Long Range Precision - When Why and How .308?

Jerry is a shooting God in my mind and he speaks with the wisdom of many men...

As for 1000 yard competition, locally anyway, it is a combination of 6.5's, 7's and 7.62's that are the most successful. If I were personally going to build a dedicated 1000 yard gun, it would be a 7mm of some sort, either a 280AI or a 7 wsm to take advantage of the excellent 7mm Bergers. It was 7wsm's that dominated in Ireland this year. Conditions were brutal.

I personally can't afford to be lobbing 5 and 10 dollar bills down range in 20 round strings with the esoteric 338 - and bigger - magnums out there.
 
manitou210 CGN Regular "How can people say the big 30, will dominante this type of shooting the recoil becomes a major factor."

Hi Manitou210. I think you misunderstood my post. I agree that calibers smaller than .30 will dominate all long range shooting events, except for the unlimited class benchrest competitions where heavy recoil can be controlled. I won the "F" Class 900m long range match at Connaught in the mid 90's with 16 lb rifle chambered for the .300 Imperial Magnum. I used it for that one match only and it beat the hell out of me. I used a .308 Win. for all other matches. I currently compete with a .284 Win but I probably should give my old bones a break and go to a 6mmBR.



Boomer "I don't shoot competitively and I only give passing attention to the results of the long range shoots, but it seems to me that most of the winners of 1000 yard matches these days are shooting some sort of 6mm wildcat."

Hi Boomer; I do shoot competitively. The following two links will clear up your confusion. 6mm & 6.5mm calibers do win most of the "F" Class competitions out to 1000 yards but in the unlimited benchrest class the big .30's are king, shooting higher scores and smaller groups.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek057.html www.nc1000ydshooters.com
 
All competition that uses some form of gear has to deal with compromise. Shooting is no different.

Big bores offer better LR ballistics but come with more recoil, and barrel heat. Run super heavy rifles with muzzle brakes and the biggest boomers can be pussycats. Most unlimited BR matches require very few shots to be fired so little issue with barrel warping.

We don't talk about barrel wear because it is irrelevant when you want to place in the top three.

F class is a unique combo of disciplines which is gaining in popularity around the world. With that have come new 'mousetraps' to solve this riddle.

The 180gr Berger is a superb bullet. I shoot it in my 7 Mystic which is my version of the 280AI. At 2875fps, it sails out to 1000m with eerie repeatability. Accurate with excellent wind cutting ability. Is it perfect? NOT IN YOUR LIFE. Wind will still push it around.

I use it in a muzzled braked rifle otherwise, WAAYYY more fun then my shoulder wants to handle.

For F class, some monkeying around with recoil control, shooting this combo is workable but it comes with another big cost - barrel heat. If your barrel can't tolerate 25rds in 15mins of magnum amounts of powder, you may as well be shooting a water pistol.

Finding accurate barrels is one thing. Finding accurate barrels that are also super heat stable is something completely different. A 1/4 MOA barrel that becomes a 1MOA barrel after heating up some amount will drive you insane and your scores into the tank. You can't steer what you can't predict.

I feel that the momentum for F class will occur in the smaller cals especially the 6mm. We now have production bullets that are at or over 0.6BC. Will not be long before more come that equal the 6.5's 139/142gr slugs. Little issue getting these long 6mm bullets to 3000fps without excessive amounts of powder. Throat life may still stink but that's competition. Recoil is less.

Unless, every event is shot under horrendous winds, handling recoil and heat becomes far more important in the long run for most shooters. The 6 and 6.5's will prove overall the best place to be for the near future.

Build a fast 7mm by all means but use it for those windy days. Or just learn to dope conditions better :)

If someone can come up with an accurate 120ish gr 6mm bullet that can tolerate 2800 to 2900fps and have a real world BC of 0.65+, it will dominate LR F class/TR and similar sports.

But then if someone came up with 6.5 bullets with BC approach 0.7 (155ish gr), it might just dominate LR everything too. At this time, I see no new R&D in this cal which is a huge pity. Come on Lapua....

Jerry
 
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Thanks but no book writing in the near future. Just print out the posts and put into appropriate categories.

In my sig ARE three new articles for the upgraded long range hunting.com site. have a read, covers alot of different stuff you may find interesting.

I would put more of this info on my website but have no clue how to start.

Jerry
 
Jerry:
You sure do talk a lot!
How come I've never met you at a match?
Do you compete at all, ever, anywhere?

Alan Warner
 
Alan, in general I see no point in answering a post such as yours. I usually don't bother with posts that sound alot like trolling.

But I feel in a 'talkative' mood so...

Until kids came along, I competed for several years in small bore silhouette and made it to a AAA shooter in Silhouette and Hunters class.

Presently, doing LR shooting and have played a few years at the 1000m fun shoots in Sidley (Osoyoos). Won a couple of classes there.

F class is now my main focus and the upcoming Farky will be my next shoot.

If you really must do a better background check, why don't you chat with Andy at Higginson powder about how much powder I burn through a year. Might be enlightening.

Will we see you there?

So Alan, tell us a little about yourself and your shooting endeavors.....????

Jerry
 
Well Jerry:
It is obvious you don't get out much.

Should you happen to show yourself at a Provincial or Natl match in your home country, ask the likes of the VanPlews, or Marion, or Murry or Mulner or Paton or Robertson or DeMour or Kaljfes (sp) or Barber or Won Shui or Godderete or any others who are regulars at Connaught.

I am a life member of the DCRA, are you? And, it is not my home country.

My accomplishments are meager, Just a Silver (team) and a gold (team) in International Championships. Two bronze, one silver and a gold in Natl. Individual Comps.

I also build a few guns now and then. The equipment I make has contributed to smaller V and X rings. I've only been doing this for close to 40 years.

There is a bronze trophy made for a specific LR rifle match that , along with Jim Thomson, has a cast immage of myself. It is the America's Match Trophy.
The trophy was made by one of your countrymen, contracted by the NRA of America.

I'm sure it was random and for no significant reason my ugly face was chossen to represent the essence of TR shooting.

You have a trophy for 1/4 minute of beer can yet?

If you should show up at any comp, I will gladly give any advise you ask. TR and F Class comprizes the best people in the world. It is all about doing your best and helping anyone at any time.

The preperation you put in is directly related to what you get out. If you make less mistakes than all others, you win.

Alan
 
Thanks mystic for the helpful (as always) information.

@GG: um, congratulations on the high self esteem, I suppose...
 
Silverado said:
Thanks mystic for the helpful (as always) information.

@GG: um, congratulations on the high self esteem, I suppose...
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Agreed.
Jerry thanks for the info.
GG, all I can say is wow, just wow. I would have expected more from a man with your supposed credentials. No one likes a braggard, especially when he's trolling.
Actually, as a novice LR shooter looking to get into LR competitions, your attitude kind of left a bitter taste in my mouth towards shooting organizations such as DCRA, F, and TR Class competitions. I hope to God that all members do not have this elitist attitude like you.

You have a trophy for 1/4 minute of beer can yet?
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I mean come on. Really.
 
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As a newbie to the sport I have learned alot from reading Mystics posts.

I appreciate when someone who knows the sport well is willing to share his knowledge.

So thanks Jerry, keep doing what you're doing, most of us learn from you.

Oh and GG you're the greatest, tell me where you are signing autographs next 'cause I want one. :bigHug:

If you are any indication of the people participating in the sport, no wonder more people aren't getting involved.
 
Orvis said:
Agreed.
Jerry thanks for the info.
GG, all I can say is wow, just wow. I would have expected more from a man with your supposed credentials. No one likes a braggard, especially when he's trolling.
Actually, as a novice LR shooter looking to get into LR competitions, your attitude kind of left a bitter taste in my mouth towards shooting organizations such as DCRA, F, and TR Class competitions. I hope to God that all members do not have this elitist attitude like you.


I mean come on. Really.
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X2.
My first thought was "Christ I hope he's not typical of the shooters at Conaught" Thankfully I know a couple of other board members who show he is atypical.
 
It was a dark and stormy night and someone has just tried to crash the party. Oh... Hello GG, I'm sure if you thought about it you could find some positive input for this forum. Sorry, polishing your ego doesn't count and dumping on a fellow shooter without cause is just not acceptable here. If you must pick a fight with someone please choose a Democrate and you will have our full support.
 
Well, Jerry did ask...
I've never met Jerry, but have enjoyed his posts.
I know Alan, and his list of accomplishments is somewhat longer than he listed. He is extremely knowlegeable, and always willing to help out.
 
I'm glad the post was taken seriously, as was my intent in posting it. I have learned a lot from the posters and from the reference material provided, far more than I can digest at once. Thanks very much!
 
Hey GG,

Instead of being an a$$ why not make some useful or.....god forbid.... HELPFUL posts instead of putting down those are actually willing to share what they know with those of us who are new to the game and have a lot of learning to do.

Better yet.... go join http://www.gotrollsomewhereelse.com/

Jerry, keep on posting what you know, I am soaking it all in :D

Richard
 
On this I have to mention that Al Warner(CG) is considered one of, if not the best Palma, High Power and F Class gunsmiths in the world, as well as a top F class shooter and manufacturer(Warner Sights). Gerry Frazer, a mechanical engineeer and top long range shooter from B.C., calls him a genius. Al Warner has been gunmith to the U.S Palma Team and his comments are considered valuable to those participating in serious long range competitions.

Al Warner has been helping shooters for years, myself included and is one of the few people who actually knows what he is talking about.

Peter Dobson
Hirsch Precision Inc.
Lapua in Canada
 
Alan and Joe most certainly do not have the same personality. When Alan says something it may not always come across the way you would like but he is very rarely wrong.
 
No one is disputing Alan's credentials, accomplishments, or knowledge. What is in contention is his attempt to start a dispute with Jerry, a member who is more than willing to share any knowledge he has regarding LR shooting.
Like many have already stated in previous posts, a man like Alan, with all of his years of experience and wisdom in precision shooting, one would expect him to share his perspective on the matter, but instead his first post on this thread is....
Jerry:
You sure do talk a lot!
How come I've never met you at a match?
Do you compete at all, ever, anywhere?

Alan Warner
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Not exactly helpful information is it.
If Alan has some kind of beef with Jerry maybe he should take it up in private messages, but trying to slam him in this thread doesn't warrant any respect from me.
 
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