M10X Canadian MSRP set

TreMoR said:
no, looks like only
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Why not?

Piston is attached to BCG with a charging handle, spring is around piston, gas system is regulated and opens through the front. Bolt is AK type, 3 lug. I handled in person FAMAE SG542 and SG550 and 2 are identical.

I watched disassembly of 556xi and M10x and they both looks the same to sg542-sg550.

I guess we will see when we get canadian exclusive DMR model in local shops.
 
Greentits summed it up nicely in the long locked thread...
The receiver design is a modernized updated 55X, but the overall "architecture" is convoluted.

It is a direct transplant of SG55X operating ( gas and locking ) system. Everything looks like a direct copy. What they do was throwing away the outdated(expensive) way of making receiver out of heavy sheet steel and welding the locking block on it. Instead, they fix the steel locking block and trunnion to an aluminium extrusion tube. This is basic idea of how all the current designs are executed, from SCAR to MCX, whether the steel trunnion or locking block is affixed by two cross bolts or other more permanent method. Actually, the Bushmaster M17 was already using the concept back in the 80's.

Instead of making a new shorter trigger housing with bolt catch and , which SIG/Swiss arms did when re-developing the entire AK concept back in the 60/70's, the M10 sticks with the AK receiver blank to use as the trigger housing and the basic design of AK trigger group. It is probably conceived to be "cheaper" for them to use AK blanks without making a new lower trigger housing, but the entire upper design is now driven by the desire to use an AK receiver blank as the trigger housing. To make that work it turns into a rather awkward non-push pin receiver / trigger housing arrangement ( the AK blank is probably too thin for push pins, so the cheapest way is to make it permanently attached and only crack opens) . So it is like the wagon is pushing the horse here, they built a new rifle on an AK receiver blank that was designed to work as a receiver, but now it is only used as trigger housing. So what is the point of sticking with a rather crappy AK like trigger housing? If you go that far may as well do what Sig/swiss arms did in the 60/70's, design and make a more ergonomic trigger housing!

I think it appeals to people who want the "AK" look and the mediocre "AK ergonomics", in addition to the NR status. It is also a bit of a forbidden fruit for Canadians because we cannot own AK. But putting the NR status aside, which is the major appeal in the Canadian market, the philosophy behind the system is quite convoluted. The rifle is redesigned/rebuilt around the most antiquated part of AK, the square box stamped metal AK receiver, just because! The end product doesn't even need the AK receiver, other than for the reasons of availability of mass produced aK blanks and the "look"!
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BlackVoid said:
Why not?

Piston is attached to BCG with a charging handle, spring is around piston, gas system is regulated and opens through the front. Bolt is AK type, 3 lug. I handled in person FAMAE SG542 and SG550 and 2 are identical.

I watched disassembly of 556xi and M10x and they both looks the same to sg542-sg550.

I guess we will see when we get canadian exclusive DMR model in local shops.
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Yes it's look like,,,but not the same. if it is , at 2000$ ,it's a bargain. but for me , I will say a sig550 made in china.
 
cr5 said:
I know Ian will put in whatever you ask for but he doesn't typically deal in rack grade cheepo barrels. Even a pencil barrel can come from a match grade blank which will help it significantly in the accuracy department. Proper stress relieving, better rifling, better cut crown, chamber cut to proper dimensions, correctly fitted and headspaced, all these things add up to a good shooter. What I'm saying is that M+M claiming what they install being a match grade or DMR anything is simply words to fool the masses of uneducated.
Getting peoples hopes up that this rifle is going to somehow shoot tight groups with surplus ammo is just leading to having disappointed owners. Rifles like this should be aimed at being 100% reliable clean or dirty, if they happen to incorporate some features that lead to a slight increase in accuracy then that's great but implying it's some DMR sniper rifle is just sh!t talk. If I was to buy this rifle and it would print 4 moa groups with surplus I'd be very happy but if it isn't 100% reliable with any commercially available ammo then I'd be very unhappy with my purchase.
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"Match" barrel blanks with a .311 bore are virtually non existent. I believe it is a green mountain or something of similar mediocre quality
 
Claven2 said:
Ar:

Nobody debates that businesses need to keep the lights on, but it's a fact that the week after the gun was approved in canada, m&m raised the us MSRP, where they are selling virtually no rifles, from $1249 to $1449, and then 2 days later to $1649usd, which happens to work out to about $2100 Canadian.

I don't believe in santa clause and I don't believe this is a coincidence either. We have all seen NS in action before. As soon as they distribute a product, the price goes way up. It's actually a "thing" with them. I also note they have some of the worst customer support in the biz - yes, from first hand knowledge.

If you google, you will see the m10x in usa retail outfits for $1049 and not selling well. The $1249 msrp price was fantasy to begin with.

Then m&m publicly committed to honoring their pre-sales after making wantsalls crawl through a sea of their own excrement for that privilege. 1 week later, their third exclusivity deal in as many months appears to have been inked, wantsalls nukes all online mention of honoring sales, and we are stuck with a $650cdn price hike overnight.

I expect that $500 of that is ns's take, they have to leave a little meat in the bone for tenda, sfrc, etc.

None of this is in dispute. It was all out in the open with actual ordering dealers telling us about it.

Canada may be a unique market, but the acronym DMR and 2" or barrel is not enough to justify what we are seeing, even after the most expensive brokerage and shipping fees your imagination can conjure.
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This is demonstrably not true. Two examples I can think of off the top of my head are IWI Tavors and ATA shotguns. When they took over distribution prices came down, significantly. Again, this is the problem with these sorts of threads, people only have a tiny sliver of information and they make broad generalizations and assumptions based on limited info.

As for how much is NS's take, posting any numbers is total speculation, unless you have inside information as to how much exactly NS is making? Their profit margins aren't generally disclosed at all even to dealers. As for their warranty service, keep in mind that it is generally the cases where service is lacking thay get posted about. When someone gets good service, they usually don't post about it.

Given the original MSRP, it's not surprising that the Canadian retail is close to $2000. It has been quite similar in the past with other US made tactical rifles (i.e. XCR, ACR).

Furthermore, we are not stuck with a $650 price hike. When these rifles were originally submitted for FRT and CanAm announced a target retail of $2000, everyone was happy. Wanstalls jumped the gun and posted a presale without having everything locked down. That is on them, not the company who picked up distribution of the gun.
 
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xdmer said:
I called shenanigans on what went down with M+M, Canada Ammo and Wanstalls, multiple MSRP's. NS has been silent on the matter, the whole thing smells. M+M's public statements are some of the worst I've ever seen from a company.

I've seen repeat behavior in industry I don't like. I'm calling this out as an example, I'm careful with my words, if I make a direct statement, that is what I do. Read the last bit of what I was stating regarding NS and M+M, without the various middle men, NR tax what would equitable pricing be?

Do you remember that M+M had been claiming there was no exclusives, and it would be supplying to dealers? And now what???

Again, there was no accusation. I've posted dealer and msrp pricing that was disclosed to me for discussion, others can work out the roller coaster of MSRP,in Canada, US and US street pricing, for the same rifle.

Why are questions being asked? to clarify! And you're accusing of slander, and calling people names in general.
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I've seen very few honest questions in this thread, and a lot of accusations made without merit. Not calling people names. If I can't justify anything I said that is interpreted as a personal insult I will retract it. Refer to post #458. If you want me to make similar justifications for anything I've said I'm more than happy to.

If you don't like a specific behavior by a specific company, don't buy from them. I'm asking you what equitable margins for the manufacturer, distributor and dealers are? You keep talking about the NR tax and middle men, but where do they fit in? You are the one saying the current pricing structure is unfair, so what's fair? If M+M said they would sell direct it was likely before knowing how much of a PITA ITAR is to deal with. As I said, if you have any specific questions I will answer them.
 
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Ar180shooter , you are wasting your time replying with logic, it does not resonate well. The pitchforks are out and a straw man (love this term used by a one of these raging villagers) needs to be sacrificed, in their eyes.
 
Maybe one of the fanboys can explain how these are a deal at $2300 after tax?
Or is it OK to get ripped off because it's new and shiny?
 
Ar180shooter said:
This is demonstrably not true. Two examples I can think of off the top of my head are IWI Tavors and ATA shotguns. When they took over distribution prices came down, significantly. Again, this is the problem with these sorts of threads, people only have a tiny sliver of information and they make broad generalizations and assumptions based on limited info.

As for how much is NS's take, posting any numbers is total speculation, unless you have inside information as to how much exactly NS is making? Their profit margins aren't generally disclosed at all even to dealers. As for their warranty service, keep in mind that it is generally the cases where service is lacking thay get posted about. When someone gets good service, they usually don't post about it.

Given the original MSRP, it's not surprising that the Canadian retail is close to $2000. It has been quite similar in the past with other US made tactical rifles (i.e. XCR, ACR).

Furthermore, we are not stuck with a $650 price hike. When these rifles were originally submitted for FRT and CanAm announced a target retail of $2000, everyone was happy. Wanstalls jumped the gun and posted a presale without having everything locked down. That is on them, not the comlany who picked up distribution of the gun.
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O really? So do you have the e-mails and documentation to show Wantsalls was a bad actor and jumped a gun? According to them, they had secured pricing and M&M changed their minds. And how do you explain TWO consecutive MSRP price hikes up to the equivalent of $2100 Canadian in a span of 2 weeks?

We all know you are dealer affiliated, so forgive me if we all take your view with a huge grain of salt.

Again, if you have insider information, let's hear it - otherwise your voice & opinion is no more valid than mine.

And for the record, I have personally experience non-existent customer service form NS, as have many others here. But sure. Because you say so, they are a great company to deal with.
 
Why are we still going on and on about this arguing among ourselves?
The retail price will be whatever the retail price will be, people will either buy the rifle or not and many will base that decision on what has transpired here. If the manufacturer and distributor can't be bothered to give us any information in an attempt to smooth things over with some facts then we will never know the whole story. Arguing on here won't change anything, it won't make M+M lower their price, and it won't make NS take better care of it's customers after the sale.
All we are going to do is end up with a grudge against certain people participating in this thread which further breaks down our community.
Buy it or don't buy it, why is everyone so crazy about this? It's just another x39 bullet hose, there are others and there will be more to come.
Time to stop bickering and just move on.
 
Ar180shooter said:
If you don't like a specific behavior by a specific company, don't buy from them.
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This. I will never buy an M&M product just based off their facebook posting betraying their intentions about this rifle, let alone many other issues. They have actually said they are jacking the price to subsidize their US retail market!!! They said this themselves (!) before deleting any trace of it here or on facebook.

I will vote with my feet and wallet - great suggestion.
 
Claven2 said:
O really? So do you have the e-mails and documentation to show Wantsalls was a bad actor and jumped a gun? According to them, they had secured pricing and M&M changed their minds. And how do you explain TWO consecutive MSRP price hikes up to the equivalent of $2100 Canadian in a span of 2 weeks?

We all know you are dealer affiliated, so forgive me if we all take your view with a huge grain of salt.

Again, if you have insider information, let's hear it - otherwise your voice & opinion is no more valid than mine.

And for the record, I have personally experience non-existent customer service form NS, as have many others here. But sure. Because you say so, they are a great company to deal with.
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Wanstalls NEVER received a price number from M+M, according to Wanstalls themselves they were only told they would be open to Distribution Level pricing, but never once said M+M gave them a number for what that was. M+M have said from day one they never set a Canadian MSRP at the time of the Wanstalls pre-sale, and I do believe them in that respect. Wanstalls pricing is in line with what they would believe distribution level pricing would be in the U.S. at the time.
 
Paul_1982 said:
Wanstalls NEVER received a price number from M+M, according to Wanstalls themselves they were only told they would be open to Distribution Level pricing, but never once said M+M gave them a number for what that was. M+M have said from day one they never set a Canadian MSRP at the time of the Wanstalls pre-sale, and I do believe them in that respect. Wanstalls pricing is in line with what they would believe distribution level pricing would be in the U.S. at the time.
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That's not how I saw it play out. WA mad a few statements tp the effect they had pricing and were intimately involved in getting the rifle classed NR (whatever that means), but to get the pre-sale honoured, they retracted a bunch of their statements and made friends with M&M. M&M then promptly threw them under the bus and despite claiming otherwise, are not honouring the pre-sale any longer. There is no further info out there, but before WA was grovelling to M&M, they claimed otherwise.

The facts are simply not out there for all to see, which is part and parcel of why this all stinks to high heaven.
 
There's too many threads on this, but I have posted in other threads quoting exactly what Wanstalls said and what M+M said. Wanstalls NEVER ONCE said they were given a price number from M+M. Zero grovelling, as they have now stated they will not sell any M+M products, and have no loyalty to them. If anything, if you follow the pricing timeline, M+M actually seems credible in their statements on PRICING.
 
Wanstalls was able to source the weapons from the US at a price where they were still making a profit. As there was not going to be a distributor for Canada, instead Mikey Mouse was going to sell to individual dealers as they do in the USA, this was stated by Mikey Mouse himself. Then in came the middle man (who now appears to have been working on it for the last year or so) and the price was changed simple. The ones defending NS and Mikey Mouse are the ones that already jumped on the 1999$ pre-sales, so they feel the need to justify their purchase :)
 
CyprusTM said:
Wanstalls was able to source the weapons from the US at a price where they were still making a profit. As there was not going to be a distributor for Canada, instead Mikey Mouse was going to sell to individual dealers as they do in the USA, this was stated by Mikey Mouse himself. Then in came the middle man (who now appears to have been working on it for the last year or so) and the price was changed simple. The ones defending NS and Mikey Mouse are the ones that already jumped on the 1999$ pre-sales, so they feel the need to justify their purchase :)
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Where were Wanstalls going to source the Canadian model M10X's in the US, before M+M even heard the FRT was approved? They hadn't made or delivered any to any US distributer. They jumped the gun... simple as that. Given the excitement on these at the time, its hard to blame them... but it was their error.
 
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