Long Range Weapon Recommendations

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Mako22 said:
thx for the info *Tenguns*

As for the others that "skim-read" my original post, maybe re-read it and come to a better conclusion as to what i was asking.
I wanted advice on what i could get to push me out to 1500-2000yds. (economically)
And as clarified in a few posts, it is not 1-1.5" groupings....it's MOA.
These are not 100% each time out, this is at a 60-70% variable, which are observed when i have better days out than others (obviously under better weather conditions, or whatever other demons aren't coming into play). (again, as stated a few times thoughout this thread)
Stock rifle, surplus ammo, yes. And it is possible to be a good shot with something stock. If i was a competitive shooter, then obviously i would dump a morgage payment into a full setup......but like previously stated, i'm NEW....wanting advise and mentoring......but it sounds like some egos and #### swinging started happening.

I was under the impression, and was told by the member that referred me here, that i would get the guidance and assistance i was looking for. All i had to do was state what i was up to, the results i was getting, and with what gear, and i'd be pointed in the direction to get me on course. I am sure there are members that would help someone of my below amature status bring some skills up an possibly one day get to a competitive level.
Sorry i didn't belly up to the table with a Lupua .338 or .50cal and brag about how good i am. Looks like honesty, although i don't know the appropriate terminology that you use in this forum, is not what they're looking for here.

SO, i'll just keep shooting my STOCK .308, with my SURPLUS Romanian/Czech ammo, and getting the results i reported originally.
I'm done.
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Mako22, no need for that. Dicks WILL swing no matter what you say or do.
As stated above by other members, take the time to read Brian Litz's books, it will get you started down the right path.

As far as personal shooting skills are concerned, that is only a portion of the equation.
Groups are usually 5 rounds on target ONLY, that's what most people consider a group.
It is then measured center to center at the widest point.
Most times, groups are given at 100 yards, if not, distance should be stated.
One MOA = approx. 1"@100 yards....2@200....3@300....etc...10"@1000 yards.

Just about everyone on this forum has shot or has seen someone shoot surplus (of any type or make)
and the results you are getting are just not what most would expect or even dream of getting.
Even with the best match factory ammo available on the market, your results are out of the ordinary.

Could you please give me the correct center to center size (at largest point) of your 5 shot goups?
Say over 5 targets, that means 25 rounds and 5 group sizes for 1000 yards?

I can look in my files as I write this and pick out several 26" 28" 5 shot groups at 1000yards that I kept because I thought they were pretty good for my skill level.

So, dont give up un us so easily, we get grumpy at times, and some of us could be on our period.
 
luckygunner is a US business. They export?

There was some very accurate Czech surplus years ago. CIA was selling it. Dried up pretty fast. Subsequent shipments were OK, but not as accurate.
One batch of Czech 7.62x51 was corrosive.
The Czech ammunition was not NATO spec.

The Hirtenberg 7.62x51 is fine ammunition.

The Portuguese FNM 7.62x51 was also very good.

The Chinese ball currently available is cheap. Goes bang. It is not particularly accurate.
 
tiriaq said:
luckygunner is a US business. They export?

There was some very accurate Czech surplus years ago. CIA was selling it. Dried up pretty fast. Subsequent shipments were OK, but not as accurate.
One batch of Czech 7.62x51 was corrosive.
The Czech ammunition was not NATO spec.

The Hirtenberg 7.62x51 is fine ammunition.

The Portuguese FNM 7.62x51 was also very good.

The Chinese ball currently available is cheap. Goes bang. It is not particularly accurate.
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Just what I thought.........Romanian 7.62x51 not even on the distant radar..........
 
I have only ever seen Norinco .308 surplus. Not sure how you get Ammo from Texas shipped up here. Not that much more expensive than new Federal anyway.
 
Chago said:
Please god close this thread. First he said it's my first post and I'm looking for a gun to shoot 2000 yards. I already was smelling some manure but had to read more. Then he says he shoots 1" groups at 1000 yards with a 308. The. He said he does that with surplus ammo, which I can't even get 1" group at 100 yards with surplus. Then he tells me he does it out of a $500 factory rifle. Like honestly what's next? He does it standing free hand with iron sights.
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^^^ THIS ^^^ The only "Czech or Romanian" ammo the OP is getting for $260-$300/1440rds is 7.62x39. The only way you get that to shoot out of a .308 is wrap it in paper to take up the extra space in the chamber, like what I do. But I can only get 2.5 MOA at a 1000 yards with this method. Even then, the only x39 I have seen come in 1440Rd crate is Norc. He is so obviously full of it. At least this thread was good for a laugh.

-Hicks

** Edit ** Do not try and wrap 7.62x39 in paper and shoot it in a .308, I was being facetious.
 
Johnny Boom said:
Welcome to CGN. I am sure that you will get some interesting replies soon. :)

If you are getting 1-1.5" groups at 700-1000 yards there is very little advice I can offer.

I would look around for your local Precision Rifle and/or F-class association. They will give you good information, not like some of the dubious things you read on the net.
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Well, looks like you got some interesting replies! :D

Seriously though, I don't understand why there's such a pile on to a novice shooter who got some terminology wrong. We all had to start somewhere. That being said, reading Litz is really good advice. So is going to accurateshooter.com and sniper's hide to do some research.

I will still stress my original advice and that is to go and find your local long range shooting association and get involved with them. If you are lucky you will have someone like Tactical Teacher who is willing to help the noobs have fun and be safe without taking a giant dump on them.
 
Johnny Boom said:
Well, looks like you got some interesting replies! :D

Seriously though, I don't understand why there's such a pile on to a novice shooter who got some terminology wrong. We all had to start somewhere. That being said, reading Litz is really good advice. So is going to accurateshooter.com and sniper's hide to do some research.

I will still stress my original advice and that is to go and find your local long range shooting association and get involved with them. If you are lucky you will have someone like Tactical Teacher who is willing to help the noobs have fun and be safe without taking a giant dump on them.
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Thx for the help.
I'm gonna leave this thread at that.
Whenever i say anything it seems to open up a barage of finger pointing in my direction that i don't know what i'm talking about...........and guess what......... I don't.
I came here for some help, and a couple of you have been great.
As for the others, i only wish STRONG cross winds in your future.


(Admin - Please archive this thread.........it's been beaten and abused)
 
Until about 20 years ago, DCRA and PRA fullbore competitors shot issue ball. Dominion Arsenal, then IVI. There were all sorts of tricks employed to get 7.62x51 NATO ammunition to perform well to 900y.
It was discovered that for best accuracy, .300/.308 barrels were not the way to go. It became common to use barrels that were a couple of thousandths tighter. Chambers were also reamed for best results; the leade might well make contact with the ogive.
Issue ball could not match the results obtainable with commercial or handloaded target ammunition.
A number of years ago, we experimented with a scoped TRW M-14, that had been properly bedded and set up. Five different makes of 7.62x51 ball were tested, from the bench. Best results were obtained with the Czech ammunition I mentioned above. About 1 1/4 minutes. Least impressive was the IVI, at 3 moa. LC, FNM, and Yugoslav surplus were in between.
Anyway, military 7.62x51 is not a particularly good choice for long range shooting.
An upgrade that might be worth testing would be Mexican Match, the ball bullet being replaced with a match bullet, with adjustments to the powder charge.
 
Yes. For extended range shooting, a bullet with a high BC, at a good velocity is needed. 7.62x51 ball, with its short, light bullet is a poor choice.
Doesn't need to be .338 or bigger, unless payload is important.
 
Johnny Boom said:
Well, looks like you got some interesting replies! :D

Seriously though, I don't understand why there's such a pile on to a novice shooter who got some terminology wrong. We all had to start somewhere. That being said, reading Litz is really good advice. So is going to accurateshooter.com and sniper's hide to do some research.

I will still stress my original advice and that is to go and find your local long range shooting association and get involved with them. If you are lucky you will have someone like Tactical Teacher who is willing to help the noobs have fun and be safe without taking a giant dump on them.
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terminology??? really??? so terminology is where he made a mistake.

OP I apologize for my behaviour and those who have offended you. We should have gone over the etiquette and terminology first. Cause the $500 rifle shooting a non existent package size of a surplus ammo (besides norinco) in 308 at 1000 yards at 1 MOA, is totally believable. By someone who is on here asking what caliber would get him to 2000. I don't mean to keep beating the dead horse. Cause he is thoroughly beaten by now. But someone who understands ballistics of any caliber, who is capable of shooting 5 bullets in less then 10" at 1000 yards, who has the skill and know how. Does not need to ask what caliber do I need to get to 2000. This is the typical what caliber do I need to kill a moose at 900 yards, oh don't worry I'm good enough. If someone is that good they don't need to ask on a forum what caliber is needed.

Sorry Mako, but if your thread was, I want to build a rifle in a caliber that can shoot to 2000 yards. You would not have got the response you did. I don't think you realize how good guys are who are capable of shooting 1 MOA at 1000 yards with $5000 rifles, $3000 scope and extensive testing of loads and bullets really are. I don't think Rob Furlong could do what you have stated above.


Edit:

And to give you a serious answer to your question. Since you said no 50 BMG, 338 LApua is the only answer. Yes a 300 win mag or wsm could get there, but your lobbing it and its getting sub sonic. Once sub sonic there is no way to control it. Wind will toss it around like a balloon. A 308 at 1000 is even sketchy, hence the response from everyone. Most 308 loads are right at there peak at 1000 yards. Most loads are sub sonic by 1000. All surplus ammo for sure would be sub sonic at 1000. 338Lapua was designed for this as was the 50BMG.
 
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Chago said:
terminology??? really??? so terminology is where he made a mistake.

OP I apologize for my behaviour and those who have offended you. We should have gone over the etiquette and terminology first. Cause the $500 rifle shooting a non existent package size of a surplus ammo (besides norinco) in 308 at 1000 yards at 1 MOA, is totally believable. By someone who is on here asking what caliber would get him to 2000. I don't mean to keep beating the dead horse. Cause he is thoroughly beaten by now. But someone who understands ballistics of any caliber, who is capable of shooting 5 bullets in less then 10" at 1000 yards, who has the skill and know how. Does not need to ask what caliber do I need to get to 2000. This is the typical what caliber do I need to kill a moose at 900 yards, oh don't worry I'm good enough. If someone is that good they don't need to ask on a forum what caliber is needed.

Sorry Mako, but if your thread was, I want to build a rifle in a caliber that can shoot to 2000 yards. You would not have got the response you did. I don't think you realize how good guys are who are capable of shooting 1 MOA at 1000 yards with $5000 rifles, $3000 scope and extensive testing of loads and bullets really are. I don't think Rob Furlong could do what you have stated above.
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d:h:

Don't mind Chago, he's actually a nice guy in person, but I think his Savage that doesn't always go bang when it should may be driving him crazy! ;)
 
Chago said:
terminology??? really??? so terminology is where he made a mistake.

OP I apologize for my behaviour and those who have offended you. We should have gone over the etiquette and terminology first. Cause the $500 rifle shooting a non existent package size of a surplus ammo (besides norinco) in 308 at 1000 yards at 1 MOA, is totally believable. By someone who is on here asking what caliber would get him to 2000. I don't mean to keep beating the dead horse. Cause he is thoroughly beaten by now. But someone who understands ballistics of any caliber, who is capable of shooting 5 bullets in less then 10" at 1000 yards, who has the skill and know how. Does not need to ask what caliber do I need to get to 2000. This is the typical what caliber do I need to kill a moose at 900 yards, oh don't worry I'm good enough. If someone is that good they don't need to ask on a forum what caliber is needed.

Sorry Mako, but if your thread was, I want to build a rifle in a caliber that can shoot to 2000 yards. You would not have got the response you did. I don't think you realize how good guys are who are capable of shooting 1 MOA at 1000 yards with $5000 rifles, $3000 scope and extensive testing of loads and bullets really are. I don't think Rob Furlong could do what you have stated above.


Edit:

And to give you a serious answer to your question. Since you said no 50 BMG, 338 LApua is the only answer. Yes a 300 win mag or wsm could get there, but your lobbing it and its getting sub sonic. Once sub sonic there is no way to control it. Wind will toss it around like a balloon. A 308 at 1000 is even sketchy, hence the response from everyone. Most 308 loads are right at there peak at 1000 yards. Most loads are sub sonic by 1000. All surplus ammo for sure would be sub sonic at 1000. 338Lapua was designed for this as was the 50BMG.
Click to expand...


Im always a nice guy, I was even being nice in my posts. You should see when I get mad LOL

Since I have invented my own little brass drier, it always goes bang now. Took bullet cases cut a hole so the brass is exposed from the top, but upside down. Got my HVAC guy to make me a little sheet metal funnel that I connect to a hair dryer...shhhhh don't tell my wife. I run it for about 5 Minutes after they have already sat out air drying. Never had a click yet.

And actually I'm pissed because last week got cancelled. I need my fix of long range
 
Brutus said:
And did we miss the explanation how someone in Canada got luckygunner, a US business, to magically send some ammo across our border??

Something is wrong here.......
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The person who brought it up escaped into the shadows realizing he said too much LMAO
 
Chago said:
The person who brought it up escaped into the shadows realizing he said too much LMAO
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beating a dead horse back to life..............

I never said i was getting ammo from LuckyGunner "shipped" ACROSS the border.
Luckily i have family in Blaine WA, so i get it shipped to them, then drive down and bring it back across.........4 hour round trip, and a stop at Jack in the Box.

You are allowed to bring ammo across the border......

The Explosives Act sets limits on the amount of ammunition and ammunition components that may be imported without an import permit. Generally, the Explosives Act allows individuals to import up to 5,000 cartridges of non-prohibited ammunition for personal use without an import permit.
More information is available on the website of Natural Resources Canada (NRCan), or by calling the Explosives Regulatory Division of NRCan at the appropriate number listed on their website. An import permit may be required for smaller amounts in order to comply with the laws of the exporting country.

And as for the Romanian Ammo.....that's what i am assuming it was.
It came with the Remington when i bought it in a private sale.
There were 2 different kinds in the box with 2 different head stamps (some even had chrome/silver casings, not brass). I assumed it was "romanian", because the guy said it was "Corrosive" ammo. And from what i've heard, a lot of the romanian stuff was corrosive.
They said MS-66-59, and 7.62 R1 M1 A79 ......
 
Sorry mako I didn't even realize it was you who brought up the USA ammo. I thought someone else brought it up and left. But in terms of what you said I really don't know the rules so won't comment. But if I know correctly we can't even bring over a scope, stock, magazines, anything. So I can't imagine you can carry over ammo. Again I'm not sure of this skmeone will chime in.
 
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