DaveMachine
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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That's a good question I'd like to know the answer to.
Is The SAI Sterling R18 MKII Worth The Extra Cost?
- Thread starter 1ABNDT
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Cost and machinability are also miles apart. There's a reason why the 'premium' receivers like the ATRS MS and MDI SLR are 7075 (Which cost as much an entire assembled WK180), and the budget guns like the WK180s are 6061.
Hard to justify with the more expensive R18 though. Claims about better "ductility" being better able to withstand an out of battery detonation are just not right, lol. A basic understanding of metallurgy will tell you that tensile/shear strength is what matters. When you've exceeded a material's yield strength, it will come apart, and 7075's is almost double that of 6061's. They have very comparable elastic limits, which I guess could be closest to what was meant by ductility? 7075's is very slightly higher than 6061's, so you give nothing up there. The ONLY areas that 6061 is superior to 7075 would be thermal and electrical conductivity, neither of which are at all relevant to a firearm. I'm guessing electrical wiring and heatsinks aren't made out of 7075, lol.
TL/DR: 7075 is better for a firearm receiver in every single way other than cost. And the R18 should probably have been 7075, considering the price point.
DaveMachine
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
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Curious what the differences are between 6061 and 7075 in regards to ease of machining and availability of raw materials.
I threw down and bought one of the Blem'd guns.
Had it out and it was generally printing 3"+, 10 round groups @ 100m.
I had an extra 20" Armalite SS match barrel with an 8 twist floating around, so mounted that.
Range session this weekend with a different barrel.
IMG_5725 by M J, on Flickr
IMG_5726 by M J, on Flickr
IMG_5727 by M J, on Flickr
IMG_5728 by M J, on Flickr
IMG_5729 by M J, on Flickr
IMG_5731 by M J, on Flickr
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DaveMachine
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- That one place with a cowboy complex
If that barrel shows promise, I may try and build a frankengrendel.
This thing is printing similar groups to what all of these Canadian 180 clones are shooting.
Guys claiming a random 5 round group inside an inch as a sign their gun is consistently capable of shooting moa with these things, as an example, are dreaming.
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Are you sure?
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/2351600-SRV2-Siberian-Reviews/page31
This is also consistent with what BCL states on their web site, 1.2 MOA. Quite impressive. The Sterling is quite a bit more money. Pay more, get less.
I saw your post on the Siberian groups. I would probably say the same if I would own a Sterling. I would never buy one for political reasons. I know the history. Also I saw the ones with so called blemishes sold at a lower price, they don't have any blemishes. Sales are slow. Price is too high. Stock is sitting. Siberians are selling like hot cakes.
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I don't really care about cherry picked groups or covering and discounting 'fliers' from the group.
If others do it because it strokes their ego somehow showcasing their shooting prowess, or validating their purchase, then whatever - all the power to them.
I also could care less about that one group that bug holes that one time. I want repeatability and consistency.
To that end, I'd rather be shooting ammo that gives me 2.5 moa consistently from 100 - 500m than stuff that is 1 moa one time then 3 and 4 moa with the next two groups.
They are kidding themselves, snowing their audience and doing no one any favours (except I guess the manufacturer of said rifle).
I want to know how the rifle shoots with any given ammo, and by benching it, one is trying to eliminate the shooter as much as possible (chasing the mechanical accuracy), but that is difficult to do simply benched with bags.There is bound to be shooter and environmental elements at play.
By firing 10 rounds in relatively short order, we get to see how heat affects the group and the mechanical accuracy of the rifle/barrel.
If what you are suggesting is that BCL is installing better quality, stress relieved barrels on their Siberian, to the tune of being able to produce repeatable 1.2 moa with 10 rounds then I bet they could sell you some really nice ocean front property in Saskatchewan for a really good price!
You do realize that other than in most cases, with very minor tweaks, these guns are essentially the same, right?
I wouldn't be surprised if they were sourcing the same barrel blanks...
The biggest difference for me (and it's largest selling point) with the R18 is the rifle length gas. I can use 20"+ long barrels I have on hand.
I have plenty of carbine and mid length gas barrels too, if I was to go that route, but they are all too short (all under 18.5") to maintain non-restricted status.
Fit and finish, even on the blemished rifle, is superior.
Yeah, I'm pretty familiar with ALL of it, and it affected my investment much more than most.
The one I have is blemished. It's pretty minor - like less noticeable than the Templars that are coming from the manufacturer that way, but it is there.
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All of them.
This so far has to be my favourite video of groups and shooting for accuracy.
The best bit is at time stamp 8:10 where he dissects the group into two...
Discount the fliers and the ones you feel you pull and you too can have a benchrest gun with a Templar!
This so far has to be my favourite video of groups and shooting for accuracy.
The best bit is at time stamp 8:10 where he dissects the group into two...
Discount the fliers and the ones you feel you pull and you too can have a benchrest gun with a Templar!
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I disregard any group with fliers and pulled shots.All of them.
This so far has to be my favourite video of groups and shooting for accuracy.
The best bit is at time stamp 8:10 where he dissects the group into two...
Discount the fliers and the ones you feel you pull and you too can have a benchrest gun with a Templar!
fritzhanzel
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
All of them.
This so far has to be my favourite video of groups and shooting for accuracy.
The best bit is at time stamp 8:10 where he dissects the group into two...
Discount the fliers and the ones you feel you pull and you too can have a benchrest gun with a Templar!
He is quite honest about his groups. I see what you mean but when I look at his shooting setup and how the support wiggles around, I have no doubt that he pulled a few shots. Fast shooting too. Would be interesting to see how fast you shoot and your setup. You were using more expensive ammo, heavier bullets too, while he is shooting the cheap stuff.
I have watched many videos and the Winchester white box really sucks while the Xtac green tips showed excellent accuracy most of the times.
You guys need to try some premium ammo to see what the rifles are truly capable of. Short of working up an accurate reload, the use of premium ammo is your shortcut to premium group sizes. Seems kind of obvious, no? With 69 gr Federal Gold Medal Match I was achieving identical, consistent and repeatable, 1 5/8", 100m, 5-round groups out of both the factory barrelled R18 Mk 2 and the Crusader Templar (yes, I have owned both). With PMC XTac 55 gr and 62 gr my groups grew to the 2" (+) range. Bulk fodder = bulk results.
YMMV, but probably not by much!
'Fast shooting' has no bearing on group size. If you are saying he is shooting too fast and rushing his shots, that is a different tail.
Benched with a half decent position, a shooter should be able to hold 1/2 minute or their position needs work.
'Heavier bullets' also has no bearing on group size at 100m. Heavier bullets buck the wind better and offer a higher ballistic coefficient.
In fact, if you are familiar with short range bench rest, some of the best bullets are light weight (relative to their caliber) and flat based, as they are generally easier to stabilize at short range.
My 10 round groups are generally shot within a minute. 1) I'm trying to replicate / stay within a SR rapid string of fire (for when <if ever> )we get to use our rifles to shoot Service Rifle again, and 2)less wind gusting effects on the group (in theory).
Good news and bad news:
Good is that the Armalite barrel is showing considerable promise over the OEM Sterling tube, the bad is that it has a fairly tight .223 chamber.
All of my hand loads geared for 5.56 chambers blew primers, so while I'm sitting on a few thousand hand loads, I need to load specifically for this chamber.
IMG_0145 2 by M J, on Flickr
IMG_0146 2 by M J, on Flickr
fritzhanzel
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I stated pretty clearly what I saw. You picked the last sentence from my paragraph.
You shot heavy bullets to show us something, it did not work, your group sizes are worse than most of my SKS. Why, I don't know. Try different ammo maybe.
The Siberian has a twist rate of 1 to 7, the Sterling 1 to 8, so maybe the Siberian is able to stabilize the bullets faster. A heavier bullet has more stopping power but the heavy bullet ammo we can buy often also has the boat tail bullets and fly better. We could go this into length. I reloaded 223 and could not get better results than for example with a Fiocchi 55 gr ammo which is quite consistent.
Accuracy at 100 m depends a lot as to how consistent an ammo is loaded. You could just use a chronometer and foresee many of the results.
Just use the ammo Bartok5 recommended which is the same BCL recommends in their claim of accuracy.
It bothers me that everybody is using different ammo, the results often don't say much.
Just saw your post above. I am not interested in swapping barrels to get good results. But good for you having fun. I can only imagine how long it takes to load thousands of rounds of 223.
DaveMachine
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- That one place with a cowboy complex
Good news and bad news:
Good is that the Armalite barrel is showing considerable promise over the OEM Sterling tube, the bad is that it has a fairly tight .223 chamber.
All of my hand loads geared for 5.56 chambers blew primers, so while I'm sitting on a few thousand hand loads, I need to load specifically for this chamber.
That's not bad. I've never run gp90, is that on par with what you'd get out of other guns? If I had to guess, I imagine those groups are a bit bigger than out of pe90 or ar15 match gun.
