Legal Length???

[brownbear53]

Please show me the part of the law that makes any mention of this? Such as Requiring tools? Do they give a specific minimum torque spec?


The simple fact is this isn't actually covered by any written law. And if it's not spelled out in the law it comes down to the opinion of the lab (remember, they're the experts the courts will call upon), and I certainly wouldn't want to be in court for ANYTHING that relies on the opinion of the lab.

And the best part is the Lab isn't even consistent on these matters - there is a PAR model where a pinned on muzzle device was allowed to count as barrel length, yet normally it doesn't count.

It's all bull####, and it'll cost you a pretty penny to get a ruling whether you're found to be in the right or not.

Not everything has to be specified specifically in a law, its absence also has just as much weight. Ones failure to comprehend it is on them. The law clearly states 660mm/ 26" is the minimum OAL, anything modified to be under is PROHIBITED, it gives no specifics, that measurement is made by inspecting and measuring it in a normal firing condition, be that with a 4" long fake suppressor or a thread protector. You make sense by reading multiple sentences and seeing how they apply.

The only reason the muzzle device is not counted for barrel length is due to this clause, had this not been mentioned separately, there is no other claim in the entirety of the firearm's act about it. If no statement were to explicitly prohibit it from being included, muzzle devices would have counted towards both OAL and barrel length.



Plenty of Lab approved examples to argue your claim.

* If you were correct that the OAL doesn't include it, IWI wouldn't have run a thicker buttplates on the TAR21 for Canadian import. IDF thin buttplates sold in Canada come with a disclaimer that they can only be used on an x95 and not a Tar21 due to the length restrictions, unless being used with an aftermarket accessory that increases OAL length.

* Dlask wouldn't have been making Short barrel 22s for sale. (8" barrels can be used on OEM stocks legally)

* SBI wouldn't tweak their chassis to be longer behind the receiver for the build to measure 26.2" with a 12.5" barrel

* Pinning a GSG16 stock extended after barrel swap (done by every gun store that did a conversion) would not have been legal since its the muzzle device brings it to 26.4" (a mp5 stock brings it to 28.5")

*The Kriss Vector 22lr SBR would not have been legal without the faux suppressor mounted at the end (26.2" OAL)
* Kriss Vector SBR "RIFLES" were required to have a AR style collapsing stock, whereas the 18.6" barrel versions came with a folding stock similar to that of the American SBRs


You already have a bias coming into this, thinking that you are the only one that's correct based on information you received that even you cannot prove, contradicting over two dozen threads regarding this subject on this forum alone.
No matter how much proof is provided by me or anyone else here about it. Its pretty obvious you wont step away from your premeditated opinions, so you best hear it with your own ears. Call your local CFO and ask them for yourself. Call your local gun stores or ranges, call the CFO, call your local non emergency number to check if you have to. Acquire the proof yourself, and make sure to do it from multiple sources and not just one guy from the lab.

 

[OkayShooter]

According to the lab, when I asked about this same thing (folding stock on a 10/22), muzzle devices don't count for OAL.

I used to have it in writing from a lab tech, but it was in my university email which I no longer have access to.

You know you keep brining this up. But you never bothered to contact the lab again to get it? So we are suppose to believe you?

How the hell will they know? They're just gonna take a measuring tape and measure or attempt to close it. But when will they get to this point? Most officers won't do this and it is just other gun owners that police. Likely it will because some other gun owner will rat them out.

My Krinker plinker. I welded the metal button. There was no way you were pushing that button to unlatch the stock, without a grinder and drill.

Simple matter. Keep it 26" oal and nobody will care. Except you.

 

[p@3ck]

13" midwest handguard doesn't seem bad after seeing this... (props to the owner here)

 

[Suther]

* Pinning a GSG16 stock extended after barrel swap (done by every gun store that did a conversion) would not have been legal since its the muzzle device brings it to 26.4" (a mp5 stock brings it to 28.5")

How many of those GSGs went through the lab? None, because they were already NR. Meanwhile, when dlask tried to pin the stock on keltec CMRs the lab told them no, that's not good enough to get them classed as NR.

In fact, in the same discussion I had with the lab i asked about pinning the stock on a 10/22 as an alternative to getting to the legal OAL if the muzzle device doesn't count. Lab said that's not good enough, once a folding stock always a folding stock. (They're more technical wording was that being designed/manufactured as a folding stock means it's always a folding stock regardless of modifications done to it.)


What the law says does matter, because anything not explicitly stated in the law is open to interpretation and considering the level of authority the Lab gets in a court of law I wouldn't want to be playing in the realm of "open to interpretation". YMMV.

Y'all are free to make your own decisions. I'm just sharing what the lab told me in writing. I feel I have a duty to tell people about the information I was given. If you don't like that, it's not my problem. What you do with that info is also not my problem.

 

[Suther]

You know you keep brining this up. But you never bothered to contact the lab again to get it? So we are suppose to believe you?

If you don't believe my word that's a you problem.

If you don't believe my word, why would you believe an email I post? I could make that up as well if my goal here was to spread misinformation or deceive people.

 

[jimbo45]

I have the exact same build as your pic same chassis with magpul stock and a factory made 10 inch charger barrel had to add an m4 flash suppressor and a thicker but pad to make 26.5 inches i dont like 26 always preferd a bit more length than 26. I can tell you this that folding stock will have to be pinned to not fold or it will be restricted

 

[jimbo45]

No it does not.

For a rim fire the muzzle brake does count towards over all length so long as it cant be easily removed

 

[brownbear53]

How many of those GSGs went through the lab? None, because they were already NR. Meanwhile, when dlask tried to pin the stock on keltec CMRs the lab told them no, that's not good enough to get them classed as NR.

In fact, in the same discussion I had with the lab i asked about pinning the stock on a 10/22 as an alternative to getting to the legal OAL if the muzzle device doesn't count. Lab said that's not good enough, once a folding stock always a folding stock. (They're more technical wording was that being designed/manufactured as a folding stock means it's always a folding stock regardless of modifications done to it.)


What the law says does matter, because anything not explicitly stated in the law is open to interpretation and considering the level of authority the Lab gets in a court of law I wouldn't want to be playing in the realm of "open to interpretation". YMMV.

Y'all are free to make your own decisions. I'm just sharing what the lab told me in writing. I feel I have a duty to tell people about the information I was given. If you don't like that, it's not my problem. What you do with that info is also not my problem.

Did you actually follow that topic as it progressed? Or are you a repeating what you read from someone else comment. I'll dumb it down for you, pinning the existing stock on the restricted will not change the status of the rifle because someone was dumb enough to attempt to declassify the rifle with hot glue and a stop pin, hence the labs decision, their hot glue stop pin fell off during test firing.

Dlask did barrel swaps to meet non restricted status, rifles are legal and measure 26.25" OAL with the new barrel installed with just a thread protector. Other importers have also bought in the exact same 16" barrel version with a different collapsing stock that does not sit flush with the receiver, thus making it over 26" and non restricted.



At least I provide evidence when I backup my claims, evidence that has ranged from various gun dealers, importers, stores and designers.
You've been making your argument based on a conversation with one person that you cant seem to find proof (you claimed you had) for.


Like I, and apparently plenty of others have told you already, no matter what we mention, quote, or say, you will not agree with us.
You have a bias you need to check for yourself, not agreeing with us is understandable, but it seems you're too afraid to pick up the phone and fact check yourself because I think even some part of you knows that those phone calls will prove your own beliefs wrong. I genuinely pity the people in your personal life that may ever have a disagreement with you, and frankly you proved this conversation will go nowhere so we best just leave it there. Wishing you the best.

 

[OkayShooter]

If you don't believe my word that's a you problem.

If you don't believe my word, why would you believe an email I post? I could make that up as well if my goal here was to spread misinformation or deceive people.

Well you're saying we are wrong. I had it in a email that I no longer have, but I'm not gonna bother getting the info again. So we must trust you. So it is no different than I heard it from billy, my step cousin, baby daddy.

Then you can have 3 different interpretations of the same rule.

Having officer friends. They don't give a fu*k if its welded solid, pinned etc. As long as it meets the 26" OAL

 

[apexanimal]

Ive actually had firearms confiscated by the police and held for months, and eventually all returned, so i have alot more knowledge in this area than "i spoke to someone at the lab once". Among my firearms at the time was a krinker plinker with a folding stock that was welded into the fixed position, and had an ak74 style muzzle brake threaded on to meet the 26" OAL requirement. If either of these things were not allowed, i would not have recieved it back from the literal police lol. For the record they kept a fake single action army revolver i had because they said it was a "replica firearm" and was prohibited. Considering it was 50 dollars and my collection they were giving back to me was in excess of 10k i did not sit there arguing about it. Either way, welding a folding stock into fixed position, and having a muzzle device on the end of your barrel are both totally fine to meet OAL requirements. I cant believe this argument is still alive.

 

[call2arms]

If you don't believe my word that's a you problem.

If you don't believe my word, why would you believe an email I post? I could make that up as well if my goal here was to spread misinformation or deceive people.

For what it is worth I believe you are relaying accurately what you were told by the lab. I don’t think you are spreading misinformation or attempting to deceive people. It is the lab that spreads misinformation and attempts to deceive people

 

[Rearguard]

I read in the past while investigating this issue that for muzzle devices to be added to length they need to be a permanent installation. Then I found defined meaning of that was "non removable by means of welding on by a gunsmith"

Either way if its close and you piss off the officer with your knowledge they will take it and you will work it at your own time and cost with the crown.

Better to be over a bit.

 

[p@3ck]

Canadian Safety Source lists both pieces but 3-4 weeks to fill the order......

Hit or miss. Me and a buddy didn't have luck with them. That is the problem with drop shippers

Bit the bullet... ordered 4 items Saturday (I ordered the ones with inventory)... I got shipment notification today...

I decided with the the 13" handguard as I couldn't find a buffer adapter.