Lee Enfield "more accurate" at 600m - fact or fiction?
- Thread starter Tudenom
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Note to Ganderite; Yes, there were a lot of things to be forgotten about some of that IVI ammo: bum primers, hard cases, hard primers, split cases, punctured primers, thin rims (really bad on rimmed cartridges: headspace), completely erratic performance. Bill C and Hunter G took apart a whole box of fresh .30-30 at the Gander range one afternoon, discovered 2 rounds with NO powder, charges running from super-light to over-Proof, all in the same box. LOT of 'poor shooting' that year.
I wrote a newspaper article (partly) on the stuff, called it "How Not to Blow Up Your Gun", printed it in the Lewisporte paper but it was picked up by Gander, Grand Falls, Stephenville, Green Bay, Port-aux-Basques, Clarenville, ..... about a dozen papers in all.... one paper in Nova Scotia even reprinted it. People just all over the map demanding their money back on the ammo. IVI sued the newspaper company for half a million, me for another half a million (which neither of us had, BTW), my boss was in a complete tizzy over it, just did NOT know what to do. In the end, we sent them a letter asking for THEIR help in identifying the problems with their ammo, sent along the 6 rounds I had photographed for the newspaper article.
My boss just about jumped out of his skin at this, because that was all our evidence, or so he thought. So I just had him write a little PS to the letter: "PS: You may keep the enclosed specimens; we have 300 more."
I STILL have some of that stuff around somewhere.
IVI then spent a LOT of money buying ads to tell people what a clown I am and telling the world that their ammo is the best which can be made. I still haven't bought a box.
But I was the guy who broke the story, FWIW.
I wrote a newspaper article (partly) on the stuff, called it "How Not to Blow Up Your Gun", printed it in the Lewisporte paper but it was picked up by Gander, Grand Falls, Stephenville, Green Bay, Port-aux-Basques, Clarenville, ..... about a dozen papers in all.... one paper in Nova Scotia even reprinted it. People just all over the map demanding their money back on the ammo. IVI sued the newspaper company for half a million, me for another half a million (which neither of us had, BTW), my boss was in a complete tizzy over it, just did NOT know what to do. In the end, we sent them a letter asking for THEIR help in identifying the problems with their ammo, sent along the 6 rounds I had photographed for the newspaper article.
My boss just about jumped out of his skin at this, because that was all our evidence, or so he thought. So I just had him write a little PS to the letter: "PS: You may keep the enclosed specimens; we have 300 more."
I STILL have some of that stuff around somewhere.
IVI then spent a LOT of money buying ads to tell people what a clown I am and telling the world that their ammo is the best which can be made. I still haven't bought a box.
But I was the guy who broke the story, FWIW.
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We had problems with both IVI 9mm and 7.62 when it came into the supply system in the early 1970s. I recall raising UCRs on it in 1PPCLI-crooked case mouths, dud primers, and other s**te that did'nt give the troops a warm fuzzy feeling.
Prior to that the DA ammo was just fine. Not too long ago I was looking at some of the excellent old DA 7.62 ammo that was put up in 5 rd stripper clips in the plastic bandoliers. The fellow that had it on his table at a show insisted that it was match ammo. I told him that it was standard issue for us back in the 1960s and wasn't it nice of the Army to be issuing us match grade ammo all the time.
Prior to that the DA ammo was just fine. Not too long ago I was looking at some of the excellent old DA 7.62 ammo that was put up in 5 rd stripper clips in the plastic bandoliers. The fellow that had it on his table at a show insisted that it was match ammo. I told him that it was standard issue for us back in the 1960s and wasn't it nice of the Army to be issuing us match grade ammo all the time.Not too long ago I was looking at some of the excellent old DA 7.62 ammo that was put up in 5 rd stripper clips in the plastic bandoliers. The fellow that had it on his table at a show insisted that it was match ammo.
We used to refer to it as "tropical packs." A few years ago I got about 600 rounds of it in a second hand store for $25. The sign on the bin it was in said "Diver's Weight Belts."
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IVI 7.62 Sometime the primer was in upside down. Some bullets had a jacket, but no core. In the winter you would find the core about 25 yards forward of the shooter, laying on the snow.
I was given a can of each lot number of DA in the system at one point. I tested it at 200 yards, off sandbags, on scoped target rifle. Most of it shot round groups, just under 2 minutes. IVI was about 3 minutes.
Then I made Mexican Match out of the IVI and DA, re-weighing the same powder and substituting a Seirra 150 gr MatchKing. All lots under a minute. I found that sizing the neck down with no expander button helped shrink the groups quite a bit.
Moral of the story reported back to DCRA. IVI is poor. Some DA is good. Match bullets are much, much better.
A year or two later the DCRA switched over to Mexican Match with 150 match bullets. Scores took a big jump upwards.
I was given a can of each lot number of DA in the system at one point. I tested it at 200 yards, off sandbags, on scoped target rifle. Most of it shot round groups, just under 2 minutes. IVI was about 3 minutes.
Then I made Mexican Match out of the IVI and DA, re-weighing the same powder and substituting a Seirra 150 gr MatchKing. All lots under a minute. I found that sizing the neck down with no expander button helped shrink the groups quite a bit.
Moral of the story reported back to DCRA. IVI is poor. Some DA is good. Match bullets are much, much better.
A year or two later the DCRA switched over to Mexican Match with 150 match bullets. Scores took a big jump upwards.
You mean you're not already writing this stuff down? Shame on you...
Not only do I write it down (these days, electronically, of course) but I go try them out at the range as soon as I can, before I forget it all.Smellie - I usd to work for CIL, R&D, before the ammo plant was sold to IVI. All complaint letters came to us becasue we had to see if they had merit. Even the smallest complaint could be the tip of a huge problem.
What really scared us was ammo contaminated with a wrong powder. the most common problem was "Ammo jams my gun." We usually determined this was a gun that had not been cleaned in 20 years.
One lot of shotgun ammo was recalled because part of the lot was loaded with Red Dot instead of Blue dot. Pressures were about 150%. One guy wrote in and asked if he could buy all the recalled ammo, because he was getting kills at 75 yards with it.
My impression of IVI was that they let all the skilled corporate knowledge guys go, so the ones that read your letter may not have been smart enough to see they had a problem.
What really scared us was ammo contaminated with a wrong powder. the most common problem was "Ammo jams my gun." We usually determined this was a gun that had not been cleaned in 20 years.
One lot of shotgun ammo was recalled because part of the lot was loaded with Red Dot instead of Blue dot. Pressures were about 150%. One guy wrote in and asked if he could buy all the recalled ammo, because he was getting kills at 75 yards with it.
My impression of IVI was that they let all the skilled corporate knowledge guys go, so the ones that read your letter may not have been smart enough to see they had a problem.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. If there is not a concerted effort to preserve this info, twenty years from now nobody will believe that an enfield could hit a 1000 yrd target. Scans of old memos aren't going to cut it, we need a book.You mean you're not already writing this stuff down? Shame on you...
Actually, right you are! In twenty years, nobody would believe anyone could shoot 1000 yards with nothing but open sights. Heck even today, many don't believe it. However, I do believe there will be those of us carrying the torch into the future...our children! My 9-year old for instance, can't wait to shoot the SMLE. I'm working on reduced loads, to save her young shoulder, but if we introduce the old guns to our young 'uns, I'm sure they will enjoy the challenge of shooting the iron sights.
Good comments on the relative accuracy of DA and IVI 7.62. I'm always amused when I keep reading tales of guys getting consistent sub-MOA groups with MILSURP 7.62 ball in their out-of-the-box Norinco M14 clones.
I always felt that good MILSURP 7.62 ball was capable of 2 MOA on average-altho I've been surprised with some stuff that ran a bit better. there are just too many variables in bullet and charge weights to expect match grade accuracy from this mass produced ammo. Then you need to make allowances for the shooter and the rifle itself. But hey, this is the internet where groups are always smaller and horns and boobs are bigger.
I always felt that good MILSURP 7.62 ball was capable of 2 MOA on average-altho I've been surprised with some stuff that ran a bit better. there are just too many variables in bullet and charge weights to expect match grade accuracy from this mass produced ammo. Then you need to make allowances for the shooter and the rifle itself. But hey, this is the internet where groups are always smaller and horns and boobs are bigger.
Note to Ganderite: When we could get CIL ammo, I shot nothing but, when I could afford it. You and the other guys did a terrific job. Once it was sold to IVI, quality hit the pits.
As to the letter my boss sent in, it DEFINITELY went to the right guy: the one who was suing us on behalf of the company. So we let him have the 6 I had photographed for the newspaper article. I had bags of the stuff, Imperial, Ace, Mastercraft, all with split cases, split necks, rims as thin as .037" (instead of .063") punctured primers by the bucketful, incipient case separations by the handful, things like that. Much of this ammo had come from the famous Moose Test, the Newfoundland Government's certification of hunters, which was the first in the country. This was a 3-part test that everyone had to take before they could get a big-game licence: first part was hunting regs, second part was firearms safety, third part was a 3-shot group at 50 yards and you brought your own ammunition. All rifles were inspected by Wildlife personnel before being allowed to shoot. I know for a fact that my 1907 Mark I* * * was the ONLY non-matching .303 which was allowed to shoot the test, but I shot DI-1944 ammo. I don't hunt, but I took the test because I had written a snarky editorial saying how easy it was, so I felt that I had to prove that I could do it just so I didn't have egg on my face. So I did it. So did my wife, with her MN 91/30 with 1950 Soviet Ball ammo. She passed, too. MUCH of the bum ammo I had was from .303s, but I also had heaps from .30-30, .308, .30-'06, being that I bought 5,000 fired casings from the Wildlife guys (they had a great party!).
But the letter went in AFTER they were threatening lawsuit and talking megabucks. It left Grand Falls on a Wednesday night, would have gone to Montreal in the Thursday mail. It was MONDAY morning that we got a screaming phone call from the same guy, fellow named Mustard, demanding to buy full-page ads in ALL our papers. The actual ad was couriered out to Grand Falls, already laid-out and in PMT form (photomechanical transfer), so somebody had been hard at work all weekend: the ad had required typesetting and camera work both, including reverses. It was pretty much an all-day job to put it together. Ad was in the Wednesday papers, too, and some of them were printed Tuesday!
So our little gift didn't get lost!
And there were NO more harsh words about lawsuits or millions of dollars, either.
Really think the message got through to The Right People.
As to the letter my boss sent in, it DEFINITELY went to the right guy: the one who was suing us on behalf of the company. So we let him have the 6 I had photographed for the newspaper article. I had bags of the stuff, Imperial, Ace, Mastercraft, all with split cases, split necks, rims as thin as .037" (instead of .063") punctured primers by the bucketful, incipient case separations by the handful, things like that. Much of this ammo had come from the famous Moose Test, the Newfoundland Government's certification of hunters, which was the first in the country. This was a 3-part test that everyone had to take before they could get a big-game licence: first part was hunting regs, second part was firearms safety, third part was a 3-shot group at 50 yards and you brought your own ammunition. All rifles were inspected by Wildlife personnel before being allowed to shoot. I know for a fact that my 1907 Mark I* * * was the ONLY non-matching .303 which was allowed to shoot the test, but I shot DI-1944 ammo. I don't hunt, but I took the test because I had written a snarky editorial saying how easy it was, so I felt that I had to prove that I could do it just so I didn't have egg on my face. So I did it. So did my wife, with her MN 91/30 with 1950 Soviet Ball ammo. She passed, too. MUCH of the bum ammo I had was from .303s, but I also had heaps from .30-30, .308, .30-'06, being that I bought 5,000 fired casings from the Wildlife guys (they had a great party!).
But the letter went in AFTER they were threatening lawsuit and talking megabucks. It left Grand Falls on a Wednesday night, would have gone to Montreal in the Thursday mail. It was MONDAY morning that we got a screaming phone call from the same guy, fellow named Mustard, demanding to buy full-page ads in ALL our papers. The actual ad was couriered out to Grand Falls, already laid-out and in PMT form (photomechanical transfer), so somebody had been hard at work all weekend: the ad had required typesetting and camera work both, including reverses. It was pretty much an all-day job to put it together. Ad was in the Wednesday papers, too, and some of them were printed Tuesday!
So our little gift didn't get lost!
And there were NO more harsh words about lawsuits or millions of dollars, either.
Really think the message got through to The Right People.
The two and three minute groups I referred to when testing the various lots of DA and IVI were all 10 shot groups.
I shot with a 24X scope, so could easily watch the groups form. Many a 5 shot group looked fantastic, but after 10 shots looked pretty average. This reminded me of a phrase I kept running into from my boss, back in the R&D days - "statistically significant."
Back to the original topic - long range compensation. I am working on one of those modern Australian #4 rifles. Intitial groups were big. I bedded it, including a pad near the muzzle. Group is now 1" wide and 2" high at 100 yards with match ammo and 16X scope off sandbags.
One would normally think a 2" group sucks. But this looks exactly like how a real good #4 groups at 100 yards. I bet that 2 minute group is smaller somewhere between 600 and 1200 yards.
Since I have no intention of using it for that, I will add some up pressure to the pad, and see if I can't flatten the group a bit.
I cannot divulge all the secrets to bedding a #4. The full process includes an incantation and some dead cat parts.
I shot with a 24X scope, so could easily watch the groups form. Many a 5 shot group looked fantastic, but after 10 shots looked pretty average. This reminded me of a phrase I kept running into from my boss, back in the R&D days - "statistically significant."
Back to the original topic - long range compensation. I am working on one of those modern Australian #4 rifles. Intitial groups were big. I bedded it, including a pad near the muzzle. Group is now 1" wide and 2" high at 100 yards with match ammo and 16X scope off sandbags.
One would normally think a 2" group sucks. But this looks exactly like how a real good #4 groups at 100 yards. I bet that 2 minute group is smaller somewhere between 600 and 1200 yards.
Since I have no intention of using it for that, I will add some up pressure to the pad, and see if I can't flatten the group a bit.
I cannot divulge all the secrets to bedding a #4. The full process includes an incantation and some dead cat parts.
I was looking for a picture to show what 1000 yards looks like, but only found this one, which shows a team match being shot at 1200 yards, at Bisley. This match is for "Match Rifles" which allows scopes.
My wife and I used to shoot the 1200 yard matches with our target rifles (iron sights, military ball ammo) as part of our warm up for the main matches. It took the fright of 1000 yards away. Made it seem like close range.
In this picture, the 1000 yard firing point can be seen in front of the shooters. yes, the targets are invisible. You should try it with iron sights on a windy, wet day.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/762_photo/4794417511/in/set-72157624113298173/
My wife and I used to shoot the 1200 yard matches with our target rifles (iron sights, military ball ammo) as part of our warm up for the main matches. It took the fright of 1000 yards away. Made it seem like close range.
In this picture, the 1000 yard firing point can be seen in front of the shooters. yes, the targets are invisible. You should try it with iron sights on a windy, wet day.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/762_photo/4794417511/in/set-72157624113298173/
Smellie - How did you get to go from the best moose hunting and salmon fishing part of the world to "rural Manitoba"?
I used to fish betwen Gambo and Grand Falls when I was in Gander. My wife would happily summer in Lewisport, except she does not speak the language.....
I used to fish betwen Gambo and Grand Falls when I was in Gander. My wife would happily summer in Lewisport, except she does not speak the language.....
I knew there was Voodoo involved - my buddy said it was 'science' I told him BS, it's Voodoo. I knew it.
DaveMachine
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- That one place with a cowboy complex
About the comment earlier about newer rifles lacking irons...
I've wondered about this myself. Seems most people can't shoot unless they are using a 24x at 100 yards At the local range I rarely see people shoot past 100 anyways, kind of sad really. Makes me want to pull out the M1917 and Jungle Carbine and take them up to the mountains where I can try my hand at some long range stuff.
I love reading stuff like this, it makes me realize how little I truly know about shooting.
I've wondered about this myself. Seems most people can't shoot unless they are using a 24x at 100 yards
At the local range I rarely see people shoot past 100 anyways, kind of sad really. Makes me want to pull out the M1917 and Jungle Carbine and take them up to the mountains where I can try my hand at some long range stuff. I love reading stuff like this, it makes me realize how little I truly know about shooting.
As to how I got back out here (again), that is a long, sad, silly story. I really miss The Rock. Before I went out there, I told an older friend where I was going. He shook my hand and said, "Then I guess this is good-bye. Once you've seen it, you'll never want to leave."
Smitty was right.
As to your wife's ineptitide with the language, just tell her that much of the local dialect comes from 18th Century West Country English as spoken with your face frozen. That's what it developed from and how it developed... along with a whack of localisms. Art Scammell was at a function in Lewisporte once and I talked with him. He said that there were only two people living who could write the oldtime Bay dialects; one was Ray Guy (of course!)..... and the other was me. I think that is the greatest compliment I ever had for my writing. Oh, the awards are nice, but that, coming from HIM, is different entirely. It is a beautiful language all of its own, and so very descriptive and colourful. Well, his poems show that and they are available to anyone who can read.
I quite agree as to the multifarous secrets of rifle bedding, but you really should try using dog-parts or virgins or something. Continue using CAT-parts and, in the words of Sidney the Profound, "Bast will GET YOU for that!" Interesting that Bast was the protecting goddess of Cats... but she was also the Divine Avenger.
Keep shootin'!
Smitty was right.
As to your wife's ineptitide with the language, just tell her that much of the local dialect comes from 18th Century West Country English as spoken with your face frozen. That's what it developed from and how it developed... along with a whack of localisms. Art Scammell was at a function in Lewisporte once and I talked with him. He said that there were only two people living who could write the oldtime Bay dialects; one was Ray Guy (of course!)..... and the other was me. I think that is the greatest compliment I ever had for my writing. Oh, the awards are nice, but that, coming from HIM, is different entirely. It is a beautiful language all of its own, and so very descriptive and colourful. Well, his poems show that and they are available to anyone who can read.
I quite agree as to the multifarous secrets of rifle bedding, but you really should try using dog-parts or virgins or something. Continue using CAT-parts and, in the words of Sidney the Profound, "Bast will GET YOU for that!" Interesting that Bast was the protecting goddess of Cats... but she was also the Divine Avenger.
Keep shootin'!
Wow!!
Just trying best guess...is the target that very small white rectangle near the middle of the picture? If so, how on earth does one aim for something like that?
