M-14 Blasphemy?

[Different]

I'm not a subscriber to "SWAT Magazine", but the other night I was out with the wife for dinner and stopped at a magazine shop so she could find a photography magazine for herself. Of course, I checked out the gun rags on the stand and was piqued by the title headline on the April issue of SWAT: "Myth of the M14 Rifle". I thumbed through to the article which was entitled, "Slaying the Sacred Cow", by Mike Jones.

I picked up a copy of the April 2010 issue of S.W.A.T.. I read the article. It did not change my opinion of the M14 by one scintilla of an iota. There's nothing new in it that you haven't read before on Internet discussion boards. I shared my review of the article, point by point, on another board.

The M14 is like Las Vegas, people either hate or love it but most people love it.

 

[Pathfinder]

If it'ssuch an antiquated POS than I guess some of the guys oveseas would not be carrying them still....Im talking about Guys who actually pick what they use not green army troops. I for one would prefer not to be climbing 10,000+ in Alt with one strapped on to me....probably go to the SR-25 but ultimately what is a couple of pounds when you're already carrying 60-100 ?

Personally Ill probably buy another later on.....I did find the M-305 a little rough but it was a good buy for the money spent.

 

[crashcollins]

For the record the Chinese did make select fire M14's

Hungry here: Yes, well , uh, ummm what select fire M14's?? ha ha ha ha Let's just not go there, shall we? ha ha ha

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

If you read Different's online book on the M14, he writes about how several US based dealers, importers and knowledgible people visited China to help improve the quality of the guns these guys were selling in the US. The Chinese had figured out the drawings and production steps 'somehow', these guys were the added intellectual ingredient to get it right.

 

[t-star]

For the record the Chinese did make select fire M14's

oh, indeed, and the EARLY ones from norinco have the cut-outs in the MIDDLE of the rail and marks where the LUG was removed- the triggers still have the HOOKS for the selector to engage( they're on the hammer) and you can see where the bayonet lug was milled off

Hungry here: I thought that I saw/ held the only ones like these described above. Now my #### is gonna fall off!

 

[kurtk01]

So what if it's made in China!

I have 3 Armalites. Would I own other AR 15 platforms? Certainly, had a Colt and the custom AR's achieve a level of perfection that GI grade rifles do not. They also cost twice as much or more. I do not shoot the AR's in a manner where 1/2 MOA is required. For me that's bolt gun territory.

Look guys shoot what you want but calling the Norinco something it isn't grates on me. That's why I looked in on the post "M14 blasphemy", I thought someone else was finally going to say what I was thinking.

Can some guys make these guns shoot well for a relative bargain? Sure but that changes nothing. You can make a Hyundai fast (crank up the nitrous and call a tow truck) but it's still a Hyundai not a Corvette.

I have to think that most feel the same given the number of posts I see about these rifles. Its like you want someone to tell you all they are OK. I'm sure they function fine, but don't call it an M14, it isn't one. I have no problem with two guys living together and sharing pensions and benefits but don't call it marriage.

As a final point I wonder how many Norincos show up at the Camp Perry matches? For that manner there are few FN's and no HK's that I've ever been aware of.

Call them C14's

It doesn't matter where it was made. It's a a M 14 rifle. It Shoots Well and I Like it. The Chinese metal quality is amazing. They are built tough. Tighter tolerances than the Springfield's.

Most of you guys are all brainwashed.... Just because it's not made in America, doesn't mean it's inferior.

Seafury, this isn't just about Guns made in China, this is a pregidous towards the Chinese way in general.

Oh and Hyundai is a Korean built vehicle. And their Genesis Coupe has over 300 horse power....... They are fast. And for half the price i might add.

It had to be said..... Sorry.

 

[Different]

I picked up my first Chinese M14 yesterday, Poly sn 000XX. It's a pre-'89 US import so it has the fully functional lugged flash suppressor. I bought it from Keng's Firearm Specialty, the original importer. Apparently, they kept a few back and never sold them from 1989. I grabbed it off Gunbroker. I've only had a chance to give it a quick look but I'm impressed. Barrel TE = 0, rear sight works like a champ, receiver looks great, etc. When I can get to it, I'll post my review.

 

[mt84]

See! even Different likes the Chinese.....

 

[bushii]

Sea Fury

An M-305 is not a Springfield M14...but neither is the M1A you own because its not select fire. So its a copy / clone, as is an AR-15 a clone of an M-16.

As far as value for money goes you said a souped up hydai isn't corvette but neither is a corvette a Ferrari. So having an M-1A is inferior to having a Knights Arms SR-25 but we all have to live with in our means.

If I could take a Corvette and tweak it to get the same performance as a Ferrari I would sure as hell do it. If you take the time and enjoyment to work on a Norc M-305 you can get it to shoot as well as a Springfield. I work in law-enforcement and know that the Mounties have ( with a little tweaking ) got M-305 shootings 1/2 MOA at 100yds. What more could ya want , whether it be: hunting , target shooting or three gun tactical shoots ?

Some people enjoy working on firearms to see how much they can get out of them, like working on an old car. A 63 split back stingray won't preform like a modern vette but I'd luv to have one. Both because its a classic and because it would be fun to work on. Some people are on a budget and can't afford the top of the line of everything but can manage to get a less expensive rifle and slowly improve it. This however doesn't mean those of us who can afford to buy the biggest best and newest should be gun snobs. Nothing worse than a snob of any type.

So whether you call them M-305's or M-14's or M-1A's or GE's or Sony's ...a rose by any other name is still an M-14.

( one other small point...M-14 is a design type ..same as a 1911A1 ..or a Hi Power...regardless of who manufactures them..they are still that model of firearm ).

Sorry for the long post guys but I don't post often so I like to try to be through when I do.

Take care everyone ..Shoot...be safe..and have fun!!

 

[J996]

If it'ssuch an antiquated POS than I guess some of the guys oveseas would not be carrying them still....Im talking about Guys who actually pick what they use not green army troops. I for one would prefer not to be climbing 10,000+ in Alt with one strapped on to me....probably go to the SR-25 but ultimately what is a couple of pounds when you're already carrying 60-100 ?

Personally Ill probably buy another later on.....I did find the M-305 a little rough but it was a good buy for the money spent.

I agree that jumping a full size 14 would be very awkward but the MK 14 mod 0 is alot shorter. These guys certainly get to pick what they use and in the environments of the current conflicts, this guys Mk14 will still be running long after it has ingested fine sand unlike the SR25. As far as combining tacticool, accuracy and bomb proof reliability its hard to beat the MK14 system. Lets not forget that the Seals had this weapon system developed for them when the SR25 was already available to them.

 

[drop the hammer]

I was watching a show on Coast Guard interdiction missions and they use an m14 along with the M107 firing from a helicopter to cover take downs of drug runners.

 

[Colin]

Armies have used old weapons as a reserve since the invention of the knife. I suppose he thinks that they should have spents millions of dollars for a new rifle that would be entering service right about now, if none of the companies entering firearms had sued.

 

[fat tony]

I am going to put on my flame suit, but unless you want to spend $$$$ on your AR-15 platform, forget about going to service rifle matches, I am not a fanboy, so I do most of my shooting by myself or just to have fun and invite some friends along, having fun shooting should not be about worrying about keeping up with the joneses or spending $10,000 dollars just to compete in 4 matches or so per season - actually that sounds like a real pita, but if it's up your alley, hey more power to you.

 

[Wally]

I have 3 Armalites. Would I own other AR 15 platforms? Certainly, had a Colt and the custom AR's achieve a level of perfection that GI grade rifles do not. They also cost twice as much or more. I do not shoot the AR's in a manner where 1/2 MOA is required. For me that's bolt gun territory.

Look guys shoot what you want but calling the Norinco something it isn't grates on me. That's why I looked in on the post "M14 blasphemy", I thought someone else was finally going to say what I was thinking.

Can some guys make these guns shoot well for a relative bargain? Sure but that changes nothing. You can make a Hyundai fast (crank up the nitrous and call a tow truck) but it's still a Hyundai not a Corvette.

I have to think that most feel the same given the number of posts I see about these rifles. Its like you want someone to tell you all they are OK. I'm sure they function fine, but don't call it an M14, it isn't one. I have no problem with two guys living together and sharing pensions and benefits but don't call it marriage.

As a final point I wonder how many Norincos show up at the Camp Perry matches? For that manner there are few FN's and no HK's that I've ever been aware of.

Call them C14's

It's a mil-spec M14/M1A design.... who cares where it's made? The parts are all interchangeable with the praised NA manufacturers parts. Hungry was saying they the tolerances on the norstinkos are, in most cases, tighter than the springfield/TRW/USGI rifles.

Sounds like you're just sore becuase you spent a whole bunch of money on rifles that we got for 4-$500

Hungry here: Yup, I've owned at least 3 TRW receivers years ago, and the Norinco-plinkos have great geometry and I love rebarreling them, except for that silly little set screw on the right side. Let's move on from the Norc bashing! I'm really getting tired of the US Made M14 style versus the kommunist zhinese rendition!

 

[Seafury]

In Rebuttal

First I take my hat off to you guys for taking it easy on me. It's ok to have different opinions. You make good arguments. I enjoy the exchange, no harm done. At least not to my delicate feelings.

"An M-305 is not a Springfield M14...but neither is the M1A you own because its not select fire. So its a copy / clone, as is an AR-15 a clone of an M-16.""

Yeah I know, Springfield isn't calling it an M14. Armalite isn’t calling an AR15 an M16 it’s not the same. The AR is identical but not select fire. That’s my point.

"Seafury, this isn't just about Guns made in China, this is a pregidous towards the Chinese way in general."

Bingo! It is an issue with the way they do business. They back engineer everything, build cheap with cheap labor and undercut. It’s a big part of why nothing lasts anymore. It's a big part of why the North American manufacturing sector is failing. I'd rather pay twice as much for a better product and I never buy theirs if I can avoid it. Seems China has Capitalism figured out.

I believe it is spelled prejudice.

“It had to be said..... Sorry.”

Don’t be sorry, you have a right to feel the way you do. I am not insulted or offended by your uninformed opinions. lol

“Oh and Hyundai is a Korean built vehicle. And their Genesis Coupe has over 300 horse power....... They are fast. And for half the price i might add.”

Yes I know they are Korean, remember the Pony? Nobody that owned one has forgotten or forgiven. As for the Vette a ZO6 puts a Ferrari to shame for the difference in price. I ain’t showing up at the A&W in a Hyundai even if it has warp drive.

"Sounds like you're just sore becuase you spent a whole bunch of money on rifles that we got for 4-500$"

Looks like momma was wrong again. I don't regret my purchase at all. Won't buy a Norinco anything. It's my personal choice and it does not have to be yours. Like I said at the beginning enjoy your rifles. Perhaps you guys have an inferiority complex? Seem awful defensive. Too me the extra coin is worth it to have what I believe if even only in principal is closer to the real thing. I'm sure ATR could tune my Springfield up to run with the best. And think of it like this, I have another $2500-2800 to spend before I have paid what an M1A Super Match goes for.

Hypothetical question:

So I’m a guy who builds M14 clones as a business. Would I tell you that only GI or Springfield parts were worth starting with? That would severely limit my orders as nobody has access to the parts. Having said that I recognize that many here say that with work the Chinese clones shoot very well with the right modifications. In no way do I intend to offend the guys that do this work or imply they are less than honest. I do however expect a psychologist to tell me I’m crazy and a Lawyer to drag out my divorce. Maybe I’m just cynical.

Ok so we are beating this to death so if you feel the need to respond fine but I likely won't unless my mother is brought into this. Wait till you meet her.

 

[klaus enuff]

I get pissed when I have to expose myself and my posessions to people that I don't believe should even work security at the airport to begin with. Anglo Saxon White guy gets once over from former inhabitants of Dhirka Dhirka Stan. What a joke.


I cut and pasted the above words of yours from another thread. I feel safe saying you are an angry guy with a few issues. Keep making racially prejudiced purchases, you are certainly entitled to.

 

[Doc M]

Sticking to similar principles, I refuse to buy an engine unless it was personally made by Rudolf Diesel, Gottlieb Daimler, or Karl Benz.

Some of you "s**t-don't-stink"ers need to give your heads a shake. My M1A isn't a bragging point in terms of unit cost or where it was made - no, it doesn't have the crossed cannons of Springfield Armory... no, it wasn't made in the U-S-of-A. What it is, is made to tolerances that are safe and dependable. It works with anything I've thrown at it, and shoots as well as I can at the ranges I need it to.

Will I own a Springfield someday? You can bet your bollocks to a barn dance I sure will. However, for now, the sound financial option is my Norinco M14s - and maybe, just MAYBE, by using an M1A for several years before I get the legit Springfield Armory item, I'll treat the 'genuine article' far better than I would if I were still a 'n00b'.

YMMV.

-M

 

[pklassen]

This Thread is way off topic. I have my reasons for owning a Norinco M14 and i really dont care what some douche bag from "Swat" magazine has to say about it. If it does the job you want it to do well and you enjoy using it then its a win win. Now if somebody wants to tell me my Norinco M14 isnt a M14 i just laugh. Its very childish to argue about symantics.

 

[crazy_arctic_hero]

My reasoning for calling it an "M14";

its much easier to say than M14s and M305 ... and I couldn't care less if it was correct or not.

 

[H2O MAN]

The "Sacred Cow" in the US military is the problematic M110... and from I have been told by many the 7.62 SCAR is also a problem child.

There is big money at stake and the competition can't stand the fact that the Smith Enterprise, Inc. Crazy Horse M14s
and TACOM M14EBR-RI rifles are doing the job without problems in the field and for far less money.

Also, there are far more M14EBR-RI rifles in action than there are M110 rifles in existence.

I'll stick with the modernized M14