Brian Litz has recently run some very interesting experiments on cleaning with telling results. "Readers digest version. As your barrel wears, the BC of the bullets fired thru it gradually degrades due to increasing roughness, fire-cracking, etc. transferring roughness to the bullet surface and increasing skin friction drag." Solvents worked well to get both copper and carbon fouling out, but it took a periodic abrasive cleaning to deal with some of this roughness and return the barrel to consistency until it was shot out.
jb bore paste
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Brian Litz has recently run some very interesting experiments on cleaning with telling results. "Readers digest version. As your barrel wears, the BC of the bullets fired thru it gradually degrades due to increasing roughness, fire-cracking, etc. transferring roughness to the bullet surface and increasing skin friction drag." Solvents worked well to get both copper and carbon fouling out, but it took a periodic abrasive cleaning to deal with some of this roughness and return the barrel to consistency until it was shot out.
You don’t understand it for sure…it’s not abrasive and non imbedding.
It’s used in Benchrest gun that need both - accuracy AND precision. That was the purpose of it. Benchrest gun barrel are maintained shiny clean.
So it will do for any other barrel..
It just speed up cleaning after other products are used to remove the bulk of carbon and copper. Most of the time, that the only stuff that will remove carbon in the throat area.
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FWIW - I had fired about 100 rounds of SK+ in my V-MTR and had the beginning of a 'ring'. I soaked a patch with C4 in the chamber for about 20 min, then spun a nylon brush about 5-revs. It cleaned the carbon completely. Sorry, I didn't take b4 / after pics of this. It wasn't affecting accuracy at 100-rnds, but I didn't want to go to that point. I had run a C4 patch thru at the range but that was 4-days earlier.
As I said b4, I use the Rem40X Bore Cleaner for Copper fouling and in my SKS cause the Milsurp leaves Lots of Carbon along with Copper. Never bought any JB paste. The 457 was Not Quite as bad as this pic of my 455 last year ->
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As I said b4, I use the Rem40X Bore Cleaner for Copper fouling and in my SKS cause the Milsurp leaves Lots of Carbon along with Copper. Never bought any JB paste. The 457 was Not Quite as bad as this pic of my 455 last year ->
Read bartlein's write up on barrel cleaning and bore pastes, he explains the reasoning behind not using pastes. Here is the quote from their barrel cleaning page
We do not recommend using most paste type cleaners. These can be aggressive and like lapping etc… and if you don’t remove all of the paste before shooting you might as well have sand in the bore when the first round goes down it. It will damage the barrel. Also using paste type cleaners can keep polishing to the point and if over used will actually remove/change/effect the bore dimensions. The lands will take the most beating/wear to them. There are concerns that you can make the barrel too smooth and this also leads to copper fouling issues. Once something like this happens to the barrel it is usually damaged beyond the point it can be saved. Also using a past type cleaner with a brush is guaranteed damage to the bore. Paste cleaners like Iosso, Witch’s Brew, KG2 etc….and we’ve seen the damaged caused with these.
Anyone that shoots or has shot competitively knows they will only get about a third of the normally useful life out of their barrels.
There are all sorts of things to take into account such as nitriting, throat erosion, land edge erosion etc. Wear caused by cleaning products such as Iosso, JB's and others are going to happen, but so are carbon and jacket fouling.
Until some genius can come up with a way to force bullets down a bore and achieve acceptable velocities in a frictionless manner, it's going to happen.
When a shooter buys a rifle, that rifle should be selected for the type of shooting that's going to be done with it.
Other than the very odd one off, an off the shelf hunting rifle will not win precision shooting competitions. This rifle will very likely give the shooter close to or more than 7000 acceptably accurate shots, IF THE SHOOTER PROPERLY MAINTAINS AND CLEANS IT PROPERLY.
On the other hand, a rifle designed for competition will usually start to or have lost acceptable accuracy by 1500 rounds and if the barrel is set back an inch or so and rechambered with a match reamer the shooter may be able to squeeze another 750-1000 shots out of it before having to replace it.
I knew one fellow that would only use about 5 foot pounds of torque on his barrels when tightening them into the receivers. I watched him swap one of those barrels for another, while at a HBR shoot in Penticton, on a vise attached to the tailgate of his pick up. He put in a barrel that had been set back and rechambered, then shot a few sighters, adjusted the scope accordingly and went on to finish the course. He didn't come in first but place in the top five. Not bad.
His favorite cleaners were JB's, Iosso, Sweet's and Young's 303, then a clean up with alcohol before shooting.
You can't make a barrel last forever, but you can make it last longer, with useful accuracy if you clean appropriately.
As mentioned, different manufacturing methods do make a huge difference.
Some people never clean their bores and get very upset when it's mentioned as their rifles remain acceptably accurate for the type of shooting they do.
I also know people that will mix up different bullet types and weights in the mag, then expect the rifle to be sighted in for all of them.
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I take it you haven't tried "automotive cylinder cleaner?"
CLR will and does remove carbon RJ
I have some carbon that I couldn't get out with jb bore paste, it put a serious dent in it then I had to go to work away from home for the summer. I am have a tub of bore bright I am ready to apply with extreme indiscretion
Wipeout did nothing, in fact the carbon built up with regular Wipeout cleanings
Wipeout did nothing, in fact the carbon built up with regular Wipeout cleanings
Hmmmm, that's a new one.
However, every once in a while, I will use automotive cylinder bore cleaner to remove the carbon. Usually, Hoppe's is enough.
Under every layer of Copper there will be a thin layer of carbon. The Wipe out gets rid of the copper and usually the carbon.
How often are you cleaning?????? After 30+ rounds, some rifles have several layers of carbon and copper that can be difficult to remove.
Observed with a quality bore scope-
Wipe Out & several other "snake oils" to include any of the shaving cream cleaners, will camouflage/change any copper color to fool the operator.
Wipe Out is as useless as teet's on a fish!!
Copper removal is simple-ammonia/windex will remove copper.
The old interweb BS that Sweets 7.62 left in a bore for more than a couple minutes or so will erode the bore-
Funny,I placed a weighed & dimensioned drawn cup/core projectile in a glass baby food jar covered in Sweet's & sealed for 6 months-copper etched.
Several other "Snake Oils"subjected to the same test for months did not change the Sweet's blue or even etch/dull the jacket.
A 1" barrel stub was subjected that was weighed & dimensioned also w/ un- recognizable dimensional/weight variation.
I've throated chamber leades on competition rifles to remove carbon/donut.
I currently lap w/ silicon carbide/jag/patch to clean carbon w/o getting tennis elbow.
I do not believe that a polished bore will enhance copper streaking-it's total BS.
How is a smoother surface going to streak more copper that a rough surface-total BS
aka cut vs button/broached
Which one shoots/cleans easier?
A Gradient Lens Bore Scope tells NO LIES!
Dan you have to produce some evidence about WipeOut rather than simply stating "it's is as useless as teet's on a fish!!"
For many years I used Sweets 7.62 and JB Bore Cleaner when needed. I have found Wipe Out to be an effective replacement for Sweet's 7.62 and have been using WipeOut for many years now.
I agree ammonia based cleaners do no harm to the bore... it's just such a clean bore it is susceptible to rust if left.
If I cleaned the barrel with Wipe Out and dry patched it, why introduce a bronze brush?
No 'blue' on an ammonia patch after Wipe Out... and I used a nylon brush with the patch so as to not introduce a bronze reaction with the ammonia.
Dan posted "I do not believe that a polished bore will enhance copper streaking-it's total BS."
That's just your opinion and you're entitled to it.
Even some barrel makers suggest it may be an issue.
That's just your opinion and you're entitled to it.
Even some barrel makers suggest it may be an issue.
guntech-
Clean as per your technique w/ Wipe Out & dry patched.
(copper has been etched & color changed)
Ammonia pushed thru bore will not color a patch.
Brush the bore & chase w/ Shooter's Choice or Hoppe's.
Dry Patch
Inspect bore w/ a bore scope-copper was never removed.
drop a cup & core projectile into enough Wipe Out to cover it in a small glass container-check every couple days to observe the outcome.
What finish is an air gauged match barrel lapped to?
Which surface has less imperfections/tool marks that would/will scrub/catch/hold copper & carbon-
A 32 finish?
A mill bastard file?
Opposite ends of the spectrum, but the principle applies.
A quality bore scope tells NO lies.
Clean as per your technique w/ Wipe Out & dry patched.
(copper has been etched & color changed)
Ammonia pushed thru bore will not color a patch.
Brush the bore & chase w/ Shooter's Choice or Hoppe's.
Dry Patch
Inspect bore w/ a bore scope-copper was never removed.
drop a cup & core projectile into enough Wipe Out to cover it in a small glass container-check every couple days to observe the outcome.
What finish is an air gauged match barrel lapped to?
Which surface has less imperfections/tool marks that would/will scrub/catch/hold copper & carbon-
A 32 finish?
A mill bastard file?
Opposite ends of the spectrum, but the principle applies.
A quality bore scope tells NO lies.
