KelTec RDB vs Eh-R 180

Both the Type 97 and X95 are military rifles, not that this makes a difference to me. Personally I find the X95 very bulky and awkward compared to the Type 97. You can discuss this all day long with me, I won't change my mind. I just don't like the X95 even if it doesn't makes sense to you. Actually I don't like bullpups but I decided to keep the Type 97 for now.

BTW, where did I say that I liked the X95 so much? I just said that both type 97 and X95 were similar reliable and accurate when I tried them last week.

I have also no intention dragging any of my guns through the mud or drop it.
 
scianna54 said:
BTW, where did I say that I liked the X95 so much? I just said that both type 97 and X95 were similar reliable and accurate when I tried them last week.
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Your post about taking the X95 out for the first time and enjoying how it shot and then saying you understood why people are over the moon about the gun (excited and positive), then you sold it to some guy at the range...... it's a bit of a plot twist.... :)
 
Can-down said:
Your post about taking the X95 out for the first time and enjoying how it shot and then saying you understood why people are over the moon about the gun (excited and positive), then you sold it to some guy at the range...... it's a bit of a plot twist.... :)
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No, I didn't say that.

Everytime the X95 fanboys are coming out, I should just keep my flap shut.
 
scianna54 said:
No, I didn't say that.

Everytime the X95 fanboys are coming out, I should just keep my flap shut.
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I'm not looking to argue with you scianna, I've never shot an X95 and I think the type 97 is a good performer

Your post is not that far back.... if you want I can quote it exactly, but I thought it was enough to let you know that it didn't flow that well linguistically..... I just sort of assumed english wasn't your first language?

It seems like you decided to keep the type 97 and sell the X95 for a profit, after finding them both of similar performance, and then you end with,

" I sold for $2,740, still made $200 on it and now know what others are talking about when they praise the X95 over the moon."


Are you over the moon because you made $200?

Or was the guy you sold it to over the moon and now you understand what others are talking about when they praise the X95 over the moon?

Or did you mean to say "and now I don't know what others are talking about when they praise the X95 over the moon?

It's a bit ambiguous. Even your first line "Don't believe what everybody is posting" is a strange way to start off, do you include yourself in that statement? :)




scianna54 said:
Don't believe what everybody is posting.

I just bought a X95, took both of my type 97 gen 3 and the X95 to the range, shot one after the other (100 rounds each) - even swapped over the scope to eliminate a subjective opinion based on that - both were similar accurate and reliable, and sold the X95 right there on the range to another shooter who was all over it - to actually own a X95 at a reasonable price. He was so happy, and so was I. Local dealer wants $3,200 plus tax, so almost 3,600 for the X95, I sold for $2,740, still made $200 on it and now know what others are talking about when they praise the X95 over the moon.
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I Dont Care About You said:
As a military derived rifle, there is no possibility the X95 is less reliable than the RDB. I owned an RDB and have experienced the dreaded double feed, which is not fun to clear. I also had a problem with the trigger doubling, which cost way too much to get fixed. I sold my RDB with no regrets.
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X95 is more reliable, military design from a nation with OK record in modern firearm manufacturing.

I Dont Care About You said:
The X95 takedown simplicity blows the RDB out of the water. One pin and the whole BCG pulls out as a unit.
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RDB design is more progressive, more modern and simple (better). RDB it is better for its purpose - sport shooting, it is not designed for military. RDB is not made of top quality materials though, it's just mostly "good enough".
X95 design is outdated and overcomplicated with limited access to the parts that require cleaning. I had a lot of fun and many questions to X95 designers doing full strip during MSW debacle. Most of X95 parts are of high quality.

Let me put it this way - if these two designs were manufactured by same major company, IWI or S&W - RDB would win in all categories, just because its design is better. It is sane, it makes sense, unlike many things in X95.

P.S. I sold my RDBs and I kept X95.
 
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I Dont Care About You said:
A rifle designed for military use has other benefits. It's way more rugged and durable but it can also handle being dirty and muddy and get dropped and dragged through stuff. The RDB will simply not put up with anything like that. It is much more of a range rifle ... which is fine, if that's all you ever want to use it for.



The X95 conversion to LH is pretty easy, although it does require a ca. $300 bolt. The X95 takedown simplicity blows the RDB out of the water. One pin and the whole BCG pulls out as a unit. Sure the RDB trigger has a better feel but it is nowhere near as durable. Not sure about bbl length. I thought both would have an 18.5" bbl.
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I've spent an above average about of time in the woods, off trail (more piles of bear crap than there are people) and having hamdled the RDB some I don't think it lacks sturdiness, at least not for anything i would experience in my range.

It probably wouldn't do to well if i threw it on some rocks or did the old inrange mud test but i would simply choose not to purposely damage my rifle?

As to the takedown, sure the x95 gets the bolt oytbwith one pin but that's all you get. 4 pins on the rdb gets you access to just about every moving part on it for easy cleaning.

And when i say i want ambidexterity, i don't mean i want to ve able to take it apart and put it back together left handed, i mean i want to switch shoulders and have the rifle be as close to identical in behavior as possible. for bullpups the KT designs just blow everything else out of the water on that front.
 
Can-down said:
I'm not looking to argue with you scianna, I've never shot an X95 and I think the type 97 is a good performer

Your post is not that far back.... if you want I can quote it exactly, but I thought it was enough to let you know that it didn't flow that well linguistically..... I just sort of assumed english wasn't your first language?

It seems like you decided to keep the type 97 and sell the X95 for a profit, after finding them both of similar performance, and then you end with,

" I sold for $2,740, still made $200 on it and now know what others are talking about when they praise the X95 over the moon."


Are you over the moon because you made $200?

Or was the guy you sold it to over the moon and now you understand what others are talking about when they praise the X95 over the moon?

Or did you mean to say "and now I don't know what others are talking about when they praise the X95 over the moon?

It's a bit ambiguous. Even your first line "Don't believe what everybody is posting" is a strange way to start off, do you include yourself in that statement? :)
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The first sentence was in response to the post I quoted. Yes, you can include me. I know what I posted and it was intentionally. You imply otherwise, blaming it on my English comprehension.

My last sentence is very unclear. I bought the rifle to see what the fuss is all about. No more, no less. The price point should have been a separate subject. I have no money to give away. The market appears to be getting flooded with X95, so choose carefully if you are in the market to buy one.
 
scianna54 said:
My concern with the RDB would be no warranty for second hand products and lack of available spare parts and no support if you need any.

Type 97 is fairly accurate when cold but once the barrel heats up, that goes downhill. Still, love the reliability. The magwell is tight, not all magazines work but easy to figure out. The trigger is not as bad as the type 81. SKS trigger is better, just the spring kit and degreasing the whole thing helps a lot.
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I found this with my 3 t 97s.
Had to stone the magwell on one.
Ran all mags through the 3 of the.
Whichever mags had problems in any one. I discarded from inventory.

All three had problems with green tips.

I still have all three and do not intend to sell any. Best option until, if we get non restricted ar15s.
 
1895GS said:
I found this with my 3 t 97s.
Had to stone the magwell on one.
Ran all mags through the 3 of the.
Whichever mags had problems in any one. I discarded from inventory.

All three had problems with green tips.
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I prefer Fiocchi 223, no problem with those, maybe I will try the greentips next time. Yes, the type 97 can be fussy with magazines. BUT, I found it easier to insert the magazine into the magwell than with the X95 (hahaha, here we go again) - definitely needs practise. Would also be nice to have the bolt lock back - and not have to push that "thing" at the rear bottom - I saw how people do it on youtube (you need a sling).
 
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scianna54 said:
The first sentence was in response to the post I quoted. Yes, you can include me. I know what I posted and it was intentionally. You imply otherwise, blaming it on my English comprehension.

My last sentence is very unclear. I bought the rifle to see what the fuss is all about. No more, no less. The price point should have been a separate subject. I have no money to give away. The market appears to be getting flooded with X95, so choose carefully if you are in the market to buy one.
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I'm not in the market but thanks for the free advice and explanation of sorts... it was your English writing that had me puzzled, I never doubted your comprehension of what you were trying to expresss in words..... it was mine that was struggling.


Take it easy.
 
Can-down said:
I'm not in the market but thanks for the free advice and explanation of sorts... it was your English writing that had me puzzled, I never doubted your comprehension of what you were trying to expresss in words..... it was mine that was struggling.


Take it easy.
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It's the German in me, long sentences. :cool:

I did quite a few essays in English and I am telling you that you are not wrong. Always had to correct the unclear passages, endless sentences. The verb is at the end in German which makes it very hard for non German speakers to understand WTF is going on.
 
scianna54 said:
It's the German in me, long sentences. :cool:

I did quite a few essays in English and I am telling you that you are not wrong. Always had to correct the unclear passages, endless sentences. The verb is at the end in German which makes it very hard for non German speakers to understand WTF is going on.
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Verstanden, I spoke pretty good German when I was around 14 and I studied it in school for a couple years.... bit rusty now!
 
Horilka said:
X95 is more reliable, military design from a nation with OK record in modern firearm manufacturing.
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The nation that spawned the Galil, the Uzi, the Tavor and the Desert Eagle rates an "OK" record?


Horilka said:
RDB design is more progressive, more modern and simple (better). RDB it is better for its purpose - sport shooting, it is not designed for military. RDB is not made of top quality materials though, it's just mostly "good enough".
X95 design is outdated and overcomplicated with limited access to the parts that require cleaning. I had a lot of fun and many questions to X95 designers doing full strip during MSW debacle. Most of X95 parts are of high quality.

Let me put it this way - if these two designs were manufactured by same major company, IWI or S&W - RDB would win in all categories, just because its design is better. It is sane, it makes sense, unlike many things in X95.

P.S. I sold my RDBs and I kept X95.
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The RDB design is deeply flawed. The barrel is the spine of the rifle, which is a mildly interesting idea but has the problem of the steel barrel expanding with temperature at a different rate from the aluminum scope rail. Take a look at the pic rail and you'll notice the rear screw hole is oblong to allow the rail to slightly float on the barrel mounts. That is not what I'd call a "sane" design.

Not being able to see the chamber and the rifle essentially needing to be partially disassembled to clear a jam in the chamber is a very serious problem for any rifle. Especially one that can easily have the gas system adjusted down to the point where double feeds can be induced. This is not better than the Tavor. It is demonstrably worse.

The RDB gas system is open to being grabbed when it is hot, which will result in a serious burn. Also not better.

The RDB magazine release is interesting but it is not better than the more intuitive release on the X95. It is also much slower than the X95 because it requires the same hand that could also be holding a new mag waiting to be inserted.

I liked my RDB until the trigger went south and required a pretty expensive repair. I also sold my RDB and kept the X95.

I don't hate the RDB. It's an interesting rifle and I kinda liked it. But it is in no way the equal of the X95 as a whole package. The RDB has a few features that are better but as a package it is beaten out by the X95.
 
scianna54 said:
SFRC now has the X95 on sale in black, $2,528 if anybody is interested. Kel Tec RDB is $1,401. Plus tax, free shipping.
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Not sure where you are seeing that price for the X95 but I just went to the SFRC online store and the X95 is listed at $2940
https://theammosource.com/iwi-x95-556-nato-18.6-barrel-semi-auto-black/

The RDB is listed at $1630
https://theammosource.com/keltec-rdb-semi-auto-223-rem-bullpup-20-barrel-black/


scianna54 said:
Bolt release is fine as you say. I was talking about the bolt lock.
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I'll give you that manually locking back the X95 bolt is a little fiddly. Its the only thing I don't like about the rifle.
 
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