Is this JP Sauer SxS Worth it?

Horilka said:
Is there a guide on determining the year or approximate period of manufacture for Sauers?
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Look up German proof marks.

There are some dated serial number lists that I have seen but they are pre war……it’s a whole different thing post WWII.

This is no help to you but mostly I just go on visual cues. The shape of the action, the style and quality of the engraving etc. Until I’ve bought it I usually don’t care the specific year of production. And intersurplus photos are usually so poor I have to zoom in to really see what’s there. So all I’m trying to do is search the 30 postwar guns to find the one pre war gun.
 
canvasback said:
Look up German proof marks.

There are some dated serial number lists that I have seen but they are pre war……it’s a whole different thing post WWII.

This is no help to you but mostly I just go on visual cues. The shape of the action, the style and quality of the engraving etc. Until I’ve bought it I usually don’t care the specific year of production. And intersurplus photos are usually so poor I have to zoom in to really see what’s there. So all I’m trying to do is search the 30 postwar guns to find the one pre war
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canvasback said:
I’ll start by saying that I’m pretty into SxS and have over 20 of them. I have what might be called opening price point guns that I bought for under $500, including Sauer and Husqvarna, all the way up to Best guns like a Purdey and numerous Lindner made Charles Dalys. I aim for getting the best quality I can for the least amount of money. And that leads me most often to guns built between 1900 and 1939. And it also leads me to guns from makers who aren’t as well known or valued as some others are in the shotgun world.

In my opinion, the Husky 310 series made IIRC from roughly 1910 to the early years of WWII uses great materials, high quality barrels and great workmanship. And for the quality level, consistently undervalued in the modern gun market. Like almost every maker, Husqvarna’s quality suffered somewhat in the post war years but not as much as the German makers in Suhl, under the control of the USSR through their proxy East Germany. I’ve bought two Husky 310 AS 16 gauge, one of which I later sold to a good friend. The “A” refers to the level of embellishment, the “S” refers to the quality of the barrels, “S” being the middle of three quality levels. So I’m not recommending them from a theoretical basis. I currently own one and love it.
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In your option , if you were me, which husqvarna 310 would you buy off intersurplus? I would want a 2 3/4in chamber 12ga. SxS. I have been looking at the ones on the site for a couple days and would appreciate your opinion. They seem to all be <500.
 
ToyKar said:
In your option , if you were me, which husqvarna 310 would you buy off intersurplus? I would want a 2 3/4in chamber 12ga. SxS. I have been looking at the ones on the site for a couple days and would appreciate your opinion. They seem to all be <500.
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I don't want to recommend a specific gun to you but I'm happy to try to guide you in what to look for.

At the heart of any SxS are the barrels. This is because while everything else can be fixed (it just costs money) barrels that are not good cannot. The damage can be ameliorated (ie honing out pits) but can't be fixed. You will always have lost that metal. So the first thing I an trying to assess are the barrels. What gets said in the ad about the condition of the bores. A "mirror" finish on a $500 gun from before WWII is a double edged sword. Maybe they are mirror....that's a good thing. But likely the only way they get to be mirror is they have been honed out. And Canada has no proof laws protecting the buyer from barrels that are now too thin so as to be dangerous. One nice aspect of what I call Germanic guns (Germany/Austria/Sweden) is they tended to use high quality steel and they tended to make the barrels walls nice and sturdy. The downside is they may not handle quite as well as a more refined English gun.

Then I try to look closely at the wood to metal fit. One thing in particular I'm looking for is evidence of cracking in the wood. On older guns, the wood shrinks over time, lessening the size contact areas. That concentrates the force of recoil onto ever smaller bits of wood, increasing the likelihood of cracks. Look closely for cracks.

I look at the overall silhouette of the gun, checking the drop at heel, and I make sure I find out if not listed what the drop is. Given modern shooting styles, it should be about 2 1/2". More than 3" is a deal breaker for me. Lots of older guns, particularly American, have drops between 3 and 3 1/2".

If you are like me than the difference between paying $300 or $500 isn't a big deal if its the right gun. So after doing the above, I rank them by price and try to figure out why Intersurplus has priced one at $300 and one at $500. There is usually a reason. Then I pick one, knowing that if I receive it and I've missed something, I can return it for a full refund (except for freight). I have probably bought 8-10 guns from Intersurplus and it's predecessor Trade Ex. I have felt the need to return one.

Everything i have said can be applied to any gun you are looking at on line. Don't be afraid to call them up and ask more questions or for more pictures. Intersurplus and any good retailer should be happy to accommodate requests like that. And if you are dealing with a retailer who doesn't explicitly describe their return policy, ask what it is in an email so you get a written response. Don't just ask in a verbal conversation. you want written proof.

Edit to add: I find for myself that the longer I look at a gun on line, the pictures and the specs, the more I see. So I tend to go back for days on end, re-looking at listings that caught my eye initially. Sometimes on the 3rd or 4th look I see something that rules it out for me. Sometimes I see something that makes me buy it. Hard to put exactly into words but it's worth lingering over a few to see what they reveal.

Ive left out some of what I think are obvious things like does it lock up tight, are the barrels on face, do they ring when tapped etc. Common checks of condition for SxS shotguns. I have no idea how much you know or don't know. What I was trying to note were less common "must dos" that have really helped my buying over the years.
 
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canvasback said:
I don't want to recommend a specific gun to you but I'm happy to try to guide you in what to look for.

At the heart of any SxS are the barrels. This is because while everything else can be fixed (it just costs money) barrels that are not good cannot. The damage can be ameliorated (ie honing out pits) but can't be fixed. You will always have lost that metal. So the first thing I an trying to assess are the barrels. What gets said in the ad about the condition of the bores. A "mirror" finish on a $500 gun from before WWII is a double edged sword. Maybe they are mirror....that's a good thing. But likely the only way they get to be mirror is they have been honed out. And Canada has no proof laws protecting the buyer from barrels that are now too thin so as to be dangerous. One nice aspect of what I call Germanic guns (Germany/Austria/Sweden) is they tended to use high quality steel and they tended to make the barrels walls nice and sturdy. The downside is they may not handle quite as well as a more refined English gun.

Then I try to look closely at the wood to metal fit. One thing in particular I'm looking for is evidence of cracking in the wood. On older guns, the wood shrinks over time, lessening the size contact areas. That concentrates the force of recoil onto ever smaller bits of wood, increasing the likelihood of cracks. Look closely for cracks.

I look at the overall silhouette of the gun, checking the drop at heel, and I make sure I find out if not listed what the drop is. Given modern shooting styles, it should be about 2 1/2". More than 3" is a deal breaker for me. Lots of older guns, particularly American, have drops between 3 and 3 1/2".

If you are like me than the difference between paying $300 or $500 isn't a big deal if its the right gun. So after doing the above, I rank them by price and try to figure out why Intersurplus has priced one at $300 and one at $500. There is usually a reason. Then I pick one, knowing that if I receive it and I've missed something, I can return it for a full refund (except for freight). I have probably bought 8-10 guns from Intersurplus and it's predecessor Trade Ex. I have felt the need to return one.

Everything i have said can be applied to any gun you are looking at on line. Don't be afraid to call them up and ask more questions or for more pictures. Intersurplus and any good retailer should be happy to accommodate requests like that. And if you are dealing with a retailer who doesn't explicitly describe their return policy, ask what it is in an email so you get a written response. Don't just ask in a verbal conversation. you want written proof.

Edit to add: I find for myself that the longer I look at a gun on line, the pictures and the specs, the more I see. So I tend to go back for days on end, re-looking at listings that caught my eye initially. Sometimes on the 3rd or 4th look I see something that rules it out for me. Sometimes I see something that makes me buy it. Hard to put exactly into words but it's worth lingering over a few to see what they reveal.

Ive left out some of what I think are obvious things like does it lock up tight, are the barrels on face, do they ring when tapped etc. Common checks of condition for SxS shotguns. I have no idea how much you know or don't know. What I was trying to note were less common "must dos" that have really helped my buying over the years.
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This was very helpful info. Thanks for sharing!
 
canvasback said:
I don't want to recommend a specific gun to you but I'm happy to try to guide you in what to look for.

At the heart of any SxS are the barrels. This is because while everything else can be fixed (it just costs money) barrels that are not good cannot. The damage can be ameliorated (ie honing out pits) but can't be fixed. You will always have lost that metal. So the first thing I an trying to assess are the barrels. What gets said in the ad about the condition of the bores. A "mirror" finish on a $500 gun from before WWII is a double edged sword. Maybe they are mirror....that's a good thing. But likely the only way they get to be mirror is they have been honed out. And Canada has no proof laws protecting the buyer from barrels that are now too thin so as to be dangerous. One nice aspect of what I call Germanic guns (Germany/Austria/Sweden) is they tended to use high quality steel and they tended to make the barrels walls nice and sturdy. The downside is they may not handle quite as well as a more refined English gun.

Then I try to look closely at the wood to metal fit. One thing in particular I'm looking for is evidence of cracking in the wood. On older guns, the wood shrinks over time, lessening the size contact areas. That concentrates the force of recoil onto ever smaller bits of wood, increasing the likelihood of cracks. Look closely for cracks.

I look at the overall silhouette of the gun, checking the drop at heel, and I make sure I find out if not listed what the drop is. Given modern shooting styles, it should be about 2 1/2". More than 3" is a deal breaker for me. Lots of older guns, particularly American, have drops between 3 and 3 1/2".

If you are like me than the difference between paying $300 or $500 isn't a big deal if its the right gun. So after doing the above, I rank them by price and try to figure out why Intersurplus has priced one at $300 and one at $500. There is usually a reason. Then I pick one, knowing that if I receive it and I've missed something, I can return it for a full refund (except for freight). I have probably bought 8-10 guns from Intersurplus and it's predecessor Trade Ex. I have felt the need to return one.

Everything i have said can be applied to any gun you are looking at on line. Don't be afraid to call them up and ask more questions or for more pictures. Intersurplus and any good retailer should be happy to accommodate requests like that. And if you are dealing with a retailer who doesn't explicitly describe their return policy, ask what it is in an email so you get a written response. Don't just ask in a verbal conversation. you want written proof.

Edit to add: I find for myself that the longer I look at a gun on line, the pictures and the specs, the more I see. So I tend to go back for days on end, re-looking at listings that caught my eye initially. Sometimes on the 3rd or 4th look I see something that rules it out for me. Sometimes I see something that makes me buy it. Hard to put exactly into words but it's worth lingering over a few to see what they reveal.

Ive left out some of what I think are obvious things like does it lock up tight, are the barrels on face, do they ring when tapped etc. Common checks of condition for SxS shotguns. I have no idea how much you know or don't know. What I was trying to note were less common "must dos" that have really helped my buying over the years.
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Very informative thanks ! I'm new to looking into used guns like this so every bit helps. It's kinda fun looking through the ads now that I've looked at a bunch.
 
Mike Webb said:
Yes. Wasn't advertising just trying to illustrate my point about some German guns.
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I like the ones with case hardened receivers I love the look and I think Suhl often come with them. But I def am looking at the pre ww2 now based on this thread
 

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ToyKar said:
I like the ones with case hardened receivers I love the look and I think Suhl often come with them. But I def am looking at the pre ww2 now based on this thread
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Most every older SxS, regardless of origin (Suhl, Belgian, French, English, American etc) was case hardened because the metal needed to be hardened, not because of the colours that the process created. The colours were just a bonus. The colours fade in time. The microscopically thin layer of hardened steel is permanent unless annealed, a specific heat treatment.

If you follow the thread here from Claudio O about the restoration of a Parker 28 gauge, at some point he will post showing pictures of the freshly case hardened action and other components. Before he got to work on that gun, he would have annealed it, so the metal can be worked on much more easily.
 
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I had one of these, but in 20ga. You will find choke info on the barrel by the breech if you pop it off. Shell length, manufactured date, proofs, and choke.

When I did my research, almost all were 12ga, and relatively cheap. The 20ga was at best uncommon, and went for a good premi$m. Price seems rather high.

IIRC, they were all 2 3/4" and fixed choke full /modified. Mine was rather tight choked, slim, quality built, an absolute joy to shoot. Price is going to be very much according to condition. I think Intersurplus was bringing some of these in, cheaper but for the most part well used and dinged up.
 
Many of those Intersurplus guns have splinter fore-ends, which I dont care for. I bought a post WW2 Simson (Merkel) from them that had a beavertail fore-end. It was Q1 marked for export - a well appointed gun for a fair price.
 
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