Long Range Precision - When Why and How .308?

Anyone who doubts Jerry's shooting credentials has never seen him shoot. He and Dennis Lapier "put on a clinic" at the last fall ISSF match in Kamloops. When those two slaughtered more v-bulls that anyone else, the rest of us rendered-mediocre shooters just watched from the sidelines in awe. In the end, those two were separated by 1 point.

My friends, Jerry practices what he preaches and his is a fantastic ambassador for the sport. I read all his posts from beginning to end and he has much expertise to share. You'll notice he pulls off great things with components that many shooters would be too much of a snob to use.

From a Jerry fan,

Ian
 
To all that have enjoyed my posts, Thanks. Do my best.

Unfortunately, family life has not allowed me to attend as many competitions as I would like. In time, that should get better.

however, to assume "I don't get out much", well.....you don't know me very well do you???? In fact, you don't know me at all.

I bust my fair share of primers and burn a few kegs of powder a year. Those that came to the LR fun shoot andn who shoot with me know all about it.

I plink, experiment, wildcat. Have an idea - go try it out. My posts are based on time and experience I have spent burning powder. No arm chair quarterback here. Is it perfect? Does it cover everything? No, but the scope might just surprise some.

At any rate, GG, I do recognise your name. Just wanted to confirm that it was you. Yes, you have been there, done that, even got a brass statue to prove it. You will likely forget more then many will ever learn.

I see that you joined this board in 2004 but have only a few posts of which you spent the last two giving me the gears. That's too bad.

Shooters like you are the well of information this sport is dying to draw from. Maybe posting isn't your thing. Maybe you only chat at large international competitions where you share and help new shooters from around the world. Who knows...

Unfortunately, the vast majority of shooters especially in Canada shoot in isolation. Numbers and distances will keep us apart. This small humble site is our main conduit to share ideas and experiences. To give a sense of community.

Please share your wealth of knowledge and experience. We all have much to learn from those like you. Get all those other shooters you mentioned to also participate as most we will never meet face to face.

If someone disagrees with anothers statement or information, make a post. Correct it with 'better' information. This just helps the sport improve.

The culture here doesn't approve of personal stabs and jabs. Especially when they are way off base. That is simply not our style. We have created an environment where no question is too stupid or simple and that the answers are helpful not condesending.

Participate and share your wealth of knowledge. It is needed to keep our sport alive and thriving.

Jerry
 
peterdobson said:
On this I have to mention that Al Warner(CG) is considered one of, if not the best Palma, High Power and F Class gunsmiths in the world, as well as a top F class shooter and manufacturer(Warner Sights). Gerry Frazer, a mechanical engineeer and top long range shooter from B.C., calls him a genius. Al Warner has been gunmith to the U.S Palma Team and his comments are considered valuable to those participating in serious long range competitions.

Al Warner has been helping shooters for years, myself included and is one of the few people who actually knows what he is talking about.

Peter Dobson
Hirsch Precision Inc.
Lapua in Canada
Click to expand...

Edit: I would rather he added to the topic with his experience rather than taking post shots at those that do help here.
 
Last edited:
A couple of points.
The big thirties rule at the 1000 yd BR matches for three reasons. First, the weight of the rifles makes them manageable. Second, not that many shots are fired (compared to "F" class) so barrel life is of less concern. Third, at the matches I attended, the competitors shoot blind. That is, they have no indication as to where their previous shot hit. If the competitor fired a group with a cluster of 9 shots and a flyer, he had no way of knowing which shot resulted in the flyer. So the cartridge with the least wind drift is going to be a distict advantage. In "F" class or in highpower, with the use of spotters, each shot is an education and the learning curve is steeper. As a consequence, competitors can score as well with what is, on paper, an inferior combination. On top of this shooting for group and shooting for score is worlds apart. When shooting 10 shots for group, the shooter wants to hit a pre-determined point 9 times. The first shot is free and establishes the hoped for point of impact for the other nine. Shooting for score, if that first shot is a nine, you can't fix it. One the other hand, shooting for score, an"x" is an "x". It scores the same whether it is a dead center "x" or a squeaker. 10 squeakers beat 9 center hits and a 10. In group shooting a 6 inch group beats the crap out of a 7 incher though they might score thet same. On the surface it may not seem that different- score or group- but, believe me, it is.
My other comment:
Alan Warner is undoubtedly a fine shot and a fine gunsmith but may, even now, be regretting the stroking of his own ego in public. Sometimes a person just lets his fingers go on the old keyboard without pausing to think of the effect. I have a lot more experience in rifle building than many and even shoot a bit but I've found, over the years, that everybody knows something I don't about both. I'm sure Alan could teach me lots and I would rather he had spent his time typing some valid information rather than just blowing the old horn.
I think it is entirely possible for a 308 to complete in "F" class at the highest levels. It is simply a matter of the shooter knowing what the wind is going to do to his bullet. To shoot an "X", the shooter must be able to know this to within about 1/2 moa. It matters not whether a given wind will drift the bullet 3 moa or 4 moa as long as the shooter KNOWS what the drift will be. The one real advantage to the cartridge with better wind bucking ability is , if the shooter makes a mistake, it might not cost him as much. In other words, the guy who underestimates the wind with the 308 might get a nine just outside the ten ring. The guy with the 6.5 shooting the high BC bullets might get a ten just inside. On the other hand, if the same shooters overestimate the wind value, it could go the other way, I guess. Probably the worst thing a guy can do is to shoot a bunch of different rifles with different charactaristics and ballistics like I do. This kind of guy just seems perpetually confused and soon becomes a laughingstock!
By the way, at the 2007 Frosty Farky, it is my intent to kick ass with a 308! Regards, Bill
 
Leeper said:
A couple of points.
The big thirties rule at the 1000 yd BR matches for three reasons. First, the weight of the rifles makes them manageable. Second, not that many shots are fired (compared to "F" class) so barrel life is of less concern. Third, at the matches I attended, the competitors shoot blind. That is, they have no indication as to where their previous shot hit. If the competitor fired a group with a cluster of 9 shots and a flyer, he had no way of knowing which shot resulted in the flyer. So the cartridge with the least wind drift is going to be a distict advantage. In "F" class or in highpower, with the use of spotters, each shot is an education and the learning curve is steeper. As a consequence, competitors can score as well with what is, on paper, an inferior combination. On top of this shooting for group and shooting for score is worlds apart. When shooting 10 shots for group, the shooter wants to hit a pre-determined point 9 times. The first shot is free and establishes the hoped for point of impact for the other nine. Shooting for score, if that first shot is a nine, you can't fix it. One the other hand, shooting for score, an"x" is an "x". It scores the same whether it is a dead center "x" or a squeaker. 10 squeakers beat 9 center hits and a 10. In group shooting a 6 inch group beats the crap out of a 7 incher though they might score thet same. On the surface it may not seem that different- score or group- but, believe me, it is.
Bill
Click to expand...

Now if this was not amazing info, you got me. A truly experienced shooter giving a simple clear explanation to share some pretty complex ideas. Thanks Bill.

The next post should be to give up your secrets on how to actually get those bullets where you want them to go. Closing my eyes when I shoot seems to be working for me but may not for others :D

As for shooting vastly different cals, you write a bunch of notes on stickies and paste them to your ammo box (pray it doesn't rain). But if it wasn't totally confusing, would it be as much fun?

From the cast of shooters attending the Farky, this is going to be a hoot. I am sure this will be a race of X's not just 10's.

Hope to see you all there.

Jerry
 
Bill, your last point is the most relevant to me, as getting to the range is what it's all about and good attitude on .308. To the original question, the .308Win, derived and for all intents and purposes is the same as 7.62 NATO or 7.62X51, and Fullbore in the Western world follows from military shooting and they were at one time dependent on military ammo. Still are at Bisley. Safety templates follow the military lead and once again, it's 9mm, 5.56 NATO
(.223Rem), 7.62 NATO(.308 Win.).338LM and .50 cal, as performance "breaks".

However, there is no sustitute to visiting the range and talking to experts with winning experience. Some, who come across as cranky on the net, can be the kindest in person.

Regards,

Peter
 
If you want my honest opinion, the F-open is killing the sport, this class is an equipment race and is becoming way to expensive to compete in...

In my book there should only be the F-F class (beside TR), when you win in F-F, when they shake your hand they want to know your name, in F-Open when they shake your hand, they want to know what caliber your shooting...
 
One thing that Bill didn't mention and is a strong strategy for score shooting, calibre. You get scored by where the bullet hole is. If it cuts the higher scoring line, you get the point.

Thus, lobbing the biggest bullets does offer a tangible benefit IF it doesn't cause other grief like recoil, barrel heat and so forth.

Many shooters will use a 308 bore because sooner or later, you gain a point. This is a disadvantage for the smaller bores especially the 22, and 6mm.

Some matches will normalize all cals to the 308 so every hole is measured with a 308 template. I think that is unfair to those that had to put up with the recoil in the first place.

For shorter distances, the amazingly capable and accurate 30BR is becoming a cartridge to be reckoned with. For something like 300m F(O), a hard cartridge to beat. Will get bounced around the further you go though.

Shooters thinking about a rifle specifically for Kamloops would do well to chat with Mick McPhee on his thoughts about this set up.

I am playing with the 6.5 as it allows me to go short and long range with one load and set up. A compromise for sure but what my wallet will allow at this time.

Seems to be working pretty good so far.

Ultimately, its the driver that determines the result. If you can effectively steer the bullet under the event conditions, you win. Doesn't matter what is being used.

High BC and high velocity just makes the condition doping more forgiving for mediocre dopers like me.

Arrowhead, all forms of shooting are getting pretty pricey. That is what prompted me to do my 6.5 Mystic F class rifles which you can read all about from my link below.

So far, the performance has been excellent far exceeding my expectations. All at a cost well below the current norms. Is it perfect? Of course not but it is a great bang for the buck and not hard to replicate.

Jerry
 
Last edited:
Arrowhead said:
If you want my honest opinion, the F-open is killing the sport, this class is an equipment race and is becoming way to expensive to compete in...

In my book there should only be the F-F class (beside TR), when you win in F-F, when they shake your hand they want to know your name, in F-Open when they shake your hand, they want to know what caliber your shooting...
Click to expand...

Not at all. That is like saying F-1 racing is killing NASCAR. You could shoot and win F(O) class with a .308. Get a 1:8 twist .30 cal barrel and shoot 220 gr SMK. You don't need to shoot a 6.5-.284, or a 7mm WSM to win F(O) but look at what the winners are using.
If you shoot any bullet weight over 156 gr in .308 or 81 gr in a .223 you are into the F(O) class anyway.
If you want to shoot something like a 6.5-.284 and don't mind spending money on barrels every 1200-1500 round, by all means fill your boots. If you do not want to spend the big bicks shoot F(F).


Every competitive sport is an equipment race. 15 years ago people were still shooting #4 Enfields with .308 barrels. Today it is RPA, Swings, Stolle, Barnards and what not. Let's let the F(O) class run it's course, it is an OPEN class.
 
Different calibers are what the open class is all about. Let's not forget, the original "F" class as conceived by George Farquharson was an open class. Anyone can shoot a 6BR if they want. I have competed (winning some and losing some) with a variety of cartridges including the 6BR, the 6.5x55, the 308, 30/06 and 303 British. That's part of the fun for me. Another part of the fun is competing with practical weight and configuration rifles using factory actions. I well recall one match where I was squadded with a fellow who was shooting a Model 70 actioned rifle and doing pretty well but not winning. He was complaining about the prevalence of custom actions, saying they should have to shoot in a separate class. I was well on the way to winning (a rare occurence to be sure) the long range with MY Model 70 so didn't really see the point. The real point is this: It matters not what caliber or action you use; the wind can still beat you or anyone else. Your ability to get the most out of your rifle, be it 308 or 6mm Dasher, and your ability to keep your head in the game will, in the end, do more than a custom action or a special cartridge to get you a win.
The top "F-O" class shooters are shooting various hot 6.5s and 7mm's because they like to experiment and look for an advantage. The truth is, the best shooters could be right in there shooting 308's if they chose to do so.
When it comes to getting the most out of a 308, I am still amazed by what the top hunter class BR shooters can do. The best of them are consistently shooting 10 pound 308s at the 5/16 moa level or better. It ain't easy and shows what a 308 can do with the right guy steering. By the way, the 30 cal advantage is really evident in Hunter BR. A 30 caliber will usually pick up 6 or 7 x's over a 6mm (Like the 300Meter "F" class, drop a point and you're probably done.)
I don't believe a 223-especially shooting heavy bullets, will shoot as well as a 308. That is, the best 308 will be more accurate than the best 223. I feel quite confident of being able to produce an honest 1/4 minute 308 but not a 223. On the other hand, the 223, like the 6BR is must easier to shoot than a 308 (recoil). Take your pick. Regards, Bill.
 
maynard, great that you brought up the use of heavy bullets in the 308. Something we don't pay attention cause most stay in the F(F) class. The US shooters can use any bullet and stay in F(TR), their version of F(F).

Some very interesting results pushing bullets from 208gr up to 220gr at velocities not far from a 300WM. That's pretty special tech- maybe a bit dangerous but it is pushing the limits of what is possible.

Big downside is recoil. That combo would be brutal for most shooters. You can't do well with a setup that rattles your teeth half way through a match.

When I did well at last years Farky, I had a few shooters come up wanting to know what magical setup or new gear I was using. When I showed them the rifle and the very pedestrian Stevens action, they left dissapointed. Too bad.

A good F rifle and great rifle is separated by a tenth or two MOA. A good wind doper and a great wind doper is worth up to two MOA.

Yet, shooters spend huge amounts of effort and money looking for that magical rifle, bullet and load that will propel them into the X ring. Hopefully, that will never happen or I'll go take up golf.

This is a shooting sport and shooting skill separates the top shooters. There isn't a single person that cannot show up with winning gear. For F class, that is not hard to do at all (consistent 1/2 MOA, that's it).

however, there are precious few that have the mental game and driving skills to keep them at the top of the match standings.

Choose a set up you can shoot and afford to practise with. Then go burn up ALOT of powder. The scorers don't care if you held off 1/4 min or 1. They just put that orange marker where you put the bullet.

Leeper, for S&G's I am putting together a fast twist 223 to see what type of accuracy I can extract using heavy Amax bullets. We all know what a 308 can do. now to see if the 223 can come close or beat it.

If it does well, I might brave enough to shoot it next year.

Jerry
 
Hi Arrowhead

Cutting off shooters who love the F/O equipment race won't help F/F competitors one wit but will only serve to spin them off to a seperate organization and our numbers will fall. Rather than reduce our options I would rather see a third "entry level" class added. Something like a factory varmint (F/V) class might encourage more new shooters to join our ranks. We need more shooters, not less. Keeping the costs down is the key . Maybe something like the following would do it.

F/V Equipment Limits
Rifle - Factory "As Issued" with a maximum manufacterers suggested retail price of $800.00
Scope Sight - a maximum manufacterers suggested retail price of $500.00
Calibre - No restriction except those imposed by the range operators.
Ammunition - factory or handloaded
Front Support - Bipod with maximum maufacterers suggested retail price of $150.00
Rear Support - Sand bags only.
Trigger Weight - nothing less than 2lb trigger pull.
Rifle may be bedded, barrel floated and trigger adjusted to no less than 2 lbs - no other modifications allowed.


This is only an off the cuff suggestion and if serious consideration were given to adopting this third option some fine tuning of the rules would likely be necessary. A "Factory" class would soon get the attention of the manufacturers with the added benefit that they are more likely to support our competitions with prizes/funding etc. It may also give them incentive to improve their product.
 
Gunster,
We have a class for this. It is called F(M) for Manufactured. Off the shelf rifle(no custom shop guns), any factory caliber, any sight. Original stock and barrel, but the stock can be re-shaped and the barrel can be re-crowned. Action can be bedded.
Plenty of people have rifles like this already. The big question is, how do we get them out to compete? How do we get them off the 100 yard firing point and out to 1000 yards?
 
Hi Maynard

The F/M class is good news but it must be a ORA (Ontario) class only. DCRA rule book only lists F/F and F/O classes. I must have been sleeping again when F/M happened. Tell me more about this.

About your comment on how to encourage new shooters to show up. To my knowledge the DCRA has never had an agressive promotional plan to recruit new shooters. Sure, we talk about it but there is no serious plan to achieve results. As you say, many shooters have equipment that would be competative in the F/M class but most of them have never heard of the DCRA, what kind of shooting we do or who to see about joining. Someone needs to plan visits to every gun club in the country and explain who we are, what we do and how much enjoyment there is in competative shooting. Entry level fun shoots are necessary to encourage those who are intimidated by the "everybody is watching me" thing. It's a lot of work but it must be done if we are to survive and grow.

A few more ranges would also help. Many prospective shooters are put off by long travel times. I know, more work & money but it has to be done.
 
Ian Robertson said:
Alan and Joe most certainly do not have the same personality. When Alan says something it may not always come across the way you would like but he is very rarely wrong.
Click to expand...

I know of Alan, his accomplishments and his company, I was just saying he sure didn't think about what he was typing to come across like that, all passion, no tact or forethought. That's all, continue on.
 
Gunster,
F(M) class was an ORA concept. The DCRA will make a class and give out prizes if 3 or more people show up to shoot it. The only way to join the DCRA is to be a co-joint member of your PRA or the NCRRA. So recruiting new shooters is left in the hands of the PRA's. The ORA has had F(M) for 2 years now and other provinces are following suit.
I think the problem with getting new shooters out is the time thing. Most guys would rather roll in about 11 am, blast away for an hour and head home.
When you tell them they need to be at the range between 8:00-8:30 and plan to spend the whole day or weekend, most have other things to do.
Every day I see on this forum, a guy that has a rifle that will shoot WWB into 1/4 MOA groups all day long. I never see these guys and their rifles show up at a match to prove it.
We have the class for them to shoot, we have access to ranges out to 1000 yards. We have people that will spend the time to help them out and be a mentor, but they don't show up.
I have even offered free 7.62mm IVI or DA ammo for the match, offered to for go the Guest fee (match fees only), again no takers.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom