Linseed Oil, Boiled Linseed Oil, and Tung. Head to Head Test!
- Thread starter jimenez
- Start date
Military facts
After Dunkirk the armourers no longer re-oiled the Enfield stocks during the yearly tear down inspection, and the troops oiled their own issued rifles with raw linseed oil.
FM 23-10 U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1903 1943-09-30
Milsurp???? "try anything.....or god forbid, have a little fun."......... Paint military Sky Grey, oil base, FS 36463
- Location
- Calgary Alberta
hey everyone...for the definitive guide on wood finishing in general I highly recommend a book "understanding wood finishes" by bob Flexner Lee
Valley in Calgary is where I got mine...it has everything you could imagine.. talks about how to test your products to find out exactly what they are and stuff like what oil finishes are best for . incidentally from my experience with figured wood you can really make the figure pop if you first use an amber dye (water based) or any other color you want and sand back the areas around the figure removing the top surface of the dye to make the figure jump out and then use an oil finish to penetrate the wood. I like a custom amber dye mix and then some polymerized linseed oil which speeds drying.
Valley in Calgary is where I got mine...it has everything you could imagine.. talks about how to test your products to find out exactly what they are and stuff like what oil finishes are best for . incidentally from my experience with figured wood you can really make the figure pop if you first use an amber dye (water based) or any other color you want and sand back the areas around the figure removing the top surface of the dye to make the figure jump out and then use an oil finish to penetrate the wood. I like a custom amber dye mix and then some polymerized linseed oil which speeds drying.
I would like to thank the OP for his effort in showing the effects of the different oils for stock finish. He stuck with it and did what he intended to do, in spite of considerable annoyances along the way!
This is what this group needs, more hands on efforts in practical experiments and day to day situations.
This is much better than trying to get all information from Google, or some other such source.
This is what this group needs, more hands on efforts in practical experiments and day to day situations.
This is much better than trying to get all information from Google, or some other such source.
Right now in another posting here by Cdn303 who has an Enfield rifle shooting high due to wood shrinkage due to not reapplying raw linseed oil to the thirsty wood. Another Canadian made the following suggestion, it isn't a matter of Googling for information it is a matter of having the correct information.
No4 zeroing issue
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/972304-No4-zeroing-issue
Applying anything to the wood isn't the answer especially if it dries on the surface and doesn't penetrate deeply into the wood. It would appear that at least one member here besides myself understands the benefits of raw linseed oil. Over ten years ago I did the same basic thing as jimenez did here in another forum explaining why raw linseed oil was used. It wasn't guesswork or an opinion, and it came directly from the manuals and talking to actual armourers who actually hot dipped Enfield stocks in vats of raw linseed oil. Applying the correct finish to your stock may solve wood shrinkage and simple bedding problems and that has nothing to who your friends are in a forum.
In closing this is a open milsurp forum where information is shared, if you want your friends to surround you and agree with everything you say then go to Facebook.
No4 zeroing issue
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/972304-No4-zeroing-issue
Applying anything to the wood isn't the answer especially if it dries on the surface and doesn't penetrate deeply into the wood. It would appear that at least one member here besides myself understands the benefits of raw linseed oil. Over ten years ago I did the same basic thing as jimenez did here in another forum explaining why raw linseed oil was used. It wasn't guesswork or an opinion, and it came directly from the manuals and talking to actual armourers who actually hot dipped Enfield stocks in vats of raw linseed oil. Applying the correct finish to your stock may solve wood shrinkage and simple bedding problems and that has nothing to who your friends are in a forum.
In closing this is a open milsurp forum where information is shared, if you want your friends to surround you and agree with everything you say then go to Facebook.
He stated what he observed...the "bead" of water is no longer a bead...full stop.
Also, read his orginal posts where he started this off.
He quite clearly states he is not disputing what is/was used or recommended.
"However its not 1944, Ill use whats at hand for a reasonable cost. I never said the point of this test is to determine with scientific accuracy what they put on garands whist lying in a foxhole in France. Im just trying to shed light on a subject thatis all to often debated but never really tried. "
He is merely trying different types of finishes that most milsurp owners would consider when refinishing their rifles. As for the "validity" of this being in the "milsurp" forum, its about as good a place as any. Most shooters of modern rifles would refinish in more modern products (the poly based varnishes etc.) while those refinishing their milsurps would liely use one of the three under test.
Also, read his orginal posts where he started this off.
He quite clearly states he is not disputing what is/was used or recommended.
"However its not 1944, Ill use whats at hand for a reasonable cost. I never said the point of this test is to determine with scientific accuracy what they put on garands whist lying in a foxhole in France. Im just trying to shed light on a subject thatis all to often debated but never really tried. "
He is merely trying different types of finishes that most milsurp owners would consider when refinishing their rifles. As for the "validity" of this being in the "milsurp" forum, its about as good a place as any. Most shooters of modern rifles would refinish in more modern products (the poly based varnishes etc.) while those refinishing their milsurps would liely use one of the three under test.
The OP used the word "failed" and that's what set bigedp51 off.
Fact is, bigedp51 is right. A product that offers some protection for the wood while allowing it to breathe is the best. Ever hear of those moldy, leaky condos? They get moldy because moisture gets trapped and can't get out. Then real bad things happen. If water vapour can escape, then it'll be ok. Same with a fence, wooden table or a rifle stock. FWIW, when I made a cedar planter box for our garden, I used a raw "oil" product on it. I'd never use a film finish on something like that.
That said, today's film finishes are real durable and can dry hard and won't leave any oily residue on your clothes. I've finished a couple rifle stocks (nothing that belongs in this forum) and I used polymerized tung oil. I know the "risks", but I know these rifles won't be in the muck. I'm not going to war with them and they definitely aren't collectible.
Besides, I coated everywhere with the finish so it's unlikely that there would ever be a problem. Anyhow, as long as people understand the pros and cons of various finishes, then have at 'er.
Wowza that sure created a buzz. Thanks for the back up guys. I have drawn no conclusions. I am just seeing what happens. Im going to keep seeing what happens. I want to know what happens. Ill post pics later about what the blocks look like now that the water has evaporated.
Observations are as follows: Linseed Oil was the first bead to fail and evaporate. The water left an obvious mark on the wood that is a lighter color almost like the unfinnished block.
Control was 2nd to fail and evaporate. Obviously as this block wasnt treated it left a wet spot with minor discouloration, but i suspect this will dry off fine.
The Tung Oil failed 3rd and left almost no evidence of the drop. Leaving only the faintest ring of darker gummy stuff at the edge of where the bead of water was.
The BLO was the last to evaporate at 11 hours and 40 mins! The block is almost un-affected. Faint faint water circular mark, similar to the tung.
Thats what I saw. Ill post some pics and a little more detailed info later when I can i have pics with timestamps so i can place when each one dryed up and what it looked like.
Cheers!
Observations are as follows: Linseed Oil was the first bead to fail and evaporate. The water left an obvious mark on the wood that is a lighter color almost like the unfinnished block.
Control was 2nd to fail and evaporate. Obviously as this block wasnt treated it left a wet spot with minor discouloration, but i suspect this will dry off fine.
The Tung Oil failed 3rd and left almost no evidence of the drop. Leaving only the faintest ring of darker gummy stuff at the edge of where the bead of water was.
The BLO was the last to evaporate at 11 hours and 40 mins! The block is almost un-affected. Faint faint water circular mark, similar to the tung.
Thats what I saw. Ill post some pics and a little more detailed info later when I can i have pics with timestamps so i can place when each one dryed up and what it looked like.
Cheers!
And by "fail" all i mean is the drop lost its circular shape (was no longer a bead), spreading out and allowing quicker evaporation!
Below are two Enfield butt stocks that have been untouched since being sold out of service. The stock on the left is a No.4 Mk2 that was centered bedded by the South African military for competitive use. This stock had what appears to be a wiping varnish applied over the original raw linseed oil finish to seal the surface of the wood. The stock on the right is a un-issued No.1 MkIII* with the original raw linseed oil hot dip finish from new. It was originally made in 1918 but went through a FTR in 1953 and everything is new except the receiver.
The stock on the right is as issued and the stock on the left had the surface sealed so moisture and humidity changes would not effect the bedding forces and thus accuracy on this center bedded rifle.
The stock on the left is finished just like a wooden canoe, the interior of the wood is saturated with raw linseed oil and then surface coated to seal and further protect the wood. If this stock was used under combat conditions there is a good chance surface damage to the stock would allow water to enter the wood and stay there causing mold and wood rot.
All my "shooter" milsurps are finished like the center bedded No.4 Mk2 on the left but the top coat is a flat satin finish to "hide" that they are not 100% as issued military. When you seal the surface of the wood in this manor the air can not get to the raw linseed oil under it and allow it to dry. This keeps the wood cell structure hydrated and prevents wood shrinkage.
When only raw linseed oil is applied the wood requires reapplication to keep the wood hydrated and prevent wood shrinkage. Old raw linseed oil saying "Apply once a day for a week, once a week for a month, once a month for a year, and once a year for the rest of your life!" The British military had the troops oil their stocks once per month every month during WWII. Before this the armourers oiled the stock by placing the stocks in a tank of hot raw linseed oil, many times leaving the stocks to soak over night. (as per Capt. Peter Laidler Senior British Armourer in the U.K.)
The stock on the right is as issued and the stock on the left had the surface sealed so moisture and humidity changes would not effect the bedding forces and thus accuracy on this center bedded rifle.
The stock on the left is finished just like a wooden canoe, the interior of the wood is saturated with raw linseed oil and then surface coated to seal and further protect the wood. If this stock was used under combat conditions there is a good chance surface damage to the stock would allow water to enter the wood and stay there causing mold and wood rot.
All my "shooter" milsurps are finished like the center bedded No.4 Mk2 on the left but the top coat is a flat satin finish to "hide" that they are not 100% as issued military. When you seal the surface of the wood in this manor the air can not get to the raw linseed oil under it and allow it to dry. This keeps the wood cell structure hydrated and prevents wood shrinkage.
When only raw linseed oil is applied the wood requires reapplication to keep the wood hydrated and prevent wood shrinkage. Old raw linseed oil saying "Apply once a day for a week, once a week for a month, once a month for a year, and once a year for the rest of your life!" The British military had the troops oil their stocks once per month every month during WWII. Before this the armourers oiled the stock by placing the stocks in a tank of hot raw linseed oil, many times leaving the stocks to soak over night. (as per Capt. Peter Laidler Senior British Armourer in the U.K.)
jimenez, not all the water evaporated as some entered the wood as it would in the field. The purpose of using raw linseed oil is to allow the stock to "breathe" and allow any moisture in the wood to dry. If you seal the surface of the wood and moisture gets into the stock it will not dry properly and it will rot.
I'm not insulting your efforts and tests, I'm just saying the military conducted these test over 100 years ago and already decided what worked best. First you learn what and why the military used, and then you learn other methods that cheat a little, and are not too noticeable on your shooter grade milsurps rifles. And a good collector will spot any milsurp rifle you have refinished or altered.
Below is six year old triple mix of raw linseed oil, beeswax and turpentine that has not dried out in a sealed butter dish. Our fore fathers applied this mixture to their wooden linseed oil finish stocks and to the exposed metal parts of their firearms to protect them from the elements when hunting. If you would have applied this to your raw linseed oil block the water would still be beading up like a fresh wax job on your car. And it wipes off with turpentine and you can re-oil the wood with more raw linseed oil.
"I'm not insulting your efforts and tests, I'm just saying the military conducted these test over 100 years ago and already decided what worked best. First you learn what and why the military used, and then you learn other methods that cheat a little, and are not too noticeable on your shooter grade milsurps rifles. And a good collector will spot any milsurp rifle you have refinished or altered."
I missed the militarys tests a 100 years ago. This is me first learning what and why the military used.
I missed the militarys tests a 100 years ago. This is me first learning what and why the military used.
Below is what the American CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) has linked at their website for refinishing your M1 Garand stock. This would be "shooter grade" M1 rifles and not done to collector grade rifles.
Cleaning your M1 Garand Stock
http://www.garandgear.com/cleaning-your-m1-garand-stock
Stripping your M1 Garand Stock
http://www.garandgear.com/stripping-your-m1-garand-stock
Refinishing your M1 Garand
http://www.garandgear.com/new-finish-for-your-m1-garand
Below is a link to a modern "HOT OIL DIP TANK" using raw linseed oil.
http://www.norfolkoak.com/diptank/
Good work Jimenez. I'm reading this thread with much curiosity and interest.
Good info bigedp51. But I gotta say, your 1st post did seem to come off a little heavy handed.
Like jimenez, I'm learning all this stuff for the first time too, as I'm refinishing my boyds stock with tung oil. With work and family life, I'm hard pressed to scour the internet for every bit of info out there, let alone sift through it. The info you posted I am now am reading for the first time too. Thanks for providing those links!
Good info bigedp51. But I gotta say, your 1st post did seem to come off a little heavy handed.
Like jimenez, I'm learning all this stuff for the first time too, as I'm refinishing my boyds stock with tung oil. With work and family life, I'm hard pressed to scour the internet for every bit of info out there, let alone sift through it. The info you posted I am now am reading for the first time too. Thanks for providing those links!
Odd Shot
My apologies for being grumpy, I have made so many posting about raw linseed oil being applied and bedding the Enfield when I see someone say BLO I get frustrated. Once you understand that raw linseed oil penetrates deeper into the wood than chemically altered BLO which is a surface treatment designed to dry faster for impatient people wanting instant gratification.
On my first Enfield I listened to the resident expert and did it all wrong, I stripped the stock and then used a oil base stain that sealed the surface of the wood. I then used the product the resident expert recommended, "Behr Scandinavian Tung Oil Finish", the problem was this product contains no tung oil and is a wiping varnish.
When I was done with my first Enfield I had dried out the stock by cleaning it, and didn't replace the missing raw linseed oil. My fore stock was even more loose fitting than when I started and the rifle shot much worse. I then started researching the Enfield rifle, raw linseed oil and bedding the Enfield rifle.
Below is something I learned from the manuals and talking to armourers, if the bedding was loose on the Enfield rifle the first thing they did was drop the stock in a hot tank of raw linseed oil and let it soak overnight. In most cases the wood would swell from oil absorption and no or little shimming in the draws area was required.
A wallpaper wetting tray makes a good soaking tank for thirsty dry stocks.
(And a Canadian Long Branch fore stock is in the tray)
Oil Finishes: Their History and use
"Finishing is a mystery largely because of the confusion created by manufacturers in their labeling, and there’s no better example of this than the mislabeling of various “oil” finishes."
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/finishing/oil-finishes-their-history-and-use
All the information in the world is written in books, and all you have to do is read.
My apologies for being grumpy, I have made so many posting about raw linseed oil being applied and bedding the Enfield when I see someone say BLO I get frustrated. Once you understand that raw linseed oil penetrates deeper into the wood than chemically altered BLO which is a surface treatment designed to dry faster for impatient people wanting instant gratification.
On my first Enfield I listened to the resident expert and did it all wrong, I stripped the stock and then used a oil base stain that sealed the surface of the wood. I then used the product the resident expert recommended, "Behr Scandinavian Tung Oil Finish", the problem was this product contains no tung oil and is a wiping varnish.
When I was done with my first Enfield I had dried out the stock by cleaning it, and didn't replace the missing raw linseed oil. My fore stock was even more loose fitting than when I started and the rifle shot much worse. I then started researching the Enfield rifle, raw linseed oil and bedding the Enfield rifle.
Below is something I learned from the manuals and talking to armourers, if the bedding was loose on the Enfield rifle the first thing they did was drop the stock in a hot tank of raw linseed oil and let it soak overnight. In most cases the wood would swell from oil absorption and no or little shimming in the draws area was required.
A wallpaper wetting tray makes a good soaking tank for thirsty dry stocks.
(And a Canadian Long Branch fore stock is in the tray)
Oil Finishes: Their History and use
"Finishing is a mystery largely because of the confusion created by manufacturers in their labeling, and there’s no better example of this than the mislabeling of various “oil” finishes."
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/finishing/oil-finishes-their-history-and-use
All the information in the world is written in books, and all you have to do is read.
Last edited:
boss351cleveland
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Down by the river
I was told Pine tar was the best wood preservative and can be cut with linseed oil to make it thinner , was used back in the day in Scandinavia on boats ,docks and building timber .. I was reading about the oldest wood churches in the world the only reason they lasted so long was because of the pine tar treated timber ..
