Looking for NR "black rifle" or Green

Last add to this thread for me.

It seems to me like superior accuracy is an attribute sought out based on my understanding of the OP's question.
These rifles are not any longer or in most cases have never been 'combat rifles' - they are sporting rifles emulating their service brethren. If you are happy to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars on a rifle capable of arguably marginal accuracy of 4 moa, fill your boots.
 
beltfed said:
Last add to this thread for me.

It seems to me like superior accuracy is an attribute sought out based on my understanding of the OP's question.
These rifles are not any longer or in most cases have never been 'combat rifles' - they are sporting rifles emulating their service brethren. If you are happy to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars on a rifle capable of arguably marginal accuracy of 4 moa, fill your boots.
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See, for me accuracy is not as important as it seems like it is for you. I just want rifles that'll score hits on man sized targets 100% of the time within 400m. For that, 3-4MOA is all I need. If I want tack driving accuracy, I have a PRS for that. And the OP asks, the most durable (probably Vz.58, although the SL8 is a contender, as would be a Valmet or Tavor, maybe the APC??), easy to maintain (probably Vz, maybe XCR??) and accurate (anything other than Vz. lol (except Tavor which is around the same)). There is no one answer to this question he proposes, and only he can find the balance of durable, maintenance, accuracy, and weight that he wants. This is why consulting the internet for definite answers is kinda dumb. Opinions are one thing, but when we start trying to say "the Classic Green is the best" then you come under suspicion and derail the thread with anger because of invested ego.

When people invest their egos into a gun it's a bad situation, and I see it a lot here in Canada, probably because we don't want to think we sunk like $3K into an inferior platform to what buddy X, Y, or Z got. This thread is the result. No gun is better than another, it all depends on what constitutes "better" to you. To me, it's a gun that's 3-2 MOA, and tough as **** (think passing AKOU 5K testing tough). I have said gun. It has a host of other problems though. So will any rifle mentioned here.
 
p.Rundle said:
See, for me accuracy is not as important as it seems like it is for you. I just want rifles that'll score hits on man sized targets 100% of the time within 400m. For that, 3-4MOA is all I need. If I want tack driving accuracy, I have a PRS for that. And the OP asks, the most durable (probably Vz.58, although the SL8 is a contender, as would be a Valmet or Tavor, maybe the APC??), easy to maintain (probably Vz, maybe XCR??) and accurate (anything other than Vz. lol (except Tavor which is around the same)). There is no one answer to this question he proposes, and only he can find the balance of durable, maintenance, accuracy, and weight that he wants. This is why consulting the internet for definite answers is kinda dumb. Opinions are one thing, but when we start trying to say "the Classic Green is the best" then you come under suspicion and derail the thread with anger because of invested ego.

When people invest their egos into a gun it's a bad situation, and I see it a lot here in Canada, probably because we don't want to think we sunk like $3K into an inferior platform to what buddy X, Y, or Z got. This thread is the result. No gun is better than another, it all depends on what constitutes "better" to you. To me, it's a gun that's 3-2 MOA, and tough as **** (think passing AKOU 5K testing tough). I have said gun. It has a host of other problems though. So will any rifle mentioned here.
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I'm even easier. It just has to hit a dinner plate quick and easy from the muzzle to 200 yards and be non-restricted and STANAG compatible.
 
I don't remember saying I love shooting off a bench.... Not sure why you keep repeating that..... nor did I ever call my DCR a benxhrest lazer.
 
p.Rundle said:
See, for me accuracy is not as important as it seems like it is for you. I just want rifles that'll score hits on man sized targets 100% of the time within 400m. For that, 3-4MOA is all I need. If I want tack driving accuracy, I have a PRS for that. And the OP asks, the most durable (probably Vz.58, although the SL8 is a contender, as would be a Valmet or Tavor, maybe the APC??), easy to maintain (probably Vz, maybe XCR??) and accurate (anything other than Vz. lol (except Tavor which is around the same)). There is no one answer to this question he proposes, and only he can find the balance of durable, maintenance, accuracy, and weight that he wants. This is why consulting the internet for definite answers is kinda dumb. Opinions are one thing, but when we start trying to say "the Classic Green is the best" then you come under suspicion and derail the thread with anger because of invested ego.

When people invest their egos into a gun it's a bad situation, and I see it a lot here in Canada, probably because we don't want to think we sunk like $3K into an inferior platform to what buddy X, Y, or Z got. This thread is the result. No gun is better than another, it all depends on what constitutes "better" to you. To me, it's a gun that's 3-2 MOA, and tough as **** (think passing AKOU 5K testing tough). I have said gun. It has a host of other problems though. So will any rifle mentioned here.
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I'm not all about accuracy, at least not for every rifle type I have or have tried. There is always give and take and everyone has their threshold of what is ok and what is not.
I get that a Tavor for example is a service rifle designed for vehicle and fibua type operation. I just don't accept that it wasn't made accurate due to current manufacturing tolerances, technology and the costs of the rifles. On the other hand I gladly accept the accuracy offered by rifles such as the SKS and the available surplus ammo for it.

I will point out though that if a requirement is to hit a man sized target up to 400m with near 100% accuracy, that is actually a pretty big ask when you start adding in variables such as ammunition, shooting position, weather, wind and shooter.
That 4moa gun quickly turns into a 6moa gun with 2moa ammo, and climbs to 12moa with an unsupported shooting position of 6moa, and then you add wind or rain or mirage or....
Anyhow, it may start the gears turning that the mechanical accuracy of the base - the rifle - is pretty important after all...especially when you start talking about a budget of $2500-3500. Ymmv as always.
 
I am very happy with my Robinson XCR-L .223 in keymod. It is pretty and it plinks hard! Have about 1500 rounds through it and I'm very pleased with it, its ergonomics are great, the only issue I have with it is that it isn't the lightest gun around. I'm shooting in the 1moa range with it, when I'm on my game! I am eyeballing the X-95 like crazy as I want a bullpup! So maybe we should make a trade!
 
beltfed said:
I'm not all about accuracy, at least not for every rifle type I have or have tried. There is always give and take and everyone has their threshold of what is ok and what is not.
I get that a Tavor for example is a service rifle designed for vehicle and fibua type operation. I just don't accept that it wasn't made accurate due to current manufacturing tolerances, technology and the costs of the rifles. On the other hand I gladly accept the accuracy offered by rifles such as the SKS and the available surplus ammo for it.

I will point out though that if a requirement is to hit a man sized target up to 400m with near 100% accuracy, that is actually a pretty big ask when you start adding in variables such as ammunition, shooting position, weather, wind and shooter.
That 4moa gun quickly turns into a 6moa gun with 2moa ammo, and climbs to 12moa with an unsupported shooting position of 6moa, and then you add wind or rain or mirage or....
Anyhow, it may start the gears turning that the mechanical accuracy of the base - the rifle - is pretty important after all...especially when you start talking about a budget of $2500-3500. Ymmv as always.
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From various online reports, I don't think the x95 is 4moa gun + 2moa ammo, it is more like ~3~4 moa (gun+ammo) with a range of ammo.
 
beltfed said:
I'm not all about accuracy, at least not for every rifle type I have or have tried. There is always give and take and everyone has their threshold of what is ok and what is not.
I get that a Tavor for example is a service rifle designed for vehicle and fibua type operation. I just don't accept that it wasn't made accurate due to current manufacturing tolerances, technology and the costs of the rifles. On the other hand I gladly accept the accuracy offered by rifles such as the SKS and the available surplus ammo for it.

I will point out though that if a requirement is to hit a man sized target up to 400m with near 100% accuracy, that is actually a pretty big ask when you start adding in variables such as ammunition, shooting position, weather, wind and shooter.
That 4moa gun quickly turns into a 6moa gun with 2moa ammo, and climbs to 12moa with an unsupported shooting position of 6moa, and then you add wind or rain or mirage or....
Anyhow, it may start the gears turning that the mechanical accuracy of the base - the rifle - is pretty important after all...especially when you start talking about a budget of $2500-3500. Ymmv as always.
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Fair enough. If you're in the market for a black gun, let me know if you want to test a Vz, and you can try mine. I live in YYC too
 
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1bigrn said:
The Black Rifle category is always changing with new non-restricted offerings being imported. In the past I owned the classic green and liked it, I have never liked the look of the Tavor, preferring the more classic look of other rifles. Bushmaster now has the DMR and there are now Canadian built rifle.

With all the offering what is the most easy to maintain, durable, accurate offering available?
Any why should I buy it? Budget wise I would be looking between $2500-$3500 without accessories.
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A military composed to drafted personnel is one often times composed of people who just want to get their service over with and go home. They are not interested in maintaining their firearms or honing their shooting skills. (A professional military is a little different, here we are talking of drafted military personnel.) So immediately all the firearms not issued by military forces mostly composed of compulsory service (or at least were composed of drafted personnel when the firearm was selected) fall to the side. Sorry, but these organizations have spent millions on researching this question, so don't waste your time.

Thus we are left with the SL8 (internally very similar to the G36 in service in Germany, Latvia, Lithuania, (they had the draft or national service when the firearm was brought into use)), the Tavor, in use by Israel (draft military), and the Swiss Arms rifles, in use in the Swiss confederation (also a draft military).

Now that "durable" and "easy to maintain" are looked after, we can look at "accurate". The Tavor is not very accurate (likely because there isn't much need for long-distance engagements in the design specifications), so we must focus on the SL8 and the Swiss Arms rifle. Between them, the SL8 comes with a free-floated heavy barrel, while the Swiss Arms comes with a military grade barrel that is not free floated. Logically, due to accuracy coming from everything being in exactly the same physical space with each shot, a heavy barrel reduces the flex and motion in the barrel due to both stiffness and greater mass, while free-floating reduces the number of points of contact with the barrel to one, thus reducing the possibility that something somewhere will expand or contract with temperature changes and push the barrel ever-so-slightly away from the initial position. So we are reduced to the SL8, which is also cheaper than the Swiss Arms.

So get yourself an SL8. You won't regret it.
 
beltfed said:
The Swiss Arms are a Rifleman's rifle.
They come with an accuracy guarantee and offer top quality none of the others out there can touch, including custom modern guns emulating the AR.
The fact the barrels are not fully floated is mostly a red hearing - shoot it how it was intended (positional shooting) and save your bench or belly mounted, bipod shooting for your bolt guns.
Dominion mags are affordable. The magazine and the operating system are the most reliable out there.
Pricing of gently used models are in line with your budget, while others like the APC and MH will break it.
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Amen to that!
 
ATRS MV:

1. The only non-restricted "AR" in Canada
2. The only rifle suggested in this thread that is 6lbs
3. The only rifle suggested in this thread with a match grade barrel and trigger

$3300

DSC_1501_zps3yfjzb9b.jpg
 
superlative said:
ATRS MV:

1. The only non-restricted "AR" in Canada
2. The only rifle suggested in this thread that is 6lbs
3. The only rifle suggested in this thread with a match grade barrel and trigger

$3300

DSC_1501_zps3yfjzb9b.jpg
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Sure, except the most basic model is $3350 and as your picture shows would be over $4000 plus tax.
I'd love to get my hands on a MV but what you show is well over the budget listed by the OP.

I own or have owned almost all the non restricted black rifles available to us and so far the ACR is my top pick.
-Swiss arms is a well built and great rifle but it's far from a 1 moa rifle. Maybe if you handload for it but not with regular off the shelf ammo unless you like spending over $1 per shot, I wish I'd kept mine long enough to try more ammo through it but when I noticed a 5moa point of impact shift transitioning from the bipod to supporting it on the magazine I sold it.
-A stock HK SL8 is not the friendliest ergonomically but it's so far the best rifle out of the box I've shot if you are interested in accuracy, I've owned 3 of them and they were all very accurate but the Hera Arms lower is the best setup of them all, the G36 conversion I just sold was nice but the stock is too low for a proper cheek weld. Either the Hera or G36 setup will push you up in price significantly though.
-Armalite AR180B-2 is a great rifle but accuracy is around the same as an XCR which is only what I would call decent for a combat style rifle. Regardless of that I still own one and will never sell it.
-Tavor is another well built and reliable rifle but the accuracy is not great.
-ACR converted to non restricted is my favorite for both ergonomics and accuracy as long as you get a quality barrel. I'm on my second one and have been through four non restricted conversion barrels and all shot well with the exception of the ultra light profile barrel I started with. It was around the same as an XCR with that one but with the other barrels I've seen great results including many sub moa groups from my custom made 300BLK barrel.
- XCR, well I haven't shot a new one but of the four I have played with none were much better than a Tavor for accuracy but they are a decent rifle that has great ergonomics and is backed by Wolverine which means that if it ever breaks you can sleep easy knowing it won't be long till it's fixed.
-mini14? Forget it, well built and reliable minute of barn door.
-Type 97? It's a Norinco so quality is nowhere to be found. It shot well and had a very unique recoil impulse but zero parts availability and zero warranty make it a disposable rifle.

Not sure what I've forgotten but in reality with this type of rifle whether it's 1 moa or 4 moa shouldn't really matter unless your just sitting at a bench shooting groups in which case you should just buy a bolt action. These rifles were designed for a different purpose and focusing on accuracy will leave you disappointed. Focus more on reliability and ergonomics because that's what you'll notice more in the field.
 
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superlative said:
ATRS MV:

1. The only non-restricted "AR" in Canada
2. The only rifle suggested in this thread that is 6lbs
3. The only rifle suggested in this thread with a match grade barrel and trigger

$3300

DSC_1501_zps3yfjzb9b.jpg
Click to expand...

1. The Modern Varminter isn't an AR
2. That rifle pictured is about as close to 6 pounds as Rosie O'Donnell is to being a 120lb super model. Let's be honest, that thing pictured is tipping around 10lbs easy.
3. The Sig have both a match grade trigger and barrel, the ACR DMR with a Giesselle trigger is match grade as is probably the barrel, and the H&K SL-8 has at least a match grade Barrel and a very good trigger.

cr5 said:
...but in reality with this type of rifle whether it's 1 moa or 4 moa shouldn't really matter unless your just sitting at a bench shooting groups in which case you should just buy a bolt action. These rifles were designed for a different purpose and focusing on accuracy will leave you disappointed. Focus more on reliability and ergonomics because that's what you'll notice more in the field.
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I've said it all before, and It's worth repeating: accuracy is a product of design and quality. it isn't precluded by reliability or ergonomics (despite what some of the Tavor crowd want to believe ;) )
Field shooting with improvised positions is where you'll want the dependability of the rifles mechanical accuracy the most - especially for the coin being suggested. Ymmv.
 
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beltfed said:
1. The Modern Varminter isn't an AR
2. That rifle pictured is about as close to 6 pounds as Rosie O'Donnell is to being a 120lb super model. Let's be honest, that thing pictured is tipping around 10lbs easy.
3. The Sig have both a match grade trigger and barrel, the ACR DMR with a Giesselle trigger is match grade as is probably the barrel, and the H&K SL-8 has at least a match grade Barrel and a very good trigger.



I've said it all before, and It's worth repeating: accuracy is a product of design and quality. it isn't precluded by reliability or ergonomics (despite what some of the Tavor crowd want to believe ;) )
Field shooting with improvised positions is where you'll want the dependability of the rifles mechanical accuracy the most - especially for the coin being suggested. Ymmv.
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With slim profile barrel, the ATRS MV is 6.75lbs. The ACR is over 8lbs and very front heavy.
I said "AR", not it is an "AR". If it was an AR, then it would be restricted, but it is functionally identical to an AR with only enough differences to pass the RCMP test - so really, I think it's silly nitpicking on this.
 
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