Great point.
Was colts bankruptcy due to product quality and competition or because of their upper management paying themselves too much does anyone know?
LaRue, PWS, KAC etc, What Are We Really Paying For?
- Thread starter GunfighterAlpha
- Start date
Great point.
Was colts bankruptcy due to product quality and competition or because of their upper management paying themselves too much does anyone know?
I would gladly pay a premium to have a barrel that is not made by some "bloke with a bit of know-how".You're right, the cost of doing business in Germany is much higher, there are also other challenges as well, especially for firearms manufacturers. For example, over here in NA, when we decide to make a barrel, a bloke with a bit of know-how and the right tools can build one without too much trouble. In Germany you have to have the plans drawn up, examined by an engineer, then they have to supervise the prototype's manufacture, then it's off to a proving house to have it tested to it's limit. Everything is over engineered because of two things, 1). the law 2). it's very Teutonic.
-S.
^ this
Spikes, DD and BCM have been and/or are current customers of Aeros at one time or another. Always get a chuckle when someone states their ### Lower is better than the next. Chances are it's either an Aero or CMT. Most of these a made to spec by one of the three or four main producers, then shipped to the end-user either for both anodizing and/or in house rollmarks to be added.
Somewhere either on M4carbine or ARF, there was a thread that broke down who (Aero, CMT etc) has or is supplying for whom previously and currently.
CarbineOne
Regular
What about the guy who was running an SR-25 that day?
I don't recall "J" being there. But again, that would have nothing to do with the rifle and everything to do with the fact he's a damned good shot. You could give that guy a sling shot and some marbles and he'd out shoot a lot of people running HKs. I believe you're thinking about the Long Distance Marksmanship Course?
-S.
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CarbineOne
Regular
Nah, I was there that day too
-J
There you have it. I know it's the operator and not the tools that make things happen. How insulted would you be if I said something asinine like you made those 200m offhand shots because of the rifle and not your ability? Sorry I forgot you were there, but the memory ain't what it used to be. I suffered three concussions too many. :|
-S.
Bingo.
Some guys say it's the same as any other rifle, but just has the name.
When comparing though.......
Standard - Higher quality brake or flash suppressor comes with the KAC rifles than the regular A2 found on other offerings.
Standard - Improved gas system
Standard - Cold hammer forged sub MOA barrel
Standard - URX4 keymod rail system
Standard - Enhanced BCG and E3 Bolt
Standard - Ambi Safety
Standard - Ambi Bolt Release/catch
Standard - Ambi Mag Release
Standard - 2 Stage Match Trigger
Standard - Integrated Sling Mounts on rail, Action and Stock
Standard - SOPMOD Stock
Standard - Adjustable BUS
Could be missing some other features, but when adding up the cost to add those features to your existing AR.......
I won't claim that any rifle is the same. I know that all the top shelf stuff is top shelf. But that is only one percent of it. It has always been who's swinging the iron that counts. I myself own some great rifles, but they are just tools.
-S.
-S.
When asking why some rifles cost more than others, I'm not sure why a person behind the trigger would factor into the cost evaluation.
It would be the same person shooting it.
When discussing the Aston Martin and why it costs what it does you don't respond with "depends who's driving it".
Both the Aston and the KAC are tools, however there is a reason why they cost more, and it's not just the name or the operator.
The problem lies with some people here who think some shooters don't deserve top of the shelf firearms, i.e. comments of the like "being schooled by someone shooting a norinco."
I disagree completely, this is not the army, I decide what I buy, I am spending my own money, I am my own support & maintenance & logistics, I will be the one shooting it, whether or not I am capable of stretching the firearm to its utmost limits is absolutely of no ones concern and frankly those that think so should **** off and die.
It would be the same as saying only nascar drivers should be buying mustangs and corvettes. That's just dumb, petty and silly.
Some people have money and can afford top of the shelf, some others don't and can't, that's it, that's how the world works folks, been like that for 40 000 years.
I disagree completely, this is not the army, I decide what I buy, I am spending my own money, I am my own support & maintenance & logistics, I will be the one shooting it, whether or not I am capable of stretching the firearm to its utmost limits is absolutely of no ones concern and frankly those that think so should **** off and die.
It would be the same as saying only nascar drivers should be buying mustangs and corvettes. That's just dumb, petty and silly.
Some people have money and can afford top of the shelf, some others don't and can't, that's it, that's how the world works folks, been like that for 40 000 years.
Where did I mention that certain people don't deserve certain rifles unless they were "XYZ"?
How does what I said translate into that?
I said I've seen better results from the change in quality of the operator.
-S.
When asking why some rifles cost more than others, I'm not sure why a person behind the trigger would factor into the cost evaluation.
It would be the same person shooting it.
When discussing the Aston Martin and why it costs what it does you don't respond with "depends who's driving it".
Both the Aston and the KAC are tools, however there is a reason why they cost more, and it's not just the name or the operator.
Valid points. Didn't think about it that way.
-S.
That right there. The uppers or lowers may all be made by a couple companies but it's the finishing and fitting of the top shelf parts by the big name companies that makes the difference. If you just want a standard anodized and parkerized part then any will do but if you want better coating or one of the various surface hardening procedures like the different forms of nitriding then you pay a little extra. Then you pay a little more for a better LPK that comes standard from the top shelf manufacturers. Then some have their own versions of an enhanced BCG and buffer tube. Then they put the research in to tune the gas port position and dimensions and match that to the weight of the buffer and BCG with a spring rate to finish it off creating a perfectly tuned and reliable SYSTEM.
They don't just over-gas the rifle to ensure it will cycle like the cheaper rifles made by the lower manufacturers.
As was said earlier, a well trained operator with a cheap rifle will usually outperform a newbie with a KAC or other top tier rifle but when you put that same top tier rifle in the hands of the well trained operator something magical happens.
I don't think I'm better than anyone just because I own a PWS and also build my own rifles, at the level I'm at I could use any AR and probably get similar results. But the more I practice and the more I learn about the rifles the more I appreciate having a higher end AR.
No matter what rifle someone has it's better than no rifle and for general plinking on a one way range it all comes down to how much a person is willing to spend.
What I find funny though is when someone buys a $2000+ AR then feeds it Norinco crap ammo and actually expects the rifle to perform well. It would be like putting regular unleaded in your new corvette, it may not ruin the motor right away but you definitely aren't doing it any favors and it won't be putting out the power it's capable of when the computer retards the timing to prevent knock.
OP; first, my apologies. I totally sidetracked on this.
As far as where the point of diminishing returns happens WRT ARs, it is a sliding rule. For the most part, any of the mentioned rifles are worth the money. Some do end up closser to the far end of the scale in my opinion. However many do feel that this is justified. All the power to 'em, I guess.
Many of these companies not only provide accessories and hand fit up, but also subscribe to patents as well as conducting trials with their equipment, a few even have proper R&D departments I wager. Then you have to consider the talent. Good people aren't cheap to acquire, train or retain.
FWIW, I prefer the PWS. They provide an excellent piston rifle that weighs as much as a comparable DI rifle, has great accuracy;, on par with KAC & HK in my opinion as well as a barrel service life that is very long (I've got 8000rds through mine with no change in accuracy and no noticeable wear. Some have cited the same with as many as 14000rds in a year). When I got mine in FDE it was listed at $2300.00. I am confident that it is as good or better than the others for the cost.
To the rest of you, my apologies. This was not what I wanted to have happen.
-S.
As far as where the point of diminishing returns happens WRT ARs, it is a sliding rule. For the most part, any of the mentioned rifles are worth the money. Some do end up closser to the far end of the scale in my opinion. However many do feel that this is justified. All the power to 'em, I guess.
Many of these companies not only provide accessories and hand fit up, but also subscribe to patents as well as conducting trials with their equipment, a few even have proper R&D departments I wager. Then you have to consider the talent. Good people aren't cheap to acquire, train or retain.
FWIW, I prefer the PWS. They provide an excellent piston rifle that weighs as much as a comparable DI rifle, has great accuracy;, on par with KAC & HK in my opinion as well as a barrel service life that is very long (I've got 8000rds through mine with no change in accuracy and no noticeable wear. Some have cited the same with as many as 14000rds in a year). When I got mine in FDE it was listed at $2300.00. I am confident that it is as good or better than the others for the cost.
To the rest of you, my apologies. This was not what I wanted to have happen.
-S.
I recently got to compare a PWS M112 (12.5" barrel) vs. a Questar barrel ACR (18.5" barrel). The recoil impulse (long piston recoil system) on the PWS seemed milder than the short recoil impulse on the ACR. Balance and weight on the PWS is much better than comparable piston AR's that use short recoil system (like LMT).
The little PWS was very accurate too.
The little PWS was very accurate too.
andrew3081
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
So one could buy at least 4 decent quality AR15 for price of 1 HK...I think the choice is pretty clear!
