The whole system is a tuning fork. The ground the bench sits on dampens or increases vibration. The bench, the rest. Where the rest contacts the stock front and back. The sand in the rest can dampen vibration. Heavier the better. Some barrels if too thick or long I would suspect are harder to tune compared to others. 22lr has one of the highest vibration sensitivities.
Litz says no evidence for tuners
- Thread starter grauhanen
- Start date
Excellent observations.
The tuning fork analogy is a good one for helping understand how the barrel reacts to the impact of the firing pin and the firing cartridge. Both combine to cause the barrel to vibrate. The other points are also important, and all too often not considered by shooters attempting to find the proper setting of a barrel tuner.
The bench, the rest, the contact points of the rifle on the rest and rear bag, probably even the sand will influence the way the barrel reacts and behaves. If these are not consistent from one shot to the next, then using a barrel tuner successfully will be difficult, if not impossible, to achieve.
The characteristics of the barrel itself play an important role. Some barrels are simply more difficult to tune than others, perhaps even impossible. If a barrel is too short, it won't respond to a tuner. The same problem occurs if it's too heavy (thick). Longer and slimmer barrels are more likely to be more responsive, and shooters have to find a compromise between length and barrel diameter that ensures tuner responsivenss with suitable weight. Typically rimfire BR shooters find this happy medium with barrels that are 24 - 26 inches long with approximately a .850 to .900 inch diameter.
Shooters using barrels that are short and heavy will likely experience frustration finding a tuner setting that works. Similarly, a long barrel that's very heavy will also experience difficulty. With long, slim barrels it may be easier to find a tuner setting, but these barrels are less than ideal for producing best performance and seem more sensitive to ammo variation and may require frequent tuner adjustment, both of which are self-defeating.
For reasons outlined above as well as in previous posts, it's difficult to believe that PRS-style shooting is conducive to effective tuner use. What's the alternative? Shooters must, as always, seek better precision by using the best rifles/barrels as possible and by lot selecting ammo for best performance. There are no shortcuts to rimfire accuracy.
Thr best gunsmith can put together the best parts in the world, with the best barreland tuner, with the most fantastic ammo he can find after exhaustive testing with a $6,000 scope on the finest of front rest and rear bags, and a first place standing in a match will go to Hell real quick with one bad wind call.
It is one of the biggest variables out there- that and the nut behind the bolt!
Cat
It is one of the biggest variables out there- that and the nut behind the bolt!
Cat
FatCatsDad
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Thr best gunsmith can put together the best parts in the world, with the best barreland tuner, with the most fantastic ammo he can find after exhaustive testing with a $6,000 scope on the finest of front rest and rear bags, and a first place standing in a match will go to Hell real quick with one bad wind call.
It is one of the biggest variables out there- that and the nut behind the bolt!
Cat
At this point that rifle is no better than a Cooey 60 with a Tasco scope and Federal bulk 22 ammo
Yup, I have seen a good shooter with a cheap set up win against some pretty high end rigs with mediocre shooters running them
Cat
Just because Mr. Cortina builds them and sells them is nor near enough reason for me to go out and buy one for any of my match rifles.
On a good day I can keep them all in the bull at
50 meters with a mess of x's that are 1mm wide with my three position rifle.
On a mediocre day it doesn’t matter if I was shooting a Br rimfire
Cat
A poster on RFC says Cortina told him something about tuners:
See post #1 here https://www.rimfirecentral.com/threads/have-you-tried-a-tuner-for-long-range.1266325/MarkS said:
Cortina's expertise must lie elsewhere. If he did in fact say this, he has much to learn about rimfire performance.
Tuners have been a in use in rimfire BR shooting for about two decades and serioius RFBR shooters continue to lot test. It hasn't become a thing of the past, and ammo can't be changed into something it's not.
Capstone Precision Group's "Lapua Rimfire Performance Center" is Lapua's tunnel testing facility in Mesa Arizona. Website link:
https://www.capstonepg.com/rpc/
In their "Important Notes: preparing you rifle for testing" info, link:
https://www.capstonepg.com/rpc/important-notes/
They state:
"Unless otherwise requested, your rifle will be removed from the stock and mounted on a machined bedding block to fit in the machine vise...."
and
"We recommend you leave tuners, bloop tubes, muzzle breaks, and front sights mounted on firearms for the testing process. Anything touching your barrel affects the harmonics, and we want to test your rifle in the same conditions that you would compete under."
They will test your rifle with it in your stock, if you want.
They have a cool 3:19 minute video on the testing center that goes with this website that you can watch from their website, or on YouTube, link:
Its well worth watching. One of the narrators is a competitive 3-position/prone shooter (aperture sights). In the video he mentions the critical importance of ammo lot selection (which is what the testing facility is for). Note he does use a tuner on his rifle in the video, although he does not mention it.
Another narrator in the video is the testing center operator who is also a competitive rimfire PRS shooter, and he does not use a tuner on his rifle in the video. I would expect that tuner induced small changes in group size for PRS may be negligible and not worth the extra weight, fuss, and snag-ability on bags, because the gong sizes are big enough, and the much larger variables are the wind, and physical steadiness control in body positions on the barricades.
The aperture sights 3-position/prone shooter has the same known positions and must be able to repeat the exact same high precision performance, shot after shot. (Same for benchrest). The new electronic rimfire scoring systems (in high end state of the art facilities), now use decimal place scores for the aggregates (no need for X's), which now divides the already small ISSF target rings into digital tenths! See the Olympic video example below for the electronic decimal scoring system in use.
In the Olympic smallbore competitions (indoor, no wind) I watched on YouTube, I noticed all the competitors use bloop tubes. The main purpose is for lengthening the sight radius. But a bloop tube is also a barrel weight and will affect harmonics tune, especially since its hanging off the end of the muzzle on long barreled rifles. It also looks from the videos that some shooters also use an adjustable tuner weight on the bloop tube, and some do not.
Example from the 2016 Rio Olympics, finals, 50m prone (12 minutes main highlights). I think the gold medalist used a tuner weight on his bloop tube:
Tuners absolutely "work" as per the laws of physics and thermodynamics, to change the barrel harmonics. "Change" does not necessarily mean for the better, it can go either way. As others have mentioned above, its then the task of the shooter to figure out the barrel position and settings to see how much it makes a measurable difference for their shooting discipline and ammo lot.
Its not a question of "if" a tuner (or barrel added weight) it makes a harmonics difference - it absolutely does. The question is "is the on-target difference measurable and meaningful for practical purposes, and in a positive way (better score or group size) for the specific discipline, with my lot of ammo, and oh ya, what are the wind conditions and can I read the flags well?".
https://www.capstonepg.com/rpc/
In their "Important Notes: preparing you rifle for testing" info, link:
https://www.capstonepg.com/rpc/important-notes/
They state:
"Unless otherwise requested, your rifle will be removed from the stock and mounted on a machined bedding block to fit in the machine vise...."
and
"We recommend you leave tuners, bloop tubes, muzzle breaks, and front sights mounted on firearms for the testing process. Anything touching your barrel affects the harmonics, and we want to test your rifle in the same conditions that you would compete under."
They will test your rifle with it in your stock, if you want.
They have a cool 3:19 minute video on the testing center that goes with this website that you can watch from their website, or on YouTube, link:
Its well worth watching. One of the narrators is a competitive 3-position/prone shooter (aperture sights). In the video he mentions the critical importance of ammo lot selection (which is what the testing facility is for). Note he does use a tuner on his rifle in the video, although he does not mention it.
Another narrator in the video is the testing center operator who is also a competitive rimfire PRS shooter, and he does not use a tuner on his rifle in the video. I would expect that tuner induced small changes in group size for PRS may be negligible and not worth the extra weight, fuss, and snag-ability on bags, because the gong sizes are big enough, and the much larger variables are the wind, and physical steadiness control in body positions on the barricades.
The aperture sights 3-position/prone shooter has the same known positions and must be able to repeat the exact same high precision performance, shot after shot. (Same for benchrest). The new electronic rimfire scoring systems (in high end state of the art facilities), now use decimal place scores for the aggregates (no need for X's), which now divides the already small ISSF target rings into digital tenths! See the Olympic video example below for the electronic decimal scoring system in use.
In the Olympic smallbore competitions (indoor, no wind) I watched on YouTube, I noticed all the competitors use bloop tubes. The main purpose is for lengthening the sight radius. But a bloop tube is also a barrel weight and will affect harmonics tune, especially since its hanging off the end of the muzzle on long barreled rifles. It also looks from the videos that some shooters also use an adjustable tuner weight on the bloop tube, and some do not.
Example from the 2016 Rio Olympics, finals, 50m prone (12 minutes main highlights). I think the gold medalist used a tuner weight on his bloop tube:
Tuners absolutely "work" as per the laws of physics and thermodynamics, to change the barrel harmonics. "Change" does not necessarily mean for the better, it can go either way. As others have mentioned above, its then the task of the shooter to figure out the barrel position and settings to see how much it makes a measurable difference for their shooting discipline and ammo lot.
Its not a question of "if" a tuner (or barrel added weight) it makes a harmonics difference - it absolutely does. The question is "is the on-target difference measurable and meaningful for practical purposes, and in a positive way (better score or group size) for the specific discipline, with my lot of ammo, and oh ya, what are the wind conditions and can I read the flags well?".
Just because Mr. Cortina builds them and sells them is nor near enough reason for me to go out and buy one for any of my match rifles.
On a good day I can keep them all in the bull at
50 meters with a mess of x's that are 1mm wide with my three position rifle.
On a mediocre day it doesn’t matter if I was shooting a Br rimfire
Cat
Of course not ! And Your prob a better shooter and much more knowledgeable than ERIK Cortinna is ! Most people are !
RJ
Tuner work. They are in use on Olympic gun for a decade.
They are used on the most accurate guns ..Benchrest gun. Period.
The winners use tuner..so the other can yap against it..who care..when you are in the low end of scale..nobody listen to looser ways of doing things and even care less for their opinions.
They are used on the most accurate guns ..Benchrest gun. Period.
The winners use tuner..so the other can yap against it..who care..when you are in the low end of scale..nobody listen to looser ways of doing things and even care less for their opinions.
Just because Mr. Cortina builds them and sells them is nor near enough reason for me to go out and buy one for any of my match rifles.
On a good day I can keep them all in the bull at
50 meters with a mess of x's that are 1mm wide with my three position rifle.
On a mediocre day it doesn’t matter if I was shooting a Br rimfire
Cat
When you are not competing you can say anything about your guns and skills. Internet keyboard master shooters abound.
Erik Cortina is a US National champion and a pro shooter and you are not. He know way better than you what work and what's not. He has his own tuner design but many dozen of other style exist.
It’s not only him…last European F class in Bisley..all shooters had tuner. Same at the SW National. And now..go watch the World F Class Championship videos that will be out next week. You will learn a few things.
At the Olympic level..no chance of even do the team if you don’t have the best gun and a tuner. ALL competitors and shooters have tuners. Not a single gun goes without it.
Room the net and you will see .22 National matches in Europe - Spain - Portugal- Israel - Australia - and all shooters have tuner.
Same at our Club level matches (BR50)…if your guns has no tuner or you don’t know how to tune..you don’t win.
People claiming they don’t work don’t own one or do not know how to use it - or don’t shoot good enough to see the difference when using it.
Last edited:
What is the best way to raise kids?
What is the best way to raise scores?
There are so many variables, that even the winner likely knows only a little more than the loser, and when the winner designs and builds a new rifle, he may get something wrong that may make him a loser - like adding a couple of inches of barrel length may do something weird, that just does not make sense.
It would be fun to measure all vibrations etc. that go on in a rifle - and then change the loading, and see what changes. There are likely some things happening that have not been discussed much - like how much does a barrel lengthen upon firing? - and what longitudinal vibrations are happening as the pressurized portion of the barrel gets longer and longer as the bullet travels down the barrel? Is this lengthening, and the following shortening the only wave in this direction, or are there others?
And does the barrel have a set pattern of sideways vibrations, or do these side-to-side vibrations stack up ahead of the bullet and become very high frequency before the bullet leaves, then at that instant, revert to a low frequency vibration?
Does a barrel have longitudinal harmonics like a barrel has sideways harmonics - and does the outer profile of a barrel change the harmonics of a certain barrel length?
Is it better to have the bullet leave the barrel at a high node, or at a low place in the vibrations amplitude?
Maybe it would be better to find an excellent shooting gun and see how it is vibrating, or maybe a lot could be learned by making a good shooting gun shoot badly - then try to reverse the damage back past the original state to, hopefully, an improved state.
I'm not here with answers, but only questions tonight - tuners likely affect more than we would expect - but there is likely some chance involved in success with them - fortunately, if it does not work out, you can try again - that part is different than raising kids.
What is the best way to raise scores?
There are so many variables, that even the winner likely knows only a little more than the loser, and when the winner designs and builds a new rifle, he may get something wrong that may make him a loser - like adding a couple of inches of barrel length may do something weird, that just does not make sense.
It would be fun to measure all vibrations etc. that go on in a rifle - and then change the loading, and see what changes. There are likely some things happening that have not been discussed much - like how much does a barrel lengthen upon firing? - and what longitudinal vibrations are happening as the pressurized portion of the barrel gets longer and longer as the bullet travels down the barrel? Is this lengthening, and the following shortening the only wave in this direction, or are there others?
And does the barrel have a set pattern of sideways vibrations, or do these side-to-side vibrations stack up ahead of the bullet and become very high frequency before the bullet leaves, then at that instant, revert to a low frequency vibration?
Does a barrel have longitudinal harmonics like a barrel has sideways harmonics - and does the outer profile of a barrel change the harmonics of a certain barrel length?
Is it better to have the bullet leave the barrel at a high node, or at a low place in the vibrations amplitude?
Maybe it would be better to find an excellent shooting gun and see how it is vibrating, or maybe a lot could be learned by making a good shooting gun shoot badly - then try to reverse the damage back past the original state to, hopefully, an improved state.
I'm not here with answers, but only questions tonight - tuners likely affect more than we would expect - but there is likely some chance involved in success with them - fortunately, if it does not work out, you can try again - that part is different than raising kids.
Hey Janeau READ my post again and actually comprehend what I said before you assume to know me or my competition history .
I never said they don't work, and actually have experience with tuning barrels 50 years ago.
Cat
coleman1495
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Whitecourt
I’ve played with a tuner on a 22lr a bit. My experience was that it certainly could change groups by changing the setting.
The problem was any given setting wouldn’t consistently work even if I was using the same brick of 22lr. I came to the conclusion it was a waste of ammo trying to set it up when the ideal setting was always changing.
The problem was any given setting wouldn’t consistently work even if I was using the same brick of 22lr. I came to the conclusion it was a waste of ammo trying to set it up when the ideal setting was always changing.
Of course not ! And Your prob a better shooter and much more knowledgeable than ERIK Cortinna is ! Most people are !
I never ever implied that I was even close to Erik Cortina's expertise, and never will . I have no idea how you got that from my post, you need to read it again .
Cat
Last edited:
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
What ammo are you using?
What temp range do you test over?
What distance do you do most of your testing/tuning?
these parameters can have a significant affect on consistency of results. the biggest issue with results changing is your ammo.
Jerry
Donny Fenn1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- East Kootenays
About a million years ago I used to subscribe to "Accurate Shooter" magazine/newsletter. To this day I remember an article where they talked about possibly cancelling BR50 as a competition. There was no way the 22LR ammo even in match rounds of the the same lot could be considered consistent enough for benchrest in a match setting. The uproar from rimfire shooters basically came down to "we know! But it's fun" so maybe Mr. Litz blaming the tuner comes down the same thing? You can set the tuner for one box or brick of ammo but the next box or brick will not be the same?
It is all in the perspective of course, scores in BR50 are naturally higher than in 50 meter prone as a general rule, but the English match and three position competitions are still great, everyone is on the same playing field within their chosen discipline .
Cat
