Still listed ? Haha
Is this JP Sauer SxS Worth it?
- Thread starter ToyKar
- Start date
Look up German proof marks.
There are some dated serial number lists that I have seen but they are pre war……it’s a whole different thing post WWII.
This is no help to you but mostly I just go on visual cues. The shape of the action, the style and quality of the engraving etc. Until I’ve bought it I usually don’t care the specific year of production. And intersurplus photos are usually so poor I have to zoom in to really see what’s there. So all I’m trying to do is search the 30 postwar guns to find the one pre war gun.
In your option , if you were me, which husqvarna 310 would you buy off intersurplus? I would want a 2 3/4in chamber 12ga. SxS. I have been looking at the ones on the site for a couple days and would appreciate your opinion. They seem to all be <500.
I don't want to recommend a specific gun to you but I'm happy to try to guide you in what to look for.
At the heart of any SxS are the barrels. This is because while everything else can be fixed (it just costs money) barrels that are not good cannot. The damage can be ameliorated (ie honing out pits) but can't be fixed. You will always have lost that metal. So the first thing I an trying to assess are the barrels. What gets said in the ad about the condition of the bores. A "mirror" finish on a $500 gun from before WWII is a double edged sword. Maybe they are mirror....that's a good thing. But likely the only way they get to be mirror is they have been honed out. And Canada has no proof laws protecting the buyer from barrels that are now too thin so as to be dangerous. One nice aspect of what I call Germanic guns (Germany/Austria/Sweden) is they tended to use high quality steel and they tended to make the barrels walls nice and sturdy. The downside is they may not handle quite as well as a more refined English gun.
Then I try to look closely at the wood to metal fit. One thing in particular I'm looking for is evidence of cracking in the wood. On older guns, the wood shrinks over time, lessening the size contact areas. That concentrates the force of recoil onto ever smaller bits of wood, increasing the likelihood of cracks. Look closely for cracks.
I look at the overall silhouette of the gun, checking the drop at heel, and I make sure I find out if not listed what the drop is. Given modern shooting styles, it should be about 2 1/2". More than 3" is a deal breaker for me. Lots of older guns, particularly American, have drops between 3 and 3 1/2".
If you are like me than the difference between paying $300 or $500 isn't a big deal if its the right gun. So after doing the above, I rank them by price and try to figure out why Intersurplus has priced one at $300 and one at $500. There is usually a reason. Then I pick one, knowing that if I receive it and I've missed something, I can return it for a full refund (except for freight). I have probably bought 8-10 guns from Intersurplus and it's predecessor Trade Ex. I have felt the need to return one.
Everything i have said can be applied to any gun you are looking at on line. Don't be afraid to call them up and ask more questions or for more pictures. Intersurplus and any good retailer should be happy to accommodate requests like that. And if you are dealing with a retailer who doesn't explicitly describe their return policy, ask what it is in an email so you get a written response. Don't just ask in a verbal conversation. you want written proof.
Edit to add: I find for myself that the longer I look at a gun on line, the pictures and the specs, the more I see. So I tend to go back for days on end, re-looking at listings that caught my eye initially. Sometimes on the 3rd or 4th look I see something that rules it out for me. Sometimes I see something that makes me buy it. Hard to put exactly into words but it's worth lingering over a few to see what they reveal.
Ive left out some of what I think are obvious things like does it lock up tight, are the barrels on face, do they ring when tapped etc. Common checks of condition for SxS shotguns. I have no idea how much you know or don't know. What I was trying to note were less common "must dos" that have really helped my buying over the years.
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- Location
- Western Canada
This was very helpful info. Thanks for sharing!
Yes. Wasn't advertising just trying to illustrate my point about some German guns.
Very informative thanks ! I'm new to looking into used guns like this so every bit helps. It's kinda fun looking through the ads now that I've looked at a bunch.
I like the ones with case hardened receivers I love the look and I think Suhl often come with them. But I def am looking at the pre ww2 now based on this thread
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Most every older SxS, regardless of origin (Suhl, Belgian, French, English, American etc) was case hardened because the metal needed to be hardened, not because of the colours that the process created. The colours were just a bonus. The colours fade in time. The microscopically thin layer of hardened steel is permanent unless annealed, a specific heat treatment.
If you follow the thread here from Claudio O about the restoration of a Parker 28 gauge, at some point he will post showing pictures of the freshly case hardened action and other components. Before he got to work on that gun, he would have annealed it, so the metal can be worked on much more easily.
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nowarningshot
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I had one of these, but in 20ga. You will find choke info on the barrel by the breech if you pop it off. Shell length, manufactured date, proofs, and choke.
When I did my research, almost all were 12ga, and relatively cheap. The 20ga was at best uncommon, and went for a good premi$m. Price seems rather high.
IIRC, they were all 2 3/4" and fixed choke full /modified. Mine was rather tight choked, slim, quality built, an absolute joy to shoot. Price is going to be very much according to condition. I think Intersurplus was bringing some of these in, cheaper but for the most part well used and dinged up.
When I did my research, almost all were 12ga, and relatively cheap. The 20ga was at best uncommon, and went for a good premi$m. Price seems rather high.
IIRC, they were all 2 3/4" and fixed choke full /modified. Mine was rather tight choked, slim, quality built, an absolute joy to shoot. Price is going to be very much according to condition. I think Intersurplus was bringing some of these in, cheaper but for the most part well used and dinged up.
Many of those Intersurplus guns have splinter fore-ends, which I dont care for. I bought a post WW2 Simson (Merkel) from them that had a beavertail fore-end. It was Q1 marked for export - a well appointed gun for a fair price.
https://www.#######.ca/firearms/shotguns/saskatoon/two-side-x-side-12g-shotguns
Gun post
What about this site for firearms? Some cool ones
Gun post
What about this site for firearms? Some cool ones
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I think the description of "very good " is a bit of a stretch. I think "fair" or "beater" would be more appropriate. You're better off at Intersurplus or Great North Guns, where the condition is much better described, and you have the ability to pick something in better basic condition. Bear in mind that the locking mechanism on SXS shotguns is subject to wear, and that excessive wear is an expensive fix.
Also, that website is notorious for scammers. Although, I doubt anyone would try to scam cheap shotguns.
Also, that website is notorious for scammers. Although, I doubt anyone would try to scam cheap shotguns.
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Gun post is like Kijiji. Buyer beware. Lots of people have made good deals on there but there is much more scamming than a site like the EE here, as there is no oversight on the site. Before I seal a deal on Gun post, among other things, I'd want phone numbers, emails, name and address, additional pictures taken exactly as I ask to confirm they actually are in possession of the gun. With Kijiji, I would only ever buy in person and pay cash. Those wouldn't be bad guidelines for gun post.
Don’t forget, with Gun post and any other private deal, once the money exchanges hands, there is no going back. With most on line retailers, there is some kind of return policy. As a 'new to sxs' buyer, there is real value in being able to undo a deal if you've made a mistake.
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sillymike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I look at g#np0st (and t0wnp0st) mainly as entertainment ... pictures are often of poor quality, and if you asked some specific question, good luck with the answer.
- If someone is within driving distance, sure go for it.
- If someone is within driving distance, sure go for it.
Spanish guns! Lots to talk about and of course lots of opinion involved. But I'll be quick and these simply represent my opinion.
There are reasons why guns get priced as they do in the marketplace. Particularly used guns. The average price represents the collective wisdom of 1000s of deals over many years.
I won't buy a Spanish gun. Not because they can't or didn't make good ones. But because they added nothing to the craft except a lower price point. No innovation, no patents.....simply copies of what was popular or successful. And at the lower end of the market, price point ruled over quality. The Germans, for example, at any price point, were incapable of shoddy work. The Spaniards, and for that matter the Americans and the Belgians....no problem. You very rarely ever see a Spanish gun in a serious vintage gun collection.
I have a German sidelock made by Sauer. I bought it for $400. When new it was the opening price point sidelock from Sauer. I was with my gunsmith one day and had my Purdey with me as well as this Sauer sidelock. The Purdey would sell new today for around $100,000 plus. The modern day equivalent of the Sauer would be around $4-5K new. The smith pulled the locks from the Purdey and was showing me the internal craftsmanship of that gun. It was amazing. Then he pulled the locks from the Sauer. And pointed out that, while the mechanisms were simpler in the German gun, they were no less finely fitted and finished than the Purdey.
What you get with pre war German guns (and English and a few other places) is fine craftsmanship regardless of the orginal quality level the gun was built to. The same cannot be said about opening price point guns from Spain, America and Belgium. Belgium and America pioneered factory made guns prior to 1900. Spain came into prominence as a gun making country in the 50s and 60s making cheap versions of what was popular.
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I doubt that gun was custom made. EGO was capable of making some very nice guns, but that particular gun is a more modest offering. It appears to be a low mileage gun.
It compares to the Russian Baikal and Toz coach guns that normally go for ~450$. It doesnt mention chokes. I would assume cylinder or close to it, which may not suit your needs. For that type of money, there are lots of competing offerings (eg Merkel in VG condition, Baikal with single trigger and choke tubes in VG condition, etc.)
It compares to the Russian Baikal and Toz coach guns that normally go for ~450$. It doesnt mention chokes. I would assume cylinder or close to it, which may not suit your needs. For that type of money, there are lots of competing offerings (eg Merkel in VG condition, Baikal with single trigger and choke tubes in VG condition, etc.)
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