M-14 Blasphemy?

[J996]

Seafury,
You are most certainly entitled to your opinion.
However the chinese receiver is widely regarded to be very close to USGI dimensions. They are drop forged and are made of AISI 8620 equivalent alloy steel, the proper material for M14 receivers.
Many custom builders including SEI use these receivers for their builds.
I have been an M1A man for a long time and had to go "back to school" so to speak when it came to learning the facts about these rifles.
When you install all GI parts onto one of these receivers, you end up with a non-restricted rifle that is as good as it possibly gets, and even bone stock they work and shoot just fine. Check out the review of the 2009 Polytech here: http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378391

If you do wish to know more about the Chinese rifles as well as absolutely everything about the USGI and Springfield ones,
then read M14 rifle history and development. Its online and its free. It takes forever to read it all but it is well worth it. Truly a wealth of knowledge compiled by Different.
Of particular interest (to me anyways) was how these chinese rifles came to be in the first place.
Here is the link:

http://miamirifle-pistol.org/userfiles/file/pdf/M14 RHAD Text Only Edition 090531.pdf

 

[M14Doctor]

t-Star, let me say I am aware that you have quite a number of M14 and clone rifles. Your goal is clearly to own a variety so I never expected to entice you with the offer. Your ownership of them entitles you to the opinion you hold. Own and enjoy them all. I've said that right through.

Klaus, obviously I am your single biggest pet peeve. You have taken some time to compile what I have said and made it your mission to dwell on it and point out the fine points in my grammar. If I have made you uncomfortable I apologize for that. It was never my intention to do so but having said that allow me to have my opinion. You don't need to agree.

Francisco, I am not trying to instigate anything. I have an opinion that is unpopular and therefore not accepted. So that means I should not voice it? I believe in your post you are if indirectly calling me unintelligent and immature. Is that not a violation of exactly what you say? Does a clever choice of wording make you immune from it?

The reason I came on this site was to utilize the resource to find some things I wanted and tap the information and experience here. If you look at the battle rifles section the line following it says unintended advertising for Norinco. How true that is. It offends me that this Company has named its product after what I like to think is the best 308 battle rifle when it is only a cheap knockoff. Do some shoot fairly well? Groups are like fish stories in that their sizes are exagerated. There are not that many people who can shoot an inch at a hundred yards with iron. I believe there is a lot of false pride when it comes to these firearms.

This is a battle I can't win so with that I'll withdraw and concentrate my effort here to do what I set out to. In fairness to you all I will allow you to revel in your ownership of these firearms without my input as I should have done from the beginning.

Thanx for taking this down a notch and explaining your self.
I would offer to meet you , if you were local, and allow you to shoot several rifles. New bone stock, basic match conditioned with no other upgrades but a sadlak NM spring guide, and a full boat, national match spec, norinco DMR with all G.I. Parts, krieger barrel ect.
I think it would allow you to come to appreciate the norinco for what it is.
There's lemons for sure, but a basic match condition and once over by a competent riflesmith, can turn a less than rack grade norc/poly into a better rack grade rifle than many 2200 to 2500 M1A stamdards.... Without spending even 1/2 what it costs to buy the springer.
We share info very freely here, it can be an enlightening place at times

 

[Seafury]

tempting

Hey... I have 3 rifles here, nonresricted, and the manufacturers model designations are clearly stamped NORINCO M14
No's' at the end, no m305 ..... Just plain ol M14
Of particular interest is the reggie certs... Under model it clearly states M14

So.... I do realize these are clones made in china and not true US M14 RIFLES
- can tell the difference cuz I've been in the game.... A while.
I have a client with a 12-3 collection.... Tell you what... 6 of the new marstar rifles new in unopened boxes and I'll get ralph to let you take your pic LOL
Thsis offer is only for seafury
For everyone else.... Ralph does not exist

Please forward more information on Ralph's collection through PM.

 

[H2O MAN]

If you do wish to know more about the Chinese rifles as well as absolutely everything about the USGI and Springfield ones,
then read M14 rifle history and development. Its online and its free. It takes forever to read it all but it is well worth it. Truly a wealth of knowledge compiled by Different.

Different purchased his very 1st ChiCom M14 recently and you will see new information on these rifles released soon.

 

[klaus enuff]

Seafury

Thank you for offering somewhat of a retraction. Your finer points of grammer are not the problem in so much as your choice of words. As the author of the most overtly racist garbage I have ever read on this site you most definately got my special attention. Seeing you in here spouting off on the Norinco I had to confront you.

I am glad you read the name of this forum ie "involuntary advertising for Norinco". If the Springfield was worth all the extra money do you not think there would be a larger demand for it? Or are you calling thousands of owners cheap, stupid or both? You should most definately take up others on the offers to educate you on the Chinese product.

I feel you are smart enough to not ever post such blatantly racist drivel like your airport rant again. Try to keep it to individual words like 'Hongcouver' and 'Norchinko' like I have seen a few other times on this site. They seem to escape notice far more easily.

Of course you can post a few more like your original post that drew my ire. And eventually attract the attention of the mods. Either way I won't have to read racist crap from you on this site. You might want to read the credo of this site one more time too.

 

[M14Doctor]

Please forward more information on Ralph's collection through PM.

There is no ralph, my apolgies, I was being an idiot hehehe

 

[Polar Man]

The norc is a heck of a lot of gun for 400 clams, I am under no delusions that it is a real Springfield, but look at it this way. We are extremely lucky to be able to own battle rifles in Canada, and norinco makes it possible for many, many people to enjoy these guns, and possibly do more to promote our sport. I just had a friend out 2 days ago to shoot my norc, he had only fired a .22 before then, and he was grinning from ear to ear. I saw a new gun lover born before my eyes. He kept asking to look at the gun afterward and I was even nice enough to let him clean it. He was unaware we could even own such a rifle in this country, and is going to get his paperwork as soon as he can to buy his own.
Of course, when I told him it was a norinco copy made in China, he didn't care in the slightest, same as me.

 

[Seafury]

Takes two

There is no ralph, my apolgies, I was being an idiot hehehe

Yeah I know. I was just responding to the dare.

 

[Seafury]

The norc is a heck of a lot of gun for 400 clams, I am under no delusions that it is a real Springfield, but look at it this way. We are extremely lucky to be able to own battle rifles in Canada, and norinco makes it possible for many, many people to enjoy these guns, and possibly do more to promote our sport. I just had a friend out 2 days ago to shoot my norc, he had only fired a .22 before then, and he was grinning from ear to ear. I saw a new gun lover born before my eyes. He kept asking to look at the gun afterward and I was even nice enough to let him clean it. He was unaware we could even own such a rifle in this country, and is going to get his paperwork as soon as he can to buy his own.
Of course, when I told him it was a norinco copy made in China, he didn't care in the slightest, same as me.

And thats what matters. You make a very valid point. $400 don't buy much of a firearm these days. If it gets another person shooting its a good thing.

 

[Seafury]

Yes Sireee

Seafury

Thank you for offering somewhat of a retraction. Your finer points of grammer are not the problem in so much as your choice of words. As the author of the most overtly racist garbage I have ever read on this site you most definately got my special attention. Seeing you in here spouting off on the Norinco I had to confront you.

I am glad you read the name of this forum ie "involuntary advertising for Norinco". If the Springfield was worth all the extra money do you not think there would be a larger demand for it? Or are you calling thousands of owners cheap, stupid or both? You should most definately take up others on the offers to educate you on the Chinese product.

I feel you are smart enough to not ever post such blatantly racist drivel like your airport rant again. Try to keep it to individual words like 'Hongcouver' and 'Norchinko' like I have seen a few other times on this site. They seem to escape notice far more easily.

Of course you can post a few more like your original post that drew my ire. And eventually attract the attention of the mods. Either way I won't have to read racist crap from you on this site. You might want to read the credo of this site one more time too.

Put it in park would you Klaus. It seems most of the real hostility eminates from you.

 

[MatthewMarchand]

I really want one of the cheap Norc to see if I like the platform, but ultimately, I really want a pretty LRB receivered beast.

 

[klaus enuff]

Seafury

I've done what I wanted to. I put enough attention on you with our exchanges to make you consider a little more carefully what you post on here. Remember that words are like bullets; you can't take them back once they are out there. Antis do come on this site, lets put forth our best not our worst.

 

[Seafury]

Seafury

I've done what I wanted to. I put enough attention on you with our exchanges to make you consider a little more carefully what you post on here. Remember that words are like bullets; you can't take them back once they are out there. Antis do come on this site, lets put forth our best not our worst.

Actually Klaus words are nothing like bullets. I've taken my share of negative words with no ill effect. They bounce right off. It's pretty hard to ignore bullets.

Having seen the changes in this country over the last 40 years first hand I find it difficult to hold my tongue. It's not getting better. I think for the most part what I say is what a lot of others think. Sooner or later the ostrich has to pull his head out of the sand.

Having said that I'll take your advice and try to make it a kinder, gentler site.

 

[98%Brent]

Actually Klaus words are nothing like bullets. I've taken my share of negative words with no ill effect. They bounce right off. It's pretty hard to ignore bullets.

Having seen the changes in this country over the last 40 years first hand I find it difficult to hold my tongue. It's not getting better. I think for the most part what I say is what a lot of others think. Sooner or later the ostrich has to pull his head out of the sand.

Having said that I'll take your advice and try to make it a kinder, gentler site.

Well said!

 

[trekstor]

Are they select fire? M14 rifles were. TRW, Springfield, Harrington & Richardson(if memory serves me) made M14's in the USA. They were not made by Huong, Whang and Chin in the Peoples Republic of China.

So if I use Rembrandt's brush to paint a picture is it a Rembrandt?

Springfield only made 123 Selective fire m14! all other where semi auto! Why do you think a Selective fire m14 is worth $24,000 USD with a EBR stock?

I also heard, Norinco got the tooling from spring field, so if its true, i would say a Norinco m14 is as much a SF m14.

Anyway, at the end of the day, I am ok calling it a m305B. I agree m305B is more accurate the m14.

 

[Different]

Springfield only made 123 Selective fire m14! all other where semi auto! Why do you think a Selective fire m14 is worth $24,000 USD with a EBR stock?

I also heard, Norinco got the tooling from spring field, so if its true, i would say a Norinco m14 is as much a SF m14.

Springfield Armory, Inc. (Geneseo, IL) made 125 select fire M1A rifles at the factory. Its sister company, Rock Island Armory, performed thirty-five M1A conversions to select fire before 1986.

Norinco (actually State Arsenal 356) did not get any machinery or tooling from the U. S. government or its M14 project contractors. Neither did the mainland Chinese get assistance from Taiwan.

 

[Seafury]

you don't say

Springfield only made 123 Selective fire m14! all other where semi auto! Why do you think a Selective fire m14 is worth $24,000 USD with a EBR stock?

I also heard, Norinco got the tooling from spring field, so if its true, i would say a Norinco m14 is as much a SF m14.

Anyway, at the end of the day, I am ok calling it a m305B. I agree m305B is more accurate the m14.

I paid $700 for my TRW in 87. I can't say for certain how many Springfield made select but I will say that $24,000 is unrealistic. By all acounts the Norinco copies shoot well. Thats not my beef. Call it something other than an M14. Hell after what I've read here I'm tempted to buy a new one to see what its like. $400 is a set of scope rings and a bipod for some rifles.

I'm not so proud that I can't be wrong. Maybe I'll get M14 DR. to make me a match rifle. And if he can improve the Norinco I'll send my Springfield for some TLC.

 

[Dimitri]

Has anyone else read this article and what are your thoughts? To me, it seems as though SWAT Magazine is trying to stimulate some sales by creating a controversy amongst readers.

Most M14 articles are positive but a few have to be negative. If he wrote a positive review he may have not been published and had to actually do real work to feed his family.

Didn't the chinese buy the tooling that the original M14's were made with? If so, doesn't that make them M14's more so then the springfields, etc?

Nope tooling went to Taiwan not the PRC.

Seafury, this isn't just about Guns made in China, this is a pregidous towards the Chinese way in general.

Work in manufacturing and see the "to spec" stuff that comes from China for a while, you'll understand quickly even if you say you want something and pay more then their normal price you still get junk.

So its a copy / clone, as is an AR-15 a clone of an M-16.

Actually the AR-15 was made before the M16 was type classified as it was a commercial product first.

They are drop forged and are made of AISI 8620 equivalent alloy steel, the proper material for M14 receivers.

No the Chinese use a different steel (51XX). SAI in the US uses 8620. The material is not to spec. in Chinese rifles.

None the less can we bash this new writer instead?

Dimitri

 

[RaTa]

Frankly some of the stuff that I've gotten from China has been better then product from Canadian aerospace shops. Some of it not but the idea that China only produces junk is slowly being trumped as shops begin to increase quality control. Some of the finest machining in the world is now done almost exclusively in China.

 

[Dimitri]

Some of the finest machining in the world is now done almost exclusively in China.

And it rains diamonds not water.

Dimitri