Is Herters 303 British brass better than the other common types of boxer 303 brass?

[steelgray]

I’d say I agree with you on all your comments.

Your are almost certainly right about my Herters’ Brass being “older stuff from Higginsons from years ago, likely made in Scandinavia”. I remember when the place was – at that time – called “Ammomart” and was run by Tom Higgins and himself. Their ads used to feature new European boxer brass and I think they said made by Norma. The ad actually told you that it was stronger than the normal stuff – and you were recommended to reduce your powder load by 5%; to adjust for the fact that the brass itself was thicker.

I have weighed a sample of mixed commercial and Herters brass and found that five case of the mixed commercial stuff weights 882.2 grains and 5 of the Herters case weights 911.8 grains (in both cases, with the fired primer still in-place). That is, on average the Herters stuff is over 3% heavier.

Your comment that 303 British cases fail “above the base due to very localized axial strain” aligns with what I said about how the head of the case doesn’t expand much – if at all – on firing; whereas the body of the case does – beginning at a transition point where the head and the body meet.

If there is no appreciable web in this transition zone all the pressure focusses on this transition zone – presumably yielding very localized axial strain. If commercial case manufacturers didn’t cheap-out and leave off the web, the axial strain would be spread over a broader area – with correspondingly less effect on case life.

It was impossible to comment on your Herters brass before because the vintage was unknown.
Your Herters brass is the older stuff. I recall getting some from Higginsons years ago, likely made in Scandinavia. It is a slightly different color (alloy) than other types of brass, and thicker. Another consideration is the rim thickness - North American brass is often undersize, somewhere around 5 thou. All these matters contribute to case longevity.
If you've got a scale, suggest you weigh some of the brass types for comparison. Finally, you should now be aware that the shiney ring is not necessary indicative of pending case failure. Cases most often fail about a half inch above the base due to very localized axial strain. Carry on!

 

[cosmic]

Not to be pedantic, but the localized axial strain/failure generally occurs away from the web junction. So if the web junction survives the radial strain on first firing (and it generally does), then one has to mitigate the potential for axial strain. I believe the location for localized strain/failure is where the case transitions from being held by the case walls due to friction, to where it is free to expand rearward. This probably has something to do with chamber geometry.
Anyway, your study efforts are appreciated. It would be interesting to know how the Herters brass holds up to multiple (destructive) firings compared to the commercial fodder. As an example, I have some older blue bag Winchester that has displayed case failures at the neck due to radial strain, on first firing, in tight chambers. I've since annealed the remaining brass and it survived the first firing, and beyond. Its obvious that the subject brass came off the line in a work hardened state. As I understand it, brass is annealed a few times through the forming process, perhaps the last annealing was substandard.
On the subject of lack of web radius, I'm not sure that its a purposeful shortcut/oversight by the manufacturers. Brass is shaped/extruded from billet or tube - I doubt there is much opportunity to reinforce the the web junction directly in the process. Obviously, brass formed with thicker walls with display greater strength at the junction.

 

[trapoholic]

I’d say I agree with you on all your comments.

Your are almost certainly right about my Herters’ Brass being “older stuff from Higginsons from years ago, likely made in Scandinavia”. I remember when the place was – at that time – called “Ammomart” and was run by Tom Higgins and himself. Their ads used to feature new European boxer brass and I think they said made by Norma. The ad actually told you that it was stronger than the normal stuff – and you were recommended to reduce your powder load by 5%; to adjust for the fact that the brass itself was thicker.

I have weighed a sample of mixed commercial and Herters brass and found that five case of the mixed commercial stuff weights 882.2 grains and 5 of the Herters case weights 911.8 grains (in both cases, with the fired primer still in-place). That is, on average the Herters stuff is over 3% heavier.

Your comment that 303 British cases fail “above the base due to very localized axial strain” aligns with what I said about how the head of the case doesn’t expand much – if at all – on firing; whereas the body of the case does – beginning at a transition point where the head and the body meet.

If there is no appreciable web in this transition zone all the pressure focusses on this transition zone – presumably yielding very localized axial strain. If commercial case manufacturers didn’t cheap-out and leave off the web, the axial strain would be spread over a broader area – with correspondingly less effect on case life.

Steelgray and whoever's thread this is sorry to highjack. Steelgray empty your inbox I'm trying to message you.

To the op, Remington 303 brass takes allot of loadings. I load for one of the older fellas in my gang his Remington brass is on it's 6th loading now with no signs of slowing down. Pockets are right, head rings aren't shining. It's good stuff.

 

[steelgray]

More testing results are now in - and they are definitive.

After three known firings all of my North American commercial brass shows those nasty shinny rings. After the same three known firings none of the Herters brass show any signs of the shinny ring problem ... not one ... ZERO.

This has nothing to do with with headspacing because I get his result regardless of which of the four guns I used for the shooting. The myth that those shinny rings are a sign of headspacing problems is plainly old school nonsense. Those shinny rings are sign that the brass you are using is junk.

Since nobody was able to definitively tell me whether they had direct experience as to whether Herters 303 British brass is better than the other stuff, I did a bit of an unscientific test today.

A while back I had bought two bags of 303 British “once fired” brass. One bag was mixed and included cases marked R-P, Imperial, FC, Gevelot, HXP and WW Super. Most were R-P. The second bag was all Herters brass. None of the cases had that shinny ring near the head and all were cleaned and resized as received. The mixed brass was reloaded to about 5% under max using a really old bunch of Speer 150 grain bullets – which I think were .308s. The powder I used was recovered 54R power for some of the mixed brass loads and 44.5 grains of H414 for others. The Herters brass was loaded with 44.5 grains of H414, pushing 150 grain Hornaday 308 projectiles.

These reloaded rounds were shot through a cross section of guns – a No.1 MkIII*, a 1949 (F) No. 4 Mk 1/2, an Ellwood Epps custom one-piece stocked no. 4 Mk 1 and a Deluxe 555 Globco Mohawk in 303 British.

Since I was not necessarily trying to be scientific - but rather was just out to have some fun – I was pretty random on which guns shot which cartridges, but suffice it to say that all four guns shot cartridges from both the mixed lot reloads and the Herters brass reloads. As far as I'm concerned, the results are definitive, but the pictures are included here so you can zoom in and make up your own mind.

After firing 15-16 mixed brass cases about 6-7 cases definitely exhibited that nasty shinny ring. Out of the 15-16 Herters brass cases, zero cases showed those shinny rings. Yes, the Herters cases are probably a bit dirtier, because they all were loaded with H414 but no biggy there. All the cases that were shot from the 555 Globco Mohawk ejected properly and were thrown about the same distance from the gun; so I’d say all loads were about equally hot. No, I didn’t chrono everything – like I said I was really just out to have fun.

My conclusion is that the Herters brass is not prone to develop those nasty shinny rings the after first couple times that the cases are reloaded (noting that this was already “once fired brass”). If I had the time, I’d section a case from each of the two lots – to see if – as I suspect – the Herters brass a has a real web that the commercial brass lacks. I’m not a retired guy, so I doubt I’ll get around to that for a while.

You be the judge. Links to pictures are provided. (click on the blue links).

All Brass together, Herters Brass 1, Herters Brass 2, Mixed Brass 1, Mixed Brass 2

BTW I used recovered primers and so some show a bit of leakage. No biggy there either

 

[tiriaq]

Are the nasty shiny rings to which you are referring expansion rings or incipient separation rings?

 

[steelgray]

They are the types shown in the photos (as shown here after two firings)

All Brass together, Herters Brass 1, Herters Brass 2, Mixed Brass 1, Mixed Brass 2

What name do you use to refer these? No foul language. please.

Are the nasty shiny rings to which you are referring expansion rings or incipient separation rings?

 

[Hitzy]

Expansion rings, I also count 2 failed primers in there.... Winchester I'm guessing?

 

[tiriaq]

Look like expansion rings.

Measure the diameter of the Herter's, and the other makes of cases. It may be that the Herter's are a bit larger in diameter toward the head. Their expansion rings are slight and not particularly noticeable in the photo. Might be interesting to weigh them. If they are heavier, it would suggest thicker case walls.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

Where would one find Herter's cases?

 

[steelgray]

I guess you don't read too well. My post said:

"BTW I used recovered primers and so some show a bit of leakage. No biggy there either"

Expansion rings, I also count 2 failed primers in there.... Winchester I'm guessing?

 

[tiriaq]

Where would one find Herter's cases?

The Herter's business has operated for years. The current business is a successor. The brass Herter's has sold has been from different sources. This good stuff is not current. It was made in Scandinavia.

 

[steelgray]

Please read my post. I did weight them. The Herters cases are more than 3% heavier.

As for the other posters question of where you get Herter cases I don't know. I got a bag of once fired ones from Switzers auctions. Another poster reminded me that Higginson powders (then "ammomart") probably carried these - back when Tom H. was still the owner, (again please read my posts).

If I was looking for NEW 303 British brass that isn't JUNK, I'd try out the PPU stuff that several retailers carry. Prvi brass is good and typically pretty heavy. I haven't tried their 303 Br. stuff but - since its European - its got to be better than the R-P, FC, Imperial, Frontier, Hornady, etc. junk.

My guess is that all the North American commercial brass is junk because it is all "fruit of the same tree". Specifically, either one common sub-supplier makes branded brass for all these "manufactures" or - if R-P, FC, Imperial, Frontier Hornady, etc. actually make the brass sold under their names - then, probably there was/ is just one machine tool/ die and mandrel vendor that supplies them all with the same case forming equipment - which has been designed to produce garbage-quality cases for all of them.

I found that Prvi Partizan .243 Win cases that I used to reload where significantly heavier that the North American stuff. So much so that I reduced loads a bit to compensate for the presumably thicker brass.

Look like expansion rings.

Measure the diameter of the Herter's, and the other makes of cases. It may be that the Herter's are a bit larger in diameter toward the head. Their expansion rings are slight and not particularly noticeable in the photo. Might be interesting to weigh them. If they are heavier, it would suggest thicker case walls.

 

[Hitzy]

I guess you don't read too well. My post said:

"BTW I used recovered primers and so some show a bit of leakage. No biggy there either"

I can see the hole in the primers, top row Hert case, bottom row Gev.
Maybe your eyes don't see too well?
Common issue with certain batches of Winchester primers, had it happen to me several times.

Eventually the bolt face will get eroded and have flame cutting from the failed primers.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

How about Dominion brass? I've got 100 or so of those.

The downside to PRVI brass is that it is expensive. $115 / 100

Graf 30-40 Krag brass is even more expensive at $150 / 100

Hornady 30-40 Krag cases are $132 / 100

 

[steelgray]

Okay, I see what you were referring to. What you say may be right, however for the record all these primers were transplanted from previous cases using a niffy Frankford Arsenal® Platinum Series Hand Deprimer that I'm just checking out now. It easily removes primers from one case in a condition where they remain reseatable in another case - but would assume that this process does put a bit of extra stress on the primer cup and anvil.

I think the primers involved were those gold coloured Winchester ones.

As for the cost and availability of Prvi 303 Br brass, I believe that I recently saw a reference that one vendor had these at $57 per bag of 50 and that vender supposedly had 150 bags.

By comparison, my local Cabela's lists a bag of 50 Hornady cases in super-common .308 for $84.99 - and they're out of stock. You decide whether $57 per bag for European 303 British is excessive or not.

I can see the hole in the primers, top row Hert case, bottom row Gev.
Maybe your eyes don't see too well?
Common issue with certain batches of Winchester primers, had it happen to me several times.
Eventually the bolt face will get eroded and have flame cutting from the failed primers.

 

[steelgray]

As I have noted I don't know if PRVI brass in 303 British is any good. I only know that the North American commercial stuff is junk and my Herters brass seems to show no signs of expansion rings, etc. I also know that PRVI stuff in another caliber I shoot (243 Win) is really good, strong stuff. It is conjecture that PRVI 303 British would be more like the Herters stuff and less like the North American commercial junk.

HOWEVER, Having got a bit interested in this I did a quick web search. These writers seems to have done their research on PRVI 303 British and draw useful conclusions

see https://www.gunandgame.com/threads/analyzing-prvi-partizan-303-ammunition-and-cartridge-cases.128923/

and https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/prvi-partizan-brass-quality.3869971/

Too bad the pictures have been removed.

There is also an amazingly dumb YouTube video that compares Remington, Hornady and PRVI 303 Br. brass. That video poster confirms that PRVI brass is heavier than the other stuff but then he gets totally ignorant with his shooting tests - which only seem to prove that the guy can't shoot and has a weird imagination.

 

[catnip]

I finally found a list that I made up years ago, when it was brutal cold out, and I was trying to find something to do inside. The following is an average weight of all the odd 303 cases that I could scrounge up. An interesting note is the imperial brass. pp-73(military)-180 gr., prvi/ppu-180 gr. , fed-174gr., win-163gr., rem-166gr., 1945 di z (Canadian military) 179gr., Imperial 183gr. Just some more grist for the mill. .... catnip

 

[steelgray]

This is great information. The average of 5 Herters cases came out to 182.36 grains - so heavier than pretty well everything on your list. No wonder Win and R-P fail so quickly - 163 and 166 grains! And I'd bet where the material is missing is right at the web. At 180 grains, PRVI is looking good.

I finally found a list that I made up years ago, when it was brutal cold out, and I was trying to find something to do inside. The following is an average weight of all the odd 303 cases that I could scrounge up. An interesting note is the imperial brass. pp-73(military)-180 gr., prvi/ppu-180 gr. , fed-174gr., win-163gr., rem-166gr., 1945 di z (Canadian military) 179gr., Imperial 183gr. Just some more grist for the mill. .... catnip

 

[I Dont Care About You]

This is great information.

Not really. It says that brass we can't get is the best quality and the brass we can get is lower quality. Thats not overly helpful.

 

[steelgray]

Except that there are strong indications that you can do a lot better than bothering with North American commercial junk (and using stupid o rings etc.) by getting readily-available and reasonably-affordable PRVI stuff. Whether this ultimately proves to be way better is TBA, but the signs are good (read the linked articles etc.). As for me, my North American commercial 303 British brass will be shot from my Mohawk this winter at my range where I don't care if they end-up lost as useless junk, in some snow bank. I'm buying a bunch of new PPU now. And, by the way, I have a BIG bag of the "H" good stuff, anyway.

Not really. It says that brass we can't get is the best quality and the brass we can get is lower quality. Thats not overly helpful.