M10X Canadian MSRP set

$2000 dollars is too much for me. I can think of better places to spend that kind of coin.
Those of you who do, Have fun. I hope they are a reliable, great quality product.
 
Brian46 said:
I am actually surprised how well my ACR shoots with mid grade factory ammo (Privi PSP). It is much better than I was expecting
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You mean your ACR with a match grade barrel from Herron Arms? Not exactly a fair comparison but it does show that with a high end barrel even surplus can shoot surprisingly well, unfortunately manufacturers these days like to call everything with more than a pencil barrel "match grade" or DMR. Fortunately for them very few people realize that a heavy contour means nothing without proper stress relieving and heat treating so that it shoots consistently as it warms and cools.
 
cr5 said:
You mean your ACR with a match grade barrel from Herron Arms? Not exactly a fair comparison but it does show that with a high end barrel even surplus can shoot surprisingly well, unfortunately manufacturers these days like to call everything with more than a pencil barrel "match grade" or DMR. Fortunately for them very few people realize that a heavy contour means nothing without proper stress relieving and heat treating so that it shoots consistently as it warms and cools.
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Yup. They can put any label on it that they wish. All it is is another bait and switch. Most factory run of the mill heavy barrels do little more than add weight and slow you down. You may get a couple extra shots before erratic behavior but nothing significant.
 
cr5 said:
You mean your ACR with a match grade barrel from Herron Arms? Not exactly a fair comparison but it does show that with a high end barrel even surplus can shoot surprisingly well, unfortunately manufacturers these days like to call everything with more than a pencil barrel "match grade" or DMR. Fortunately for them very few people realize that a heavy contour means nothing without proper stress relieving and heat treating so that it shoots consistently as it warms and cools.
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Match grade? It's a light profile and nothing special. It doesn't like cheap surplus, but that is because the consistency in the steel cases, lacquer, loading, etc is so different from round to round.
 
I have said nothing that is slanderous, and I've been clear this is my observation and opinion. I can be shown otherwise, and will gladly retract anything I've said. I have considered starting a business in this area. I've also never claimed to know all the laws. Ever.
Ar180shooter said:
It's quite clear that you know mich less about the Canadian firearms industry than you think. Completely different maze of laws to navigate amd completely different market forces than the U.S. If you truly believe the market up here is full of collusion and price fixing, start your own business selling guns, go straight to the manufacturers and purchase in bulk, and undercut everyone here while making your fortune. If you're not going to do this, shut it with the slanderous accusations of collusion and price fixing.

Prices here are higher due to several factors, mainly:
1.Virtually all guns are imported

Well, yeah, I think we understand this.

2.Our dollar is weak

It is, and even when it's strong, there is way more to shelf price than currency conversion and it takes more than a year for it to be reflected in our purchasing power locally.

3.Costs are higher here (taxes, labour, transport, etc.)

Yes, and no. But lets just agree yes.

4.Manufacturers generally charge a premium to distributors for Canadian compliant models. Yes, it sucks, but we are a captive market with few options, and those companies have a responsibility to their shareholders. If it's over priced compared to similar items it won't sell. At this point prices will either drop or the item will disappear from the market.

If you know more, please share more. Everyone wants to see equitable business, so where is the leverage coming from?

It's really tiring to constantly hear people complain about things they know little about. If you don't like it, put a few million dollars down and change things.

If you say so.
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@Ar180shooter ,since you appear fairly heated about this, why don't you let us know what your knowledge in this area is? What business are you in? And are you anonymous on these forums?

I would love to learn more about this industry. And by the way, my comments were generic to practices I've seen over many years, and talking to a few dealers and their observations. My only direct comment was on the MSRP and Dealer pricing I was informed of - for the purposes of discussion. Nothing is slanderous, nothing is a direct accusation of collusion. SO please don't go there.
 
Brian46 said:
Match grade? It's a light profile and nothing special. It doesn't like cheap surplus, but that is because the consistency in the steel cases, lacquer, loading, etc is so different from round to round.
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I know Ian will put in whatever you ask for but he doesn't typically deal in rack grade cheepo barrels. Even a pencil barrel can come from a match grade blank which will help it significantly in the accuracy department. Proper stress relieving, better rifling, better cut crown, chamber cut to proper dimensions, correctly fitted and headspaced, all these things add up to a good shooter. What I'm saying is that M+M claiming what they install being a match grade or DMR anything is simply words to fool the masses of uneducated.
Getting peoples hopes up that this rifle is going to somehow shoot tight groups with surplus ammo is just leading to having disappointed owners. Rifles like this should be aimed at being 100% reliable clean or dirty, if they happen to incorporate some features that lead to a slight increase in accuracy then that's great but implying it's some DMR sniper rifle is just sh!t talk. If I was to buy this rifle and it would print 4 moa groups with surplus I'd be very happy but if it isn't 100% reliable with any commercially available ammo then I'd be very unhappy with my purchase.
 
Ar180Shooter, please, no need to be personal and call anyone here a layman, arrogant, naive, and oblivious. :p
I myself don't know everything, but I also don't have my head in the sand. There is a point where a balance can be struck where pricing is fair for both consumer and manufacturer.
From my former contacts in the Bombardier International Sales Division, I have some knowledge of improper (to the common layman with ethics anyways) things that transpire to secure sales. There is no reason a warranty should be revoked in North America on Bomb's Made in Canada product just because of where Bomb's products were purchased. Bomb's dealer network and logistics has been long established. At least we agree Bomb is not a good example of fairness/subsidies/efficiency, etc. Wish we could all dip our cups in the gravy bowl that subsidizes them. Anyways, an example of domestic manufacturer penalizing those that subsidize them.

Most of us can see Cdn pricing is higher due to some factors. Sometimes these factors are legitimate, sometimes not. Sometimes these legitimate factors are over-inflated to try and justify inflated pricing. This happens in every industry.


Based on M&M's pricing changes and domestic MSRP revisions in the very recent few weeks, my thought is there is some manipulation to MSRP to try and justify new Cdn market pricing.
Just my thoughts, and I respect others even if they don't agree.
 
in the past we used to import direct from the US factory ... a Canadian distributor went in the game and we got a increase of 25% and nothing with USD or CAD we were still paying them in USD ....
 
xdmer said:
@Ar180shooter ,since you appear fairly heated about this, why don't you let us know what your knowledge in this area is? What business are you in? And are you anonymous on these forums?

I would love to learn more about this industry. And by the way, my comments were generic to practices I've seen over many years, and talking to a few dealers and their observations. My only direct comment was on the MSRP and Dealer pricing I was informed of - for the purposes of discussion. Nothing is slanderous, nothing is a direct accusation of collusion. SO please don't go there.
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8 years in the Canadian firearms industry.

My opinions on this matter are my own and this is my personal account so yes I would prefer to remain anonymous (I will however state that I am not employed by any of the companies named in this thread so far, so there is no personal business interest in the outcome of this thread).

I have no problem with people wondering why there are price differences, but when they are making accusations of collusion, price gouging, and underhanded business prectices without providing evidence to support such accusations, I have little patience or desire to be polite. Nobody in this business is getting rich. Many have spent years or decades building businesses that earn them a comfortable living, but they're not getting rich.
 
Thank-you for the dose of reality, AR180Shooter. There is a real deficit of compassion in this thread (and others) for those in the tough industry that serves our hobby.
 
I'm personally not claiming they are (getting rich or gauging everywhere), but I know I've hit a nerve. Observations and appearances don't always lead to accurate conclusions. I do have specific details from conversations over the years with several dealers and following threads here and elsewhere about the industry.

I will not bring them up, specifically, because it could be construed as slanderous. Also since I have no direct involvement it's all hearsay and I wont be bringing anything up other than adding to existing discussions, as opinions subject to change with facts. As always less the facts people including myself may come up with rational reasoning that leads to false conclusions (not accusations).

Those that are in the know, should share impersonal facts, and help people who are asking questions, to understand. Alternatively, rumor mills continue to churn and die out, until the next soap opera on CGN.

Ar180shooter said:
8 years in the Canadian firearms industry.

My opinions on this matter are my own and this is my personal account so yes I would prefer to remain anonymous (I will however state that I am not employed by any of the companies named in this thread so far, so there is no personal business interest in the outcome of this thread).

I have no problem with people wondering why there are price differences, but when they are making accusations of collusion, price gouging, and underhanded business prectices without providing evidence to support such accusations, I have little patience or desire to be polite. Nobody in this business is getting rich. Many have spent years or decades building businesses that earn them a comfortable living, but they're not getting rich.
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xdmer said:
@Ar180shooter ,since you appear fairly heated about this, why don't you let us know what your knowledge in this area is? What business are you in? And are you anonymous on these forums?

I would love to learn more about this industry. And by the way, my comments were generic to practices I've seen over many years, and talking to a few dealers and their observations. My only direct comment was on the MSRP and Dealer pricing I was informed of - for the purposes of discussion. Nothing is slanderous, nothing is a direct accusation of collusion. SO please don't go there.
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It's pretty clear you were accusing M+M and NS of collusion to bring the M10x to our market at inflated prices. If this is not slander it is bordering on it. Additionally, dealer pricing is supposed to be confidential, it is not something that should be posted on a public forum. Additionally, the MSRP set by NS is a suggested retail, not a MAP. Without context, it only serves to confuse the issue. Items purchesed from NS are generally sold below their MSRP.

Without being involved in the industry, you really can't have an idea what goes on in it. Making assumptions because you think the industry is trying to screw you over is foolish. Look at it this way... Whatever you do for a job, how would you react if people outside your industry that know nothing about the intricacies of your profession waltzed in to your office and started making accusations about how you conduct business, would you be a little short tempered? Probably. Ignorance is fine as long as you are willing to learn. Spouting uninformed opinions is not.
 
xdmer said:
I'm personally not claiming they are (getting rich or gauging everywhere), but I know I've hit a nerve. Observations and appearances don't always lead to accurate conclusions. I do have specific details from conversations over the years with several dealers and following threads here and elsewhere about the industry.

I will not bring them up, specifically, because it could be construed as slanderous. Also since I have no direct involvement it's all hearsay and I wont be bringing anything up other than adding to existing discussions, as opinions subject to change with facts. As always less the facts people including myself may come up with rational reasoning that leads to false conclusions (not accusations).

Those that are in the know, should share impersonal facts, and help people who are asking questions, to understand. Alternatively, rumor mills continue to churn and die out, until the next soap opera on CGN.
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If you have specific questions, ask them. Don't hint at specific details then refuse to mention them.
 
medvedqc said:
out of curiosity why the SM sport II can be get for the price we have now if all the time prices are gouged ....?
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wasn't there a huge overstock of the S&W M&P sport 2s in the US? I thought it was said somewhere that is why we were able to get them at a reasonable cost.
 
Steiner said:
Ar180Shooter, please, no need to be personal and call anyone here a layman, arrogant, naive, and oblivious. :p
I myself don't know everything, but I also don't have my head in the sand. There is a point where a balance can be struck where pricing is fair for both consumer and manufacturer.
From my former contacts in the Bombardier International Sales Division, I have some knowledge of improper (to the common layman with ethics anyways) things that transpire to secure sales. There is no reason a warranty should be revoked in North America on Bomb's Made in Canada product just because of where Bomb's products were purchased. Bomb's dealer network and logistics has been long established. At least we agree Bomb is not a good example of fairness/subsidies/efficiency, etc. Wish we could all dip our cups in the gravy bowl that subsidizes them. Anyways, an example of domestic manufacturer penalizing those that subsidize them.

Most of us can see Cdn pricing is higher due to some factors. Sometimes these factors are legitimate, sometimes not. Sometimes these legitimate factors are over-inflated to try and justify inflated pricing. This happens in every industry.


Based on M&M's pricing changes and domestic MSRP revisions in the very recent few weeks, my thought is there is some manipulation to MSRP to try and justify new Cdn market pricing.
Just my thoughts, and I respect others even if they don't agree.
Click to expand...

If you are not an industry insider with specific knowledge you are by definition a layman. The state of being oblivious to the inside workings of an industry you are not involved in comes part and parcel with being a layman. Calling a company greedy without knowing their costs of production is arrogant. No personal insults here.

If there is a balance to be struck, where is it? What should the manufacturers, distributors and retailers margins be? What is fair?

Exclusivity in sales exist to prevent a race to the bottom. Voiding warranty for grey market items is a method of enforcing this.
 
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