted with a guy who never threw a case away until it separated. Usually shooting at a deer which he missed with the first shot almost always. He carried a hunk of cleaning rod and a easy out to get them out was simple procedure but not necessary

 

[steelgray]

Since nobody was able to definitively tell me whether they had direct experience as to whether Herters 303 British brass is better than the other stuff, I did a bit of an unscientific test today.

A while back I had bought two bags of 303 British “once fired” brass. One bag was mixed and included cases marked R-P, Imperial, FC, Gevelot, HXP and WW Super. Most were R-P. The second bag was all Herters brass. None of the cases had that shinny ring near the head and all were cleaned and resized as received. The mixed brass was reloaded to about 5% under max using a really old bunch of Speer 150 grain bullets – which I think were .308s. The powder I used was recovered 54R power for some of the mixed brass loads and 44.5 grains of H414 for others. The Herters brass was loaded with 44.5 grains of H414, pushing 150 grain Hornaday 308 projectiles.

These reloaded rounds were shot through a cross section of guns – a No.1 MkIII*, a 1949 (F) No. 4 Mk 1/2, an Ellwood Epps custom one-piece stocked no. 4 Mk 1 and a Deluxe 555 Globco Mohawk in 303 British.

Since I was not necessarily trying to be scientific - but rather was just out to have some fun – I was pretty random on which guns shot which cartridges, but suffice it to say that all four guns shot cartridges from both the mixed lot reloads and the Herters brass reloads. As far as I'm concerned, the results are definitive, but the pictures are included here so you can zoom in and make up your own mind.

After firing 15-16 mixed brass cases about 6-7 cases definitely exhibited that nasty shinny ring. Out of the 15-16 Herters brass cases, zero cases showed those shinny rings. Yes, the Herters cases are probably a bit dirtier, because they all were loaded with H414 but no biggy there. All the cases that were shot from the 555 Globco Mohawk ejected properly and were thrown about the same distance from the gun; so I’d say all loads were about equally hot. No, I didn’t chrono everything – like I said I was really just out to have fun.

My conclusion is that the Herters brass is not prone to develop those nasty shinny rings the after first couple times that the cases are reloaded (noting that this was already “once fired brass”). If I had the time, I’d section a case from each of the two lots – to see if – as I suspect – the Herters brass a has a real web that the commercial brass lacks. I’m not a retired guy, so I doubt I’ll get around to that for a while.

You be the judge. Links to pictures are provided. (click on the blue links).

All Brass together, Herters Brass 1, Herters Brass 2, Mixed Brass 1, Mixed Brass 2

BTW I used recovered primers and so some show a bit of leakage. No biggy there either

 

[enefgee]

Almost anything is better than US commercial brass.

 

[Andy]

"Sectioning" doesn't have to be carefully cutting a case perfectly in half its entire length. If it's only the base you're interested in, just use a grinder like was done here:



You only grind enough so that the area of interest is exposed and take measurements and a photo at 90 degrees to it. There will be a burr that requires dressing, but it all takes maybe 10 mins per case.

 

[cosmic]

It was impossible to comment on your Herters brass before because the vintage was unknown.
Your Herters brass is the older stuff. I recall getting some from Higginsons years ago, likely made in Scandinavia. It is a slightly different color (alloy) than other types of brass, and thicker. Another consideration is the rim thickness - North American brass is often undersize, somewhere around 5 thou. All these matters contribute to case longevity.
If you've got a scale, suggest you weigh some of the brass types for comparison. Finally, you should now be aware that the shiney ring is not necessarily indicative of pending case failure. Cases most often fail about a half inch above the base due to very localized axial strain. Carry on!