M10x...
- Thread starter Kingjenky
- Start date
can't flood the market with loans and not expect the dollar to drop and interest rates to climb
economics 101
I guess trudeau didn't take that class, a lot of soccer moms, new Canadians and special interest groups neither. I guess when your interests are what the Kardashians are doing, getting a free ride in a new country, and playing the victim where the world owes you something for whatever reason, who needs economics!
for Can$ to be strong, economy must be real and not virtual aka speculative
Canada has to invest into production and intellectual innovations rather than exporting raw materials for nothing and then buying products produced from those raw materials
Canada is the richest country in the World after Russia in terms of natural resources... and 1st place if you re-calculate it per/ capita (per population),
-why businesses are struggling,
-why so much land and people yet have to buy it,
-why being the richest per capita and yet there are no bank accounts for each citizen to accumulate a portion of exported resources, like in Saudi Arabia,
-why parking is not for free -as it is the second largest country of the World and it is plenty of space?
-why houses are not cheap/ almost for free? and it costs 30K materials 30-60K labour to build a simple house and yet they cost 300-500K to begin with and guess what.. these are not construction workers/ companies which have the biggest speculative piece of it.. guess who has it
-after all, where the F.... money go after resources are stupidly exported? there is enough Gold taken out from the ground, yet it disappears somewhere and Canadian dollar is not a Gold dollar?
-why immigration policy sucks? immigration should bring professionals and not people who are aggressive and cannot even write and read in their own language... and I don't care what color they are and how many hands arms they have, as long as above is met
-why the definition FAMILY is totally lost?
-why government invests into BS like PhD in women's studies-WTF is that? how relevant it is to economy and reality? how will it help most people and economy?
-why people who create/ produce something earn considerably less than basically criminals who create virtual money and make money out of air by sitting on their a55es and who never know that strawberries do not grow on the trees, and how the drill/ hummer looks like?
-why government is investing in God only knows what African countries instead of fixing problems locally? And what are those investments? They give them "fish", instead of teaching "how to fish", of course chronic "fish giving" creates perfect milieu for corruption and money sucking, we know that.
Why, why why?
but... no... most people know/ feel why... and it is a bit too late to change anything... but there is still a small chance
unfortunately, conservatives are screwed up as they are another wing if liberal
it is nice and easy to give Russian people anti-Western hysteria and Americans anti-Russian hysteria-it is so easy to explain why they are living worse and worse each year... of course it is not virtual speculative global economy.. it is the neighbour next door who is guilty in all mishaps-such an easy BS propaganda isn't it?
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And now our energy exports are in trouble, so we aren't even getting the maximum benefit from sale these raw materials. We need economic activity that actually generates added value.
Anyway the M10x looks like an interesting rifle.
I'd certainly like to see one.
But is one worth more than 2k to me? I doubt it.
Anyway the M10x looks like an interesting rifle.
I'd certainly like to see one.
But is one worth more than 2k to me? I doubt it.
Ahh.. It was only a matter of time before somebody used the good old "AK's cant shlt" argument.
I did not expect it would come from somebody of your experience though.
First, AK's issued to regular soldiers by a 1st world country are just as accurate as AR's, if both rifles are in similar condition and use the same quality ammo. This is a FACT.
Second, even if you were blind to the fact above, there is a thing called practical accuracy. Do you honestly believe that whether an assault rifle is 2MOA or 4MOA makes ANY DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER on the battlefield? There was a report released by some US Government agency a few years ago that stated that US soldiers use an average of something like 240,000 rounds of ammunition per every enemy combatant killed. This applies to some of the best-trained soldiers in the world, using the most modern equipment that includes rifles that are allegedly a gold standard for assault rifle accuracy. Do you think that using a 4MOA rifle instead would increase that number to 480,000 rounds per enemy killed?
If anything, it would actually increase the hit probability, because on a 2-way range the soldiers don't typically have time or the mental strength to aim accurately (as you would do on a 1-way range). Hence the ridiculous number of rounds used. So if you have a pin-point accurate rifle and shoot 4 inches off the target, then you will miss. If, on the other hand, your rifle is not as accurate, then the same shot actually has a probability to hit.
Bottom line, assault rifle accuracy is almost completely irrelevant 99% of the time when used in combat. That's why the militaries that issue AK's don't waste money on higher quality ammo (which is the real reason behind "AK's are not accurate" myth).
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so we are back to M10x problem:
presumably this platform combined the best things from both rifles, hopefully they removed crazy AR butplate spring (mm crap which flies out on disassembly) and simplified the bolt carrier to be one piece and eliminated this crap:
seriously compare the following:
and now this:
bolt carrier, charging handle-one single piece of good metal=ultimate engineering beauty no crazy ####ty screws to bolt carrier
Hopefully it is clear, which one is simple and reliable and which one is subject to failures
The problem with M10X is not even its crazy 2000 price, but the fact that M10X was not and is not and will unlikely be service rifle-so less stress, less reliability to begin with..
ANYBODY has a close look of M10X bolt carrier?
Is it this one:
Yes, this is the M10X Bolt Carrier Group. There are other photos of in another thread from the recent North Sylva Booking Day. An interesting fact is that the M10X actually has considerably less parts than an AKM. It is even more simple in its construction, using the refined long-stroke piston operation of the SIG 550 series.
I think that despite their questionable buisness practices, M+M have a winner of a hybrid rifle design. As a result, I have no hesitation in predicting that a lot of folks are going to be impressed by the M10X when it finally reaches Canadian hands early next year. There is no reason to expect that all of the very positive US reviews are shilling for M+M, therefore it stands to reason that it is a pretty impressive rifle - just like the CGNers who got to handle one at the Northe SylVA event have confirmed.
I'm not one to slag the AK, I even bought a T81 and have shot lots of AK's. They are an iconic design and a great rifle generally, but... almost all the current AK variants shoot 5.45mm and run stamped and riveted receivers little different than a 1960's era AKM. I love the rifle and it's design, it has many advantages over competing designs, but it's not as accurate as an AR design in my experience.
Virtually all of them (the AK12 excepted, but it's hardly issued in any numbers) have a tangent sight and a short sight radius. On sight radius alone, there is no contest - an AR will shoot better with irons in the hands of the vast majority of shooters.
The AR has other advantages, like drop free mags, but on the accuracy claim alone - the AR's receiver is rigid and has no reciprocating mass over the barrel. An AK has lots of reciprocating mass out over the muzzle, making it inherently less stable unless shot from a rest. The receiver also flexes appreciably more during firing, adding an instability pulse to the action cycle. High speed film footage has long ago proved this as fact.
An AK is accurate enough, if well made and reasonably well maintained - but the average AR will shoot more accurately most of the time. Even comparing regular rack grade issue guns in a first world army.
It seems like you completely missed the point of my post. Did you stop reading after the part that you quoted? Assault rifle "accuracy" is almost completely irrelevant on the battlefield.
Have you ever shot an AK with match grade ammo, from a good rest with a high powered scope? My guess is that you haven't (probably because match grade AK ammo simply doesn't exist). Neither have I. So how can I judge it's inherent accuracy? But again, even if that was the case (AR's being more accurate), it makes NO DIFFERENCE for it's intended purpose. ZERO.
Are AR's sights better suited for precision shooting? Absolutely. Do precision sights make sense for an assault rifle in combat? Absolutely not.
AK's sights (and shorter sight radius) provide faster target acquisition, better sight picture and situational awareness. These benefits are FAR more useful in combat than ability to shoot a slightly more accurately.
Both are good rifles, have their advantages and serve their purpose well. But saying that one is better than other because it's more accurate is like saying that one vehicle mounted HMG is better than another because it's easier to carry around. Or that one F-Class competition rifle is better than other because it's more reliable after being dropped in a mud pile... And so on.
The pros and cons of both platforms are often greatly exaggerated by the fanoboys on both sides. Ak's are not "minute of barn", just like AR's won't stop cycling if somebody wet farts on it.
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Lol, That spring is for the captured rear take down pin detent. You could remove it and throw it away and the rifle would still function. You really should try to learn something about the rifle you are trying to bash. You're coming off as very ignorant and you're not convincing anyone that a spring that is there as a convenience feature is a negative to the rifles reliability.
Interesting, I didn't know that Russians had different eyes than North Americans, Russia must also have a better education system since that wasn't covered here. I wonder if that's why I have a harder time shooting my T-81 than I do an AR with iron sights. I must have the wrong eyes.
Dude, you're really grasping at straws trying to prove that a gun we aren't allowed to shoot in Canada is better than everything else. Even if you were right which I don't think you are it doesn't matter because we live in Canada where the AK is PROHIBITED.
Just give up already. Go troll the airsoft sites or something.
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the rifle should not have details, which you can through away and it will still function
I know enough AR = enough to bash crazy engineering ideas, compared to AK.
That spring is just an example
Look at the bolt carrier-WhyTF there are screws on it? You think it is a good design to screw something on the bolt carrier?
why it is combined of so many pieces?
eat it, I am not concentrated on that spring only, look at bolt comparison posted previously, who is ignorant after that? go and love your ferrari aka AR-15, I will love my tank aka AK47/74 (if only I can have it...). I admit positive things about AR and how M10x tried to integrate those into AK platform; you even didn't read all my posts but acuse me of ignorance, blinded by your AR-15 love.. WTF, man?
We are discussing M10x as approximation to AK with best elements from AR, that's why we are discussing AK
Go tell your mother AK is prohibited, we all know it.
Apparently Russians shoot better with AK style sights as nobody in Russia likes crazy peepers, which limit your field of view
Something wrong with airsoft? Who r u to send me there? Get lost.
This is airsoft-derived firetag game in Russia, available not to army only, but to civilians, just so you realize the progress, while you are sitting on this forum:
To previous posters.
And yes in close combat <300-500m 3moa vs 5 moa-who cares and for high distances the .223 power is lost, sure it may be still much more precise than AK, I don't care
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You know nothing about AR's and based on your comments and posts you apparently know nothing about the M10x either. How about you do a little research and actually learn something before you come and try to tell everyone how poorly engineered everything is if it's not an AK. Your precious AK is a good rifle and was a good design 68 years ago but as with everything designs evolve and even though they may become more complex that doesn't mean they are not as good or not as reliable.
The only thing you're right about is that at 300-500 meters it makes little difference when in combat but since we are talking about civilian rifles in this thread it starts to make a difference as some guys like to actually see a little bit of a consistent pattern when they are shooting at targets or steel plates. Oh wait, can't shoot an AK in Canada so you have no accuracy to report other than what's reported from other countries or what you claim to shoot that can't be verified.
cr5-don't know what you are writing, you r in my ignore list, I recommend you to add me to that list too, so we are free from each other company.
I will not edit my post-if banned-ok, no problem, I didn't start "ignorance" accusations and go personal, until somebody kicks me
I hope the thread is not locked.
I do not bash AR, I am criticizing bad things about it, which M+M tried to fix
The following good things are taken from AK:
1. bolt/ carrier simplicity
2. ak47 round/ mag compatibility
3. crazy AR charging handle is now new AK-style ambi-dextrous
The following good things taken from AR:
1. barrel and receiver carrying optics-one piece-maybe the best piece of AR; optic mounting options, co-witnessing was the weakest AK point, for sure
2. safety is more ergonomic now due to AR, it is also ambidextrous. New AK series has nice safety-no hand to be removed from the pistol grip, but making that ambi will look very cumbersome IMHO. I hope M+M makes EUROPEAN style safety aka arrow pointing to the range=shooting, up, auto and backwards=safe, after all that's logical, just like safety in T81-it is bulky , but directions are right, the AR style safety is always on the way of my thumb when in fire position and counterintuitive for most of the planet
I guess gas regulator comes from FAL and the front grip is due to FAL too
This is not complete list by itself
Hopefully it will be as reliable/ simple as AK and as ergonomic/ functional for the most part as AR
I will not edit my post-if banned-ok, no problem, I didn't start "ignorance" accusations and go personal, until somebody kicks me
I hope the thread is not locked.
I do not bash AR, I am criticizing bad things about it, which M+M tried to fix
The following good things are taken from AK:
1. bolt/ carrier simplicity
2. ak47 round/ mag compatibility
3. crazy AR charging handle is now new AK-style ambi-dextrous
The following good things taken from AR:
1. barrel and receiver carrying optics-one piece-maybe the best piece of AR; optic mounting options, co-witnessing was the weakest AK point, for sure
2. safety is more ergonomic now due to AR, it is also ambidextrous. New AK series has nice safety-no hand to be removed from the pistol grip, but making that ambi will look very cumbersome IMHO. I hope M+M makes EUROPEAN style safety aka arrow pointing to the range=shooting, up, auto and backwards=safe, after all that's logical, just like safety in T81-it is bulky , but directions are right, the AR style safety is always on the way of my thumb when in fire position and counterintuitive for most of the planet
I guess gas regulator comes from FAL and the front grip is due to FAL too
This is not complete list by itself
Hopefully it will be as reliable/ simple as AK and as ergonomic/ functional for the most part as AR
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r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
You realize ak bolts need to be re headspaced to individual rifles right whereas in spec ars don't it's a drop in. So much for the simplicity...
Round capability... meh. I don't want to be hit by either. And anytime a 556 nation went against a 7.62x39 nation they've won...
Crazy ar charge handle... I need to consume meth before comprehending this one.
Peeps vs notch. Peeps offer greater accuracy. Notch can offer slightly faster speed. But peeps usually have a distinct advantage on accuracy. Hence why biathlon(yes even russian) rifles utilize peeps.
As for russian eyes. Funny how the fsb alpha boys with their m4 pattern carbines rock peep buis. Guess they are no longer ruskies.
As for the gun. Unproven. It was interesting. The company turned out to be a slimeball. And the price is hilarious.
Agreed, I can just personally think of better ways to spend $2000 since I'm not a huge fan of x39 and after the CEO of the company made such disgusting and ignorant comments.
When I think of shooting 7.62x39 I think of mediocre accuracy no matter what the platform since I'm only going to shoot the cheapest surplus so $2k feels like a lot of money in that regard. I may change my mind though after these are in country and I can handle one and maybe shoot one before committing to one.
If they made a rifle like the M10x in 300BLK I'd be a lot more interested. I've owned four rifles (still have two) in 300BLK and they have all been capable of around 1 moa and two of them were sub 1 moa. Reliable, versatile, and accurate is a great combination and since I handload the cost is not really a concern.
I'm looking forward to some reviews and range reports from Canadians, maybe I can be swayed.
Mark, the offer still stands to come out to my place and do some shooting, before and/or after you get your m10x. Pavement all the way from Edmonton to my driveway and you can drive your van right onto my range so no worries about access, definitely more fun than shooting at Genessee (just got some more steel as well). Previous owner also installed a ramp to the front door of the house for his wife so all good in all aspects.
Wow. #condescending.
Of course I read your post, and by the way, nobody but you said the AK was minute of barn.
YES I have shot AK's with what I would consider match grade ammo - basically well made reloads. What of it? And "high power scope" - are you effing kidding? It's not a dragunov. I've used up to 6X from a bench, if you care. Many of us spend a good deal of time in the USA and actually do get to try these things out instead of reading on the interwebz.
You have not done the things you claim this platform can do. That's all I need to know. You said it yourself: "Neither have I".
When someone claims something ridiculous, as you have, then the burden of proof is on that person, not the person calling out your BS-ery. That is how fact checking works.
I don't take umbrage with most of your postings, but telling everyone the AK is as inherently accurate as a DI system betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of physics, mechanical engineering and firearms mechanics.
But by all means, dig yourself deeper...
