freezer filler
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Windsor, Ontario
My 580 series Mini 14 would shoot 3/4" 3 shot groups at 100 yds with a vx3 2.5-8x36 using Hornady Superformance ammo.
Is there such a thing as a sub moa out of the box 5.56 semi auto non restricted rifle
- Thread starter darufe
- Start date
redshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
Hardly a myth, I believe some semi-autos are capable of great precision, but finding a bolt gun that will shoot sub moa is pretty easy, just go pick pretty much any varmint rifle off the shelf and find a handload it likes, semi, not so simple.
Of course rifle heats up, and it will heat up in real world use.
In the military context, the reason to pick a semi auto over a bolt is the ability to deliver higher rate and volume when needed. A precision semi that cannot deliver rate and volume with some precision is pretty much meaningless.
The regular rate of fire for grunt work is about 10 rounds per minute. A rifle that shoots sub-moa with 3 or 5 rounds over gazillion minutes is meaningless for all practicalities, because no one out in the field shoots 3 rounds at their own leisure and fire the shots at the time they choose. Even in the competition world, like PRS matches, there isn't a luxury to wait for barrels to cool.
That is why a more reasonable way to gauge a rifle is to fire at least 10 rounds and within a minute. If you don't measure accuracy based on how the rifle is used, it is not an honest evaluation.
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Completely agree. For sport shooters, it's pointless and more a reflection of the barrel's ability or inability to dissipate heat. A cold barrel is an accurate barrel. When shooting for groups you are trying to test the maximum accuracy of the equipment and yourself. Plus trying to find the most accurate ammunition that works with your equipment. Especially those looking for a sub moa rifle like in this thread.
If you still have the rifle try Nosler 60gr Varmageddon over CFE223, two of my SL8's would shoot that fairly steadily into 1 moa. I'm not consistent enough to do it every group but it was regular enough to figure that it was me messing up and not the rifle/ammo combination.
Very true, but who says that's how the rifle will be used? I can't be the only guy who likes the semi for hunting coyotes, strictly because of the frequent chance to engage multiple dogs at one time. Three, maybe four shots fired in succession. For that type of use, I don't need accuracy that lasts for 10 rapid shots, and certainly don't need (or want) a 10-round mag hanging out the bottom of the gun.
Has the OP specified what the gun will be used for?
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
No.
Straight up honest answer.
Even more so if you're actually going to shoot it in any form of rapid fire (follow up shots on varmint etc if hunting)
"Sub MOA" is a buzz phrase. It's meaningless in a "black rifle". A "black rifle" is a semi auto variant of a modern battle rifle in this country. Else while it's a commercial made design which simulates these features at the core of its design.
Black rifles are not designed ever to be "SUB MOA" guns. That's why they have precision made bolt action rifles to be used with Match or individually hand loaded ammunition. They are sub MOA guns.
I don't understand the obsession people have now with "SUB MOA" especially when it comes to semi auto NR black rifles.
2,3 or even 4 MOA will still let you shoot effectively out to 400 even 500 meters using irons for Christ's sake depending on caliber. If you're slapping a scope on it for whatever reason then you can go out even further with more effect, even with a 4 MOA rifle.
It's like buying a big sluggish low end torque truck because you want to start drag racing. It doesn't make any sense.
If you want to explode a can of pop at 700 meters every single shot, you don't start by buying a rack grade AR15, know what I mean?
Straight up honest answer.
Even more so if you're actually going to shoot it in any form of rapid fire (follow up shots on varmint etc if hunting)
"Sub MOA" is a buzz phrase. It's meaningless in a "black rifle". A "black rifle" is a semi auto variant of a modern battle rifle in this country. Else while it's a commercial made design which simulates these features at the core of its design.
Black rifles are not designed ever to be "SUB MOA" guns. That's why they have precision made bolt action rifles to be used with Match or individually hand loaded ammunition. They are sub MOA guns.
I don't understand the obsession people have now with "SUB MOA" especially when it comes to semi auto NR black rifles.
2,3 or even 4 MOA will still let you shoot effectively out to 400 even 500 meters using irons for Christ's sake depending on caliber. If you're slapping a scope on it for whatever reason then you can go out even further with more effect, even with a 4 MOA rifle.
It's like buying a big sluggish low end torque truck because you want to start drag racing. It doesn't make any sense.
If you want to explode a can of pop at 700 meters every single shot, you don't start by buying a rack grade AR15, know what I mean?
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utter nonsense trav.
Why do people insist on clinging to the lowest possible rung on the ladder and enable the manufactures to do the same?
A black rifle is not categorically expected to be inaccurate by design.
It's just cheaper to make them inaccurate... even if that cheapness does not appear in the retail price.
Why do people insist on clinging to the lowest possible rung on the ladder and enable the manufactures to do the same?
A black rifle is not categorically expected to be inaccurate by design.
It's just cheaper to make them inaccurate... even if that cheapness does not appear in the retail price.
Are you actually trying to claim semi auto rifles on the whole are as accurate or more accurate then bolt action rifles?
A semi auto can be very accurate but if we expect a civilian version of a military battle rifle to be accurate then part of the conversion to the civilian model must include a $500-$1000 barrel and that will further raise the cost of the already expensive rifles. Put a $1000 barrel in a Tavor and I'm sure it will shoot better but with the $200 barrel it comes with you get what it's been giving. Rifle design affects accuracy as well and most of these were never designed to do better than 3-4 moa because that's all the basic military requirement calls for.
Custom built AR's with $500+ barrels are very accurate but as Travis said, we're basically looking at a rack grade AR equivalent in most of our black rifles. They cost more than an AR because they are made by a single manufacturer that makes 1000 units a year instead of having 20 manufacturers competing to sell to the 500000 unit a year market in the US.
Sorry no. Phil.
I am one of those guys who has something that works well I will usually leave it at that (if it ain't broke don't fix it) ,so no. Other that a little surplus 55 grn FMJ (mediocre results) I have not fed anything else into this gun. Phil.
Ok, but this isn't the army man lol. My "field" is like 3 rounds at a running coyote. Most hunters I know talk in patterns of 3. Cus in all honesty that's about all they get off in any normal situation.... They could care less about the other 7 and figures it's a waste of ammo hahaha
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
Oh agreed. But it still doesn't change the fact does it? Cause and effect the outcome is the same on this.
Maybe, from an engineering standpoint, there's no reason for a black rifle to be inaccurate...but they are indeed expected to be! When the latest wondergun hits the market, the first guys in line fork out their several thousand dollars, and quickly post reports of 3MOA, 4MOA or more...and then always qualify their observations with something along the lines of "This isn't meant to be a tack-driver and I didn't expect it to be one. As long as I can hit a watermelon at the other end of the deck with most shots, I'm satisfied!"
The buyers have been waiting for months or years for the RCMP to grant their grudging approval...they have often pre-paid or at least pre-ordered and waited another extended time period to get the guns in their hot little hands. Once you have paid, the manufacturer's purpose has been achieved: they have your money. They were able to charge an exorbitant price for a gun that has been anticipated for so long and with such fervor that almost any degree of performance...or lack thereof...can be rationalized. Of course they could have built the gun to be more accurate...but that would cost more money, raising the price even further without necessarily increasing their profit margin...so why on earth would they bother? The guns will sell as they are; case closed.
redshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
It depends on who you're referring to. I'm "obsessed" with sub MOA performance because I like to see just how well I can get the rifle to group, it's what I enjoy most when putting rounds down range. A very close second is what I'll refer to as CQB. Unfortunately there's always a "catch", and in this case it's my income. I'd love a few bolt guns to go along with my AR, but that literally depends on how much construction takes place where I live, and the last five years it hasn't been as much as I'd like. I work with what I have, and it seems to be working quite well.
I thought I was a Curmudgeon...you set the standard I strive to achieve.
Regarding the original question, non restricted semi, sub MOA, maybe...just a bit more $$$ than you might want to spend.
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Had an HK SL8. Was a laser. Shot consistent 1.25". Would get many 1" groups in a day's shooting and some sub MOA but not enough to call it a true 1 MOA rifle. Still I believe it is the most accurate semi auto non-restricted rifle one can buy.
I miss it but my aging back could not handle humping that anchor around anymore.
Moe
I miss it but my aging back could not handle humping that anchor around anymore.
Moe
